31-01-2005 09:31									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Who is responsible for the entirety of the Iraq invasion, "the left" or the Bush administration?

Jaako, I have never been accussed of being a "Bushite" or anyone else but even I must admite the true situation, both morally and materially, is more complicated then you are portraying it as.

	31-01-2005 09:32									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Jaako, I have never been accussed of being a "Bushite" or anyone else but even I must admite the true situation, both morally and materially, is more complicated then you are portraying it as.

I'm just trying to make Giancarlo to commit himself to something he can't weasel himself out of.

	31-01-2005 09:44									#153
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quote: For starts Mr Cole seems to believe that voting for parties instead of individual candidates is some how totally undemocratic. I prefer the other way but Canada and several western European countries hold elections where you vote for Political Parties based upon that party's platform and I do believe Canada is a democratic country dispite that.

When the party lists are dictated top-down, announced a couple weeks before the election, it is undemocratic. That's not how European proportional representation systems work. Incidentally, Canada isn't PR, rather is FPTP (first past the post) like us.

quote: I also take exception to the second paragraph of Mr Cole's article because he doesn't get the time line right at all. Several ideas were floated by policy hacks but those were never from the Administration; the only one the US ever officially endorsed was Bremer followed by the creation of the IGC followed by elections. There were individuals backing different ideas in the administration and Powell had a very public disagreement with Rumsfield about Cholobi but none of Rumsfield's more wide eyed anti-democratic ideas ever was endorsed as official policy so to claim other wise is disingenious.

And it was Rumsfeld, not Powell, who had the near-exclusive power in Iraq in the initial months. That's reflected in the trust Dear Leader placed in Chalabi's claims (about WMD, about ties to al-Qaeda, etc.) his prominent position (in the IGC; physically, look at where he is in the SOTU), and the policy choices made in Iraq (i.e. the extreme de-Ba'athification, dissolution of the army). Cooincidentally I'm sure, this was reversed with the fall of Chalabi, and thus Defense (so Negroponte becomes Ambassador, Allawi becomes PM, etc.). Anyways, claiming this is ignoring basic facts is absurd, the Admin (which, again, means Rummy at the time) gave Chalabi a huge amount of power in running Iraq.

quote: Lastly I take exception to Mr Cole's claim that the election was "deeply troubling and flawed"

Yawn. You have problems with his conclusion, not his supposed neglect of "basic facts."

quote: turn out on a national level was much higher then in the US or Europe. I stand by my previous estimates (made days ago) that turn out will be in the 60% to 70% range. I base that on how likely each ethnic group is to vote and what percentage of the population they make up.

Except in the US, more than 10% of blacks or hispanics voted. There was also a good bit of public campaigning, and voters generally knew who they were voting for.

Edit (was gonna ignore this, but what the hell...):

quote: Mr Cole seems to be ideologically driven in nearly everything he does and I dispise ideologically driving"reporters" because I cannot trust what they are reporting. I have never been a fan of the Bush Administration, however, that doesn't mean I would support people like Mr. Cole who are simply the left wing version of the administration in terms of partisan zeal.

Actually, Cole supported the invasion of Iraq initially. But go ahead and ignore that, I wouldn't want you to stop calling people you disagree with left-wing partisan zealots.

	31-01-2005 09:45									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Why are you avoiding? Please answer my question. Is the Bush administration responsible for everything the Iraq invasion brings or has brought forth?

The Bush adminstration is responsible for helping make the election possible.

	31-01-2005 09:46									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo The Bush adminstration is responsible for helping make the election possible.

Is that a "no"?

I'm really confused. Just answer my question with a "yes" or a "no".

Is the Bush administration responsible for everything the Iraq invasion brings or has brought forth?

	31-01-2005 09:47									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Is that a "no"? I'm really confused. Just answer my question with a "yes" or a "no". Is the Bush administration responsible for everything the Iraq invasion brings or has brought forth?

I've already answered your question. Now if you keep pushing it I may swear at you.

	31-01-2005 09:49									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I've already answered your question. Now if you keep pushing it I may swear at you.

So your reply is "no", am I correct?

	31-01-2005 09:50									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko So your reply is "no", am I correct?

You are not listening to my answers. Some questions cannot be answered with a simple "yes" or "no". But you are a simple minded person.

	31-01-2005 09:53									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo You are not listening to my answers. Some questions cannot be answered with a simple "yes" or "no". But you are a simple minded person.

On the contrary, my question is very simple.

However, if you're unable or unwilling to answer, there's not much I can do.

I just hope you'll find this "nuance" of yours whenever you feel like bashing the left.

	31-01-2005 09:55									#160
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No it is not very simple. It is very complicated. I cannot answer a simple minded, unrealistic question. You just can't understand the reality because your perception limits it.

	31-01-2005 09:57									#161
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First, SUF.

On the Cole piece- the Chalabi stuff is a bit dated, but I agree with Cole on 3 things:

Democratic elections were hoisted upon the administration, not something they willingly went into form the beginning. But it is a common admin. strategy to claim victory for actions they innitially opposed )like the 9/11 commission).

These elections could have occured months ago, but the time table was dictated by US politicvs, whihc is just simply bad administration, but this is normal for the imbecile bunch in washington.

This is just a start, and the really tough questions are comming up when the Constitution will be writen. Lets see just how much the Shia Arabs are willing to grant the Sunni Kurds, and the role Islam will be given.

	31-01-2005 09:59									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo No it is not very simple. It is very complicated. I cannot answer a simple minded, unrealistic question. You just can't understand the reality because your perception limits it.

But it is simple. The question was,

Is the Bush administration responsible for everything the Iraq invasion brings or has brought forth?

There are precisely two answers to this question. If you think they are indeed responsible for everything, you answer "yes". If you think they aren't responsible for everything, you answer "no".

What's so hard about that?

	31-01-2005 09:59									#163
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First, SUG.

	31-01-2005 10:01									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko But it is simple. The question was, Is the Bush administration responsible for everything the Iraq invasion brings or has brought forth? There are precisely two answers to this question. If you think they are indeed responsible for everything, you answer "yes". If you think they aren't responsible for everything, you answer "no". What's so hard about that?

No it is not simple. You just don't get it do you? Some questions require more analysis and statement to them. You can't just answer "yes" or "no" because the answer can be both. It depends on the complexity of the subject and what is brought into question. You need to develop your relatively immature, reactionary thoughts into something that is more understanding the reality. Some questions can't just be answered "yes" or "no"... they need analysis and can be both.

	31-01-2005 10:03									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo First, SUG.

I guess immitation is the sincerest form of flattery

	31-01-2005 10:03									#166
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One more thing about PR/FPTP: so much sectarian bullshit could've been undermined if they had FPTP instead of PR. That way, elections would be more about tangible local issues, rather than voting for your ethn-religious group.

	31-01-2005 10:04									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo No it is not simple. You just don't get it do you? Some questions require more analysis and statement to them. You can't just answer "yes" or "no" because the answer can be both. It depends on the complexity of the subject and what is brought into question. You need to develop your relatively immature, reactionary thoughts into something that is more understanding the reality. Some questions can't just be answered "yes" or "no"... they need analysis and can be both.

It's simple boolean logic. There simply can't be more than the two answers I gave (ie. "yes" or "no"), or it's a different question. If you wish to ask some other question, feel free, but it's not the same as mine.

	31-01-2005 10:06									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko It's simple boolean logic. There simply can't be more than the two answers I gave (ie. "yes" or "no"), or it's a different question. If you wish to ask some other question, feel free, but it's not the same as mine.

No again. I'm getting very mad right now... and I'm trying my best to explain you something about the world: Nothing is answered in a simple yes or no when it comes to an issues like Iraq in the world. It ne ver is. And it never will be. You just don't get it. You won't look pass your simplistic Michael Moore styled mind-set. Leftism degenerates the mind.. and I see it here...

	31-01-2005 10:08									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo No again. I'm getting very mad right now... and I'm trying my best to explain you something about the world: Nothing is answered in a simple yes or no when it comes to an issues like Iraq in the world. It ne ver is. And it never will be. You just don't get it. You won't look pass your simplistic Michael Moore styled mind-set. Leftism degenerates the mind.. and I see it here...

I'm very disappointed that you choose to pelt me with rude insults over such a simple question. Perhaps I was wrong in trying to talk to you.

	31-01-2005 10:09									#170
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Yes, you were.

	31-01-2005 10:10									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko I'm very disappointed that you choose to pelt me with rude insults over such a simple question. Perhaps I was wrong in trying to talk to you.

I'm trying to tell you the answer is a lot more then just yes or no. It is like a math question. You can't just take a math test and answer "yes" or "no" to every question.

	31-01-2005 10:11									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I'm trying to tell you the answer is a lot more then just yes or no. It is like a math question. You can't just take a math test and answer "yes" or "no" to every question.

But I didn't ask a math question. My question was a simple yes/no proposition.

	31-01-2005 10:13									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko But I didn't ask a math question. My question was a simple yes/no proposition.

Again no it wasn't. There is a lot more to the question then just "yes" or "no". But in your simple mind you refuse to accept it.,

	31-01-2005 10:17									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Again no it wasn't. There is a lot more to the question then just "yes" or "no". But in your simple mind you refuse to accept it.,

But how is that possible? If I ask you, is it true that your handle is "Giancarlo", how can there be more answers than "yes" and "no"?

	31-01-2005 10:18									#176
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Ramo, I'm to tired to go 20 rounds with you but rest assured Cole is a partisan hack who plays fast and lose with facts just like the various Republican hacks. The only difference is Cole represents the more left leaning bits of the Democratic party and various other parties. He doesn't even try to maintain he's journalistic integrity which is why his pieces are usually dumped into the opinion section instead of the news section. For news I prefer less biased sources which will at least pretend to be objective.

	31-01-2005 10:19									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko But how is that possible? If I ask you, is it true that your handle is "Giancarlo", how can there be more answers than "yes" and "no"?

Some questions have bigger answers, then what your simple mind wants. Unfortunately, the world isn't black and white.

Yes my name is Giancarlo. What does that have to do with anything?

	31-01-2005 10:25									#178
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First off, he's not a journalist. He's a history professor who writes a blog; he analyzes, not reports, that's why it's not in the news sections. As for playing "fast and loose with the facts," yes you keep accusing him of doing that, but have never demonstrated it. Frankly, you got a few facts wrong in that criticism of his.

As for him being some kind of partisan zealot, as I just edited in my previous post, he supported the Iraqi invasion initially. He also has been quite critical of the agenda of Democratic candidates (especially Dean, BTW) during the primaries, and then Kerry in the general. And his current position is hardly orthodoxly Democratic: staying in Iraq indefinitely, and not creating a timetable for withdrawal.

	31-01-2005 10:30									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Some questions have bigger answers, then what your simple mind wants. Unfortunately, the world isn't black and white. Yes my name is Giancarlo. What does that have to do with anything?

Asking your handle was an analogue, to make you understand.

Either the Bush administration is responsible for everything, or they aren't. There is no middle ground.

Either your handle is Giancarlo, or isn't. There is no middle ground.

	31-01-2005 10:31									#180
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You aren't understanding the facts, jakko. But your leftism has caused delusions in your mind that caused this. You must shut up now.