25-01-2005 21:36									#31
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I think the sooner RP have some cities to show on Legoland, the better - and preferably protected by GS borders. ND would know they couldn't knock out RP in a flash. OTOH, is it safe for them to cross the ocean yet?

	25-01-2005 21:42									#32
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from the save:
- Tempest is not being bothered by the mob bug, it does not give a bonus when it shouldn't.

- We would need 3 subs to make sure ND (or GoW) has to attack us first, before being able to attack RP in Santa Barbara. With 1 more sub (so 4 total), we could also block entrance to San Diego, so they can't use marines on RP.
I think this is worth it, for 400 shields and 4 gpt, we are certain they are not going to receive a happiness bonus.

- This leads to the following (you can make that another question if you like): Are we giong to pre-emptively strike ND, in case we see a fleet of transports leaving Bob?

- Borcem is at distance 21 like calculated. (0 shields collected)
- Killdaria is at distance 22. Sabotage cost = 5412 safely. shields collected = 264)

- other cities with many shields present:
Sipahiab: cost = 4500. dist= 15, shields = 222
Sullaban: cost = 3064. dist = 16, shields = 150
There are other ND cities, with costs < 2000 (~100 shields).
the only thing which is expensive enough to build in these cities are nuke plants. BBs don't build too well in inland cities. These might be prebuilds, e.g for the internet and SETI
- GoW cities are all (except Killdaria of course) below 100 shields.

- GoW is, as far as I can tell, out of mob. I couldn't find a single tile which gave a bonus, however if they would be building civ defenses everywhere, it wouldn't show. My guess is they are out of mob, though.

DeepO

	25-01-2005 21:45									#33
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RP can transport safely. However they are far from prepared, I guess. We would need to get them a plan on where they can settle... Aeson, ideas? I don't care if they get all the cities, apart from the rubber perhaps. Further, there is no reall need to move them completely off Stormia, if we get Santa Barbara, we can mount our own defense against GoW.

DeepO

	25-01-2005 21:51									#34
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something else: neither GoW, nor ND have build a single radar tower yet. They don't need the defense against each other.

DeepO

	25-01-2005 22:08									#35
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- would ND and GoW be building Manhatten's yet?

- last comment for the moment: we might have some success to, when we know we'll be attacked, disrupt the lux flow to ND. At any rate, it is best that we break the lux deals in our turn, so they can't compensate with the slider. We might even trigger some meltdowns (which would be very cool)

DeepO

	25-01-2005 23:22									#36
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I think we have to declare war the turn ND puts out to sea with it's Transports. They need 1 turn exposure to land on us. Also if we declare war we are losing 3 luxuries, but can compensate with the luxury slider. Having war declared on us we lose 3 luxuries, get negative war weariness, but have no chance to use the luxury slider.

	25-01-2005 23:40									#37
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How did they get out MoB? If they did a fake war, I thought that was a no no?

Getting out of MoB sugest they are not planning on joining in a war against us, does it not?

	25-01-2005 23:46									#38
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12*8 is 96. This is only for current numbers, but if they continue building Transports, Tanks, and Marines the basic premise remains unchanged.

ND Forces:

3 Settler
38 Worker
20 Marine (+8)
14 Cavalry
64 Infantry
40 Tank (+2)
1 Mech Infantry
1 Frigate
17 Transports (+3)
1 Sub
5 Destroyer
1 Battleship
18 Bomber
4 Ansar

If they bring 96 units over that leaves them with 44 units on Bob and their 3 Infantry on Lego. 29 cities on Bob means 1-2 defenders per.

	25-01-2005 23:54									#39
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 How did they get out MoB? If they did a fake war, I thought that was a no no? Getting out of MoB sugest they are not planning on joining in a war against us, does it not?

DeepO is right, they only have half the shields I thought they did. So they could have used a Civil Defense build as a prebuild for 2 turns and then switched to the UN.

They don't have the terrain for 134spt that would be required to get to a 2 turn 264. Max I can put them at with no MoB bug and no corruption would be 112spt. Unless it's the FP they have corruption. So 264/3=88. That puts them on pace for 9 more turns of production. They have 1 turn before we get our next, so effectively 8 turns compared to our 8 turns. Since our turn comes first we could still build the UN.

	25-01-2005 23:58									#40
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Here's the screenshot of Candri that I took and forgot to post:



3 DD.
12 Transports.
13 Infantry.

	26-01-2005 00:01									#41
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So ND is mobilized, right?

	26-01-2005 00:18									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson 12*8 is 96.

Hum... this is correct. However what do you mean? We have 12 transports, ND has 17. They will need one or two for a chain, but is there anything else?

quote: This is only for current numbers, but if they continue building Transports, Tanks, and Marines the basic premise remains unchanged. ND Forces: 3 Settler 38 Worker 20 Marine (+8) 14 Cavalry 64 Infantry 40 Tank (+2) 1 Mech Infantry 1 Frigate 17 Transports (+3) 1 Sub 5 Destroyer 1 Battleship 18 Bomber 4 Ansar If they bring 96 units over that leaves them with 44 units on Bob and their 3 Infantry on Lego. 29 cities on Bob means 1-2 defenders per.

Well, as said, they can transport more units. They've got enough transports to transport nearly everything.

Okay, at least 1 transport is currently on the other side of Bob, out of position, as it has dropped of the settlers and infs. But is there something else I'm missing?

DeepO

	26-01-2005 00:22									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson DeepO is right, they only have half the shields I thought they did. So they could have used a Civil Defense build as a prebuild for 2 turns and then switched to the UN. They don't have the terrain for 134spt that would be required to get to a 2 turn 264. Max I can put them at with no MoB bug and no corruption would be 112spt. Unless it's the FP they have corruption. So 264/3=88. That puts them on pace for 9 more turns of production. They have 1 turn before we get our next, so effectively 8 turns compared to our 8 turns. Since our turn comes first we could still build the UN.

Aeson, there are other options. Let's wait a turn, with the sabotage cost we can calculate precisely how much spt they will be making next turn.

One of the options would be that they only came out of mob last turn, so had 1 turn with, one turn without mob. Or, the city grew, took other tiles, etc. 115 spt down to 88 just because of corruption seems an awfull lot for a city so closed to their capital

DeepO

	26-01-2005 00:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 How did they get out MoB? If they did a fake war, I thought that was a no no?

No rules have been made, and having to stay in mob because of Lego putting their settlers on a cruise around the world is not the best thing either. But I think they might have warned us.

quote: Getting out of MoB sugest they are not planning on joining in a war against us, does it not?

Yes and no. It implies they did not want to go straight for us (which they couldn't anyway, we are much stronger than them certainly on our own terrain). They might need the time to start, or build 2 buildings: nuke plants, and research ...things... (forgot the name). And build stuff that was left behind when going to war with Lego, of course.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 00:28									#45
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Candri: that is some major information, Aeson! That's where your 12 transports come from!

Yes, ND is mobilized, no doubt about that.

They are running 90% science too... they were going for rocketry, right? This UN might simply be a Manhattan prebuild. We could be facing nukes very soon.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 00:31									#46
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Can cruise missiles and tactical nukes reach WW or OG from Candri?

DeepO

	26-01-2005 00:39									#47
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If so, there might be a thing we need to do. I was checking the prices for stealing techs, and so far we can have a immediate steal of ND's techs, but nothing more. We might need to adjust that, so that we too can build Manhattan (we can now), and if needed steal rocketry from ND, react with nukes of our own. If they are going to use them, they will take out a city of ours, put their whole invasion force in it (so they will be landed, but have no roads to travel on), and assume we'll be using all our tanks on their invasion force (which will be in a city). If we however could nuke them in our city, we only have to move our troops over the sea, and without the risk of too many nukes hitting us, we can take out large parts of ND.

That would be fun

This changes a lot of things, most of all what role GoW is going to play. MZ told us that ND would be going for the UN, which makes no sense anymore. ND is prebuilding something in Sipahiab (ot 100% certain now, but next turn we'll know). It makes sense that GoW knows this, and have a general idea on their plans...

So, either we can ask GoW for further information, or we must start to shut up completely, and assume that this is a 2 vs 1 coming up.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 01:03									#49
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Tactical nukes have a bombard range of 6. That means they could hit Monsoon from Luxilou, or "collateral" WW and OG from Candri by placing it inbetween them.

A nuclear sub, which they are building at least one of in Luxilou, can carry a tactical nuke and effectively extends the range by 4 tiles if spotted, or 4 tiles per turn if not.

	26-01-2005 01:34									#51
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You've got to give it to us: instead of preparing how to defend ourselves, we're looking at ways of taking the whole of ND in 1 turn

so... 8 settlers, right? and let's say 60 inf (will be MI by that time), so something like 80 tanks, or better yet 100 tanks.

Aeson, I think I read your screenshots relatively well, but to be certain you might need to put some text with it as well.

I can't wait to get attacked

DeepO

	26-01-2005 02:22									#52
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We won't ever have enough to take out all of ND, but we could definitely do some damage. There are 3 targets that we couldn't reach without Cavalry.

I'll go over the odds city by city later, but on average we'd need 5 Tanks per MI. 2-3 for those in flatland towns, up to 10 for those in Hill metros (Alumbul, Reki). That puts us at 5-10 Tanks per town, or with 100 Tanks (MI can fill in too against Infantry) we could take out 10-20 cities.

We also need ~10 Marines per MI in a town. With 3 CV of Bombers we could get that down to 1 transport or so. Luxilou had 1 Infantry in it, and there are 13 Infantry in Candri, so it might be possible that we'd only be facing 1 Infantry per town if we avoid the important centers.

	26-01-2005 02:35									#53
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Why would we need Manhatten? If anyone builds it all can make nukes, if they have Uranium, right?

	26-01-2005 02:37									#54
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Has ND had its GA?

	26-01-2005 02:37									#55
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The fleet position was chosen to keep it as far from ND as possible to keep it from being spotted or attacked. It has 3 options to retreat back into a city if we need the units on the homeland or need to get the ships to safety. Realistically we can get about 10 Transports and 10 more to chain with but it will take at least a few turns to get the ships back from the chain on the E side.

The carrier group position was chosen to keep it in range of bombarding ND's fleet if it leaves Candri, is outside the bomber range of any ND land tile, and is outside the 1 turn range of any ND ships from any port. It has 2 options to retreat back into a city if necessary for protection. It can bomb Neu Mavsu by moving to the noted bombing position.

Chain Fleet is 5 tiles from the Invasion force and 5 tiles from Neu Mavsu. Pretty self explanitary. 10 Transports and our cover ships here.

Chain Fleet 2 is optional, and probably should be very limited. At most we'd want 2 Transports here in case Flateria is wide open and Neu Mavsu would be too tough for us to take with Marines. If we get 2 Transports of mostly Tanks to Flateria we could get to Neu Mavsu with a Settler and break through the rest of our units that way.

We'd also want 2, maybe more, Transports that can chain units on demand from Stormia to the invasion force site. 2 of those ccould be produced the turn of the invasion if necessary, from OG and Bolderberg.

So basically we would shoot for something around: (minimum)

4 CVs
16 Bombers
24 Transports
3 Settlers
16 Marines (as many produced the invasion turn as possible)
60 Tanks

	26-01-2005 02:45									#56
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One thing that occurs to me is that if we do land on Bob and go for ND, we will then be in an all out war with GoW as well, won't we?

I can't image them sitting around with us have massive troops on Bob. If we were to smash ND, they would need to act for fear of us going all the way or getting to strong.

	26-01-2005 02:52									#57
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As for naval escort ships, we can get 6 BBs down there in 5 turns I think. We have 6-7 Subs available next turn that could make it in the same timeframe, or are already there. We'll need to switch from Subs to Transports to get the numbers of those we need though. There are 4 DD's to our S that are sweeping to the poles, so they can definitely make it too. I don't think we should stack many ships with the chainers, and the invasion fleet only needs a sub clearer (and spotter) because we will have ample warning time. The Carrier group is also safe with a Sub and DD if we keep Sub lookouts around ND's coast. So the bulk of our Navy (can still be covering ND's fleet in Candri.

We should take back the Galley down there. It's a possible chaining risk that ND will be accounting for and it didn't give us any warning anyways. If it's gone they may not have as many defenders down there. We can also upgrade the Galley for 1 more Transport. Same deal with the Galley up near GoW.

	26-01-2005 03:02									#58
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 One thing that occurs to me is that if we do land on Bob and go for ND, we will then be in an all out war with GoW as well, won't we?

Well, we have to do what we have to do. If we let ND invade and don't hurt their production advantage we will lose. If ND is coming, there is a good chance GoW is with them. If GoW isn't with them... well it would be a tasty target to GoW too. We can't hold Bob, GoW might be able to, especially if we break ND's spine.

quote: I can't image them sitting around with us have massive troops on Bob. If we were to smash ND, they would need to act for fear of us going all the way or getting to strong.

This won't be like Lego. I'm pretty sure if we do break through we are going to be losing more units than we kill. Anything left after our strike will be easy pickings for ND. Everything we send over is a loss.

We could pillage enough possibly to keep ND from landing their invasion and hitting ours with it. In that case maybe we can get RP in on this to use their Conqs. RP will take 6-7 turns to get their Transports down there, but if we could hold a city for a turn or two they could land them running and do quite a bit of damage themselves. Lets tell RP to send all their Conqs in Transports S along our coast. Conqs don't really even count as a sea wall anyways.

	26-01-2005 03:31									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Well, we have to do what we have to do. If we let ND invade and don't hurt their production advantage we will lose. If ND is coming, there is a good chance GoW is with them. If GoW isn't with them... well it would be a tasty target to GoW too. We can't hold Bob, GoW might be able to, especially if we break ND's spine.

Yup, no doubt we have to do it if they are coming.

	26-01-2005 04:17									#60
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quote: Lets tell RP to send all their Conqs in Transports S along our coast. Conqs don't really even count as a sea wall anyways.

Will Do. I expect they'll relish the chance to run around their old stomping grounds on Bob, especially after missing out on Lego. Is there anything we can say yet on them getting cities on Lego, or on getting a settler into our core?