26-01-2005 04:33									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson We won't ever have enough to take out all of ND, but we could definitely do some damage. There are 3 targets that we couldn't reach without Cavalry.

That doesn't matter. If we can take out only a few cities, and e.g. their FP, their attack on our lands will stop. In a way, this is better than going for an outright kill, because if ND is not able to recover, there is no need to return whatever is left from their invasion force either, and we will be equally damaged by them.

quote: I'll go over the odds city by city later, but on average we'd need 5 Tanks per MI. 2-3 for those in flatland towns, up to 10 for those in Hill metros (Alumbul, Reki). That puts us at 5-10 Tanks per town, or with 100 Tanks (MI can fill in too against Infantry) we could take out 10-20 cities.

I'm not sure we can get to 100 tanks. I'm positive we need a lot on Bob, but keep GoW, and possibly Lego in mind. We need some tanks on Stormia as well. If we can put 60 tanks on ND soil, I think we would do very well.

quote: We also need ~10 Marines per MI in a town. With 3 CV of Bombers we could get that down to 1 transport or so. Luxilou had 1 Infantry in it, and there are 13 Infantry in Candri, so it might be possible that we'd only be facing 1 Infantry per town if we avoid the important centers.

They have enough cash to upgrade everything. The only reason not to upgrade right now, is if they want to keep their strength down, hiding their intentions. Even with all their infs upgraded we would currently be stronger, but every little thing helps. However, I'm pretty sure that they are briefed by GoW that we have a spy, and know their exact strength.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 04:35									#62
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Why would we need Manhatten? If anyone builds it all can make nukes, if they have Uranium, right?

wasn't that a small wonder?

quote: Has ND had its GA?

Yes, plenty of Ansar wins in the Bobian war.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 04:38									#63
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Manhatten is a great wonder. It allows every civ with the tech and resource requirements to build Nukes.

	26-01-2005 04:39									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson So basically we would shoot for something around: (minimum) 4 CVs 16 Bombers 24 Transports 3 Settlers 16 Marines (as many produced the invasion turn as possible) 60 Tanks

What is a realistical time frame to get this built, and into position? Also, what time frame do we expect for the attack?

I propose to pick a small city, and investigate it every turn from now on. A size 1 city won't cost us a lot, and will make it possible to see their slider position. If that drops to 80%, we're not sure, but if it drops to 70%, we can be reasonably sure that one turn later their invasion either sails, or tries to land. I know it's not perfect at all, but with minimal cost we can have some info.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 04:39									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Manhatten is a great wonder. It allows every civ with the tech and resource requirements to build Nukes.

In that case, forget I mentioned it.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 04:45									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson As for naval escort ships, we can get 6 BBs down there in 5 turns I think. We have 6-7 Subs available next turn that could make it in the same timeframe, or are already there. We'll need to switch from Subs to Transports to get the numbers of those we need though. There are 4 DD's to our S that are sweeping to the poles, so they can definitely make it too. I don't think we should stack many ships with the chainers, and the invasion fleet only needs a sub clearer (and spotter) because we will have ample warning time. The Carrier group is also safe with a Sub and DD if we keep Sub lookouts around ND's coast. So the bulk of our Navy (can still be covering ND's fleet in Candri.

Definately agree. We need navy, but not more than ND has and can build. And subs are ideal spotters-clearers, only problem being that they don't reach that far (but if not going in a straight line, that is not a problem for our transports)

quote: We should take back the Galley down there. It's a possible chaining risk that ND will be accounting for and it didn't give us any warning anyways. If it's gone they may not have as many defenders down there. We can also upgrade the Galley for 1 more Transport. Same deal with the Galley up near GoW.

We can take the galleys, but only after we've got subs in place, preferably subs that ND has spotted (which is so as of this turn, right? Don't know the exact positions where you moved to). They did have limited purpose because they were on sentry, we can't get them out without a credible scout in place, or ND will suspect something.
I think one of the main things with this, is that we know have the possibility to make it a surprise attack. We should do all we can to keep them from knowing what we're planning. Upgrading galleys to transports, or building extra transports is not looking good at all, and if possible should be avoided as much as possible. Building extra navy is normal, certainly when it consists of a couple of BBs and subs.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 04:48									#67
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quote: Will Do. I expect they'll relish the chance to run around their old stomping grounds on Bob, especially after missing out on Lego. Is there anything we can say yet on them getting cities on Lego, or on getting a settler into our core?

Ask them to drop off a Settler on their way. The most easily defended tiles would be down S as most of our fleet will be down there. They aren't as apt to being polluted either. I would say the Game tile by Cyclone is the best place for their Settler as even if pollution hits, it doesn't hurt much.

I would be fine with giving everything we have on Lego other than RSE and a town to claim the Uranium with to RP.

	26-01-2005 04:54									#68
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The note to RP should say East coast. It would take them several turns to go down our West coast plus it would be visible to GoW and ND if they did.

	26-01-2005 04:55									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Well, we have to do what we have to do. If we let ND invade and don't hurt their production advantage we will lose. If ND is coming, there is a good chance GoW is with them. If GoW isn't with them... well it would be a tasty target to GoW too. We can't hold Bob, GoW might be able to, especially if we break ND's spine.

We have to be realistic here. If ND attacks, it won't be without the support of GoW. Maybe GoW does not land troops in the first turn, in which case we might have an opening: we ask them to switch alliances. If they do, great, we divide Bob amongst ourselves. If they don't switch alliances, we hurt ND as badly as we can, and if GoW lands we delay them as much as possible (e.g. starting by destroying Santa something, the RP city next to them so they don't have a city they can invade with marines in one turn)

quote: This won't be like Lego. I'm pretty sure if we do break through we are going to be losing more units than we kill. Anything left after our strike will be easy pickings for ND. Everything we send over is a loss.

I definately agree. No need to bring any defenders with us, we only need tanks. We are not going to keep a spearhead, we are not going to have a presence on Bob for more than 1 turn (except if we could sway GoW in our favour, but even then there is a good option ND will be attacking us first, as they are immediately after us in turn order)

quote: We could pillage enough possibly to keep ND from landing their invasion and hitting ours with it. In that case maybe we can get RP in on this to use their Conqs. RP will take 6-7 turns to get their Transports down there, but if we could hold a city for a turn or two they could land them running and do quite a bit of damage themselves. Lets tell RP to send all their Conqs in Transports S along our coast. Conqs don't really even count as a sea wall anyways.

RP coming over is okay, maybe they can help. However if we ask them to sail in the sea in between us and Bob, we will give way of what we are planning. This cannot happen! They have to take the long route, at first pretending they are going over to Lego, rounding our cape, and approaching ND from the S, not the E.

Oh, and conqs only count as sea wall, to civs which have no marines. Lego is still out there.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 04:59									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson The note to RP should say East coast. It would take them several turns to go down our West coast plus it would be visible to GoW and ND if they did.

cross posting as usual

maybe we can just offer them everything right now. However, do we want their current cities? Or, do we e.g. want to have the Santa city for ourselves, forcing GoW to attack us before they can attack RP?

I'm still very much in favour of asking GoW if they could give rubber to RP, and ask RP to upgrade all their infs before sailing. But we can't have this message constructed in 10 minutes, we need to think on the precise tone. GoW diplomacy is going to be very tricky.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 05:01									#71
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We can fill the conqs slots with our Workers for that sea "wall" purpose. Also, with GoW and us where we are Lego's N Transports shouldn't last more than another 2-3 turns. GoW has at least 1 DD moving E above RP, we have 2 BB, 2 Sub, and a DD sweeping N between RP and Vox, and GoW presumably has ships moving W above Vox. So the room to hide is rather small up there.

	26-01-2005 05:02									#72
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In case of an attack, we can be sure ND would also prioritize our rubber and uranium source, especially because we only have 1 of each and both are not on Stormia. I'm half considering to give these to RP, and tell them that we don't care whatever they do, as long as they put 60% of their troops on the rubber, and 30% on the uranium. And give both to us, of course. At the very least, it will require ND or GoW to divert more troops to these cities than would be possible if we were holding them, as we can't afford to send many MI to Legoland.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 05:04									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson The note to RP should say East coast. It would take them several turns to go down our West coast plus it would be visible to GoW and ND if they did.

Doh!

	26-01-2005 05:05									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson We can fill the conqs slots with our Workers for that sea "wall" purpose. Also, with GoW and us where we are Lego's N Transports shouldn't last more than another 2-3 turns. GoW has at least 1 DD moving E above RP, we have 2 BB, 2 Sub, and a DD sweeping N between RP and Vox, and GoW presumably has ships moving W above Vox. So the room to hide is rather small up there.

Yes, but it is the South I'm more worried about. GoW can't be hunting Lego down there, and AFAIS we don't have a lot of hunters either. And ND will offer safe haven before detroying Lego.

Maybe we can launch an appeal the moment we destroy their Northern fleet, to stop the madness and simply resign instead of only staying around to pester us. It has been a couple of turns now, if they lose most of their transports, they are not going to recover anyway.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 05:06									#75
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That would work for me. Plus it would give RP the Rubber for a turn, so they could upgrade, start builds, and then send it to us.

	26-01-2005 05:08									#76
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Hum, CH, better correct that PM. RP is perfectly able to sail the other way, they haven't been focused at all, and are oinly around to do us a favour. I can't imagine that Togas still has his heart with this game, nor that any roleplaying exists in their forum. If we point it out step by step, they sometimes do not listen even...

DeepO

	26-01-2005 05:09									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson That would work for me. Plus it would give RP the Rubber for a turn, so they could upgrade, start builds, and then send it to us.

That is a good thing, but I would still ask GoW for the rubber. After all, we did pay for it. And if they hesitate, we know where they stand as well.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 05:25									#78
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Thanks CH

DeepO

	26-01-2005 05:43									#79
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Could we e.g. agree that next turn, we give RP everything except 1 harbor city (to unload forces in, e.g. New Inchon), and the rubber city for certain?
In the mean time, we ask GoW if they are willing to give RP rubber.
We wait until RP has some defenders over on their new territory, at which time we give them the rubber city as well.

BTW, they might need to perform a palace jump, in case they are keeping (part of) their Estonian territory. Otherwise, Legoland is only good for drafting.

We do need a decision on what to do with Estonia. I think that our main reason to get rid of them is the city near to GoW. If we take that in possession, it won't matter to us that there are another 4 RP cities on Estonia. So I'd say we keep them here. Let them build a FP asap, palace jump to Legoland, and have two reasonably cores. With a bit of effort, they could surpass Vox

DeepO

	26-01-2005 05:44									#80
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only exception is if we can draft fast in RP cities (e.g. Abilene).

DeepO

	26-01-2005 05:45									#81
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To clarify - we paid for 20 turns of rubber from GoW, but what happened to it?

	26-01-2005 05:48									#82
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2 turns after they gave us rubber, we settled a rubber city. But that has been a couple of turns ago, so they could argue that those turns that they didn't deliver but could have delivered are part of the deal.

I'm not sure on the precise details, whether they still owe us 14 or 16 turns, but it is something in that region.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 05:51									#83
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Are we still recieving GoW's rubber? If so, we'd have 2 sources, and could send one to RP?

	26-01-2005 05:52									#84
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No, that is the problem. The moment we settled, the deal with GoW was cancelled. If we would have sent rubber to RP before settling, it would have this effect, but nobody thought about it in time.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 06:03									#85
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In that case we can surely say to GoW:

quote: As the recent Rubber transaction between us was very quickly anulled by the game on settling our own source, would it be reasonable to ask if the Rubber we had purchased could be sent instead to RP? We understand there may be a couple of turns less than the full twenty left on the deal, but if this is a problem a balancing sum could surely be arranged.

Some might argue that we could do without the second part - but it would seem cheeky to ask for 20 turns without acknowledging that some turns had already been supplied.

	26-01-2005 08:44									#86
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Why not just ask for ten turns and RP will cancel it at that time? They only need it to upgrade right?

	26-01-2005 13:50									#87
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I like the message, CH.

vmxa, it has to be somewhat casual. The real intent is to check if GoW is willing to provide a resource they know is in their disadvantage when they want to attack. My guess is that if they are planning on an assault, they will curse, and provide it anyway. If they would deny us the deal, we know for certain that they are also en route for Stormia.

DeepO

	26-01-2005 19:09									#88
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO No, that is the problem. The moment we settled, the deal with GoW was cancelled. If we would have sent rubber to RP before settling, it would have this effect, but nobody thought about it in time. DeepO

That's a pity. I was not aware of this in MP... AFAIK in SP, imports continue even when a resource is later procured directly.

	26-01-2005 19:31									#89
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I don't think so, T. If you've got a lux deal with an AI, and than somehow get the lux yourself, the deal cancels as well. There are exceptions, e.g. a lux for lux deal will keep their end of the bargain (so if you give ivory for silks, they will still receive silks but don't give ivory anymore), while a lux for gpt deal cancels... more than once did this create problems for me, where a deal was cancelled and I got a bad rep with the AIs. You don't get a rep-hit if you e.g. received a lux for a tech. Cancelling that deal doesn't cost the AI anything so they won't mind.

It may depend on your installation, but in PTWDG this happens for sure.

It's because this happens so seldomly that we didn't think about it before it happened... in general you don't go around in SP giving out rubber you receive from a civ, just moments before settling our own rubber resource

DeepO

	26-01-2005 19:56									#90
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Persoanlly I wonder how much the designers have gained from this game, simply knowing how you guys managed to abuse the system...

------

What do you guys think of building a fortress 2 of whirlwind, and sticking 5 MI in it? It is the only place where ND can land in one turn, and those 5 MI could hopefully make ND think about attacking one of out coastal cities, which will have a lot higher defense (100% "Kitty" shelters, 50% city size (and I'm not sure about which cirties have walls...).


About GoW: what do people think about trying to get MZ onto our side by pointing out that it would not reflect well on us if ND/GWT won both the ISDG and PTWDG...