09-02-2005 18:37									#1
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ok guys, the first turn has arrived and we should decide on what to do (and what the password is ):

check the screenshot for my proposal.

- warrior1: onto hill --> uncovers 2 sugar resources and a nice 2food-1trade resources towards the south-west
- warrior2: east --> uncovers river delta (sea? lake?) and another resource.

so then i was thinking on where to put which city. as ivory is a nice +2 trade, it would be a shame to lose it (until city is over 6), so i would like to move
- settler1 towards NE
(also, it allows the other settlers to not need to go as far away.)

another settler should go and grab the sugars. currently i think the tiles S, S, SE of the starting location would be great (2 sugars, river access, bonus grassland) so
- settler2 south

- settler 3 west
why? go towards that food bonus, have fresh water access (lake). i'm not yet sure whether we should stop NE of the bonus grassland or go further, but we can see that next turn.

workers:
worker1 dispatched for the cattle (irrigate, then road)
worker2 stays (irrigate, then road)
worker3 south (road to settler2's future location, mine &road bonus grassland as well as the sugars.

Attachment: eod_dr_02_4000bc.png
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	09-02-2005 19:57									#2
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After discussion with Moonbars tonight on MSN, I have convinced him that founding the capital 1 of the start location may be best (though I'm still open to Sabre's idea).

My rationale: Most importantly, putting the first city 9 of the start location "uncentres" our core. Settling at 1 puts our capital much more central to the surrounding rivers and lakes, enabling greater utilisation of the water for commerce and growth. It will also virtually guarantee 4 pretty good second ring cities. Longer term, once the capital reaches size 7 it will be a kick-arse Wonder producer, with Cattle, Sugar, 5 BG (!), a Hill and a Tobacco for commerce bonuses. Also importantly, it moves the centre of our Empire further away from the coast, which is clearly discernible to the east. And don't forget the defensive bonus of the Hill. There is also the possibility of 3 Forest chops.

Second city should be 332 of start location. Third Settler I would send out east, possibly to settle a coastal town (and future Colossus site) at 663 of the start location.

As for Workers, I would leave 2 on the Ivory to road then irrigate, and send one to the Cow to road then irrigate, so that when we expand in 10 turns we have the half pump setup.

Warriors - send one south to explore the land, and probably the other north to scope out what is up there beyond the desert.....ie, where does that northern river lead to?

We will soon want to send another Settler west otwards the Lakes, one of which is clearly a Fish Lake

	09-02-2005 20:18									#3
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I agree all points. However, does it not cost 3 to irrigate with industrial civs? If so, I suggest that we put 2 workers on road, and one on Irrigate. that way the following tick we can order the other two to "irrigate" and end up with a finished tile faster. We can have the second tile done before the borders expand.

Infact, we could road the tile 7 from the start before doing the cattle. faster movement, and still get the cattle ready well before we have anybody to work it or it is inside our borders.

	09-02-2005 20:46									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Moonbars However, does it not cost 3 to irrigate with industrial civs? If so, I suggest that we put 2 workers on road, and one on Irrigate. that way the following tick we can order the other two to "irrigate" and end up with a finished tile faster. We can have the second tile done before the borders expand.

Yes, agreed. 2 Workers to road (1 turn), Worker 3 irrigating Ivory, completed by first 2 Workers in turn 2.

quote: Infact, we could road the tile 7 from the start before doing the cattle. faster movement, and still get the cattle ready well before we have anybody to work it or it is inside our borders.

Don't you mean 2 from the start - BG on the river? Road then mine it.

	09-02-2005 20:52									#5
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ok, please help me guys... how can there be a direction 9? there are only 8 directions! what is south, what is north, what is NE, etc?

	09-02-2005 20:56									#6
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Numeric Keypad. 789 is North West, North, North East, etc

	09-02-2005 20:57									#7
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As per the numpad.

5 is where you are.

Therefore:
1 --> SW
2 --> S
3 --> SE

4 --> W
6 --> E

7 --> NW
8 --> N
9 --> NE

	09-02-2005 21:00									#8
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aqua: wonder production is cool, but please don't forget that this is a small pangea map and we seem to be bang in the middle. i guess we'll need lots and lots of units and lots and lots barracks to survive long enough

but i see now what you mean with direction 1 (SE?) and the great total lands once reaching expanded culture borders. however, this still will take 10 turns, in which we only have 1 irrigated ivory plains that give us 2 food+1 production, the rest is non-bonus grassland.

i like the idea of the colossus city! colossus is imho underrated! a size 8 city gets +8 trade and combined with marketplace and library it's already 12 beakers/gold MORE per turn. and that for only 200 shields and our first tech

	09-02-2005 21:03									#9
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Hey, why are we Green? We ordered Dark Grey / Black! !

	09-02-2005 21:03									#10
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moonbars: you are right about the 3 irrigation for industrial civs. but don't also forget the PBEM way of the workers finishing their tasks faster, but instead waiting a turn longer.

if we place 1 worker to road and 2 workers to irrigate, both improvements will be done by the next turn and 1 irrigator will be free for movement. he could move to the cattle (1 turn), irrigate it (3) and road it (2) and still be faster than the culture border expansion
vive l'industrialisme!

	09-02-2005 21:04									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Hey, why are we Green? We ordered Dark Grey / Black!!

i know... and the other bastards got their color! i demand a restart!

	10-02-2005 01:07									#12
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ok, i'm getting back to aqua's proposal in his first post.

lets say the capital is founded SW (1) of the starting location (my analysis in an earlier post).

in that case i especially don't like the idea of city2 at 332. that would be 3 tiles SE of the capital, thereby sharing a whopping 10 tiles with the capital and not being able to use the 2nd sugar tile.

and with city3 at 663 we have a nice future potential colossus site and access to gems, but from what we see in the screenshot no great new tiles. in addition, we are sharing 10 tiles with city2 and 4 tiles amongst all cities!

also, the fish lake (3 food!) is being missed out.

my opinion is that IF we go for the SW-capital, then city2 must go 223 instead of 332. it's just 1 tiles difference but reduces redundancy quite a lot. it also allows us to use the 2nd sugar tile and gives us a direct 3-tile-road to the capital (without a river that blocks units.

opinions?

	10-02-2005 01:12									#13
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of course i still favour my initial proposal, but this is a DG and given some convincing arguments i can quickly change my opinion

in my games it is important to have a great start. the first turns are underrated but can be a game breaker. i am just worried that we would waste 1 settler (663) on a potential good future location but risk being stuck in an area of hills an non-bonus grassland, while fishies and sugars smile from the distance...

next post will be a graphical analysis of the different proposals...

	10-02-2005 01:24									#14
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I would not be concerned about sharing tiles with the other cities, we need to pack the cities in tight, ideally 2 spaces between them is my preference.

However, given we are in the middle of the map, it might be best to "skip" a site and push a settler out, so as to claim more land. i.e. found a city 6 tiles away from the capital with the idea of filling in a city inbetween soon after.

	10-02-2005 01:29									#15
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moons: i agree on 3 tiles city spacing (C x x C), but not immediately in the same direction. the more "off" the axis you go, the less collision you get. ideally EEE or SSS for sharing only 2 tiles but still having 3 tiles distance.


anyhow, here is the first screenshot comparing aqua's and my proposal. note: i have not decided on where the ideal 3rd city should be. possibly on the forest tile (3 tiles away from the capital).

another disadvantage of aqua's proposal is that the northern city (obviously going to use that river) is already pretty far away!

Last edited by sabrewolf on 10-02-2005 at 01:43

	10-02-2005 01:31									#16
	City Placement Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'd be putting cities at A, B and C first off.

Attachment: cityplacement.jpg
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	10-02-2005 01:35									#17
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interesting

however only half of your outer cities are using fresh water. E, F and G are 1 tile away from that making them need aqueducts.

and why do we need strict 3 tile spacing? defensive mobility is important, but it's not all. wrecking economy and production because of that is imho not worth it.

btw: with your proposal the capital does not have a single tile for itself! the oposite of OCP


edit: but if we take your solution, i would root for B and D first! (not missing the fish)

edit2: question guys: why are you so afraid of using that 2nd sugar tile???

	10-02-2005 01:36									#18
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The site where you placed your capital is where I wanted to go orignally as well, but Aqua changed my mind for the reasons listed above. (central location, defence, better tiles, etc)

The real winner for me is that a good site for the gem/Collosus city doesn't exisit under your Capital Location plan.

	10-02-2005 01:38									#19
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collossus city would come later.

gems can be reached with colony (it's only 2 tiles E) or after 100 culture...

defensive advantage? do you guys expect us to ever have to DEFEND our capital? hey, WE are the nasty guys, WE should be going after other capitals and not defending ours

	10-02-2005 01:40									#20
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A B C and D are the only 'definate' city sites on my diagram.

(also note that we are cross posting with each other!)

	10-02-2005 01:42									#21
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You are assuming we are not rushed before our end-of-ancient-age assault. As I said, those 3 reasons where minor - the real clincher was the lack of a good site to get at those gems from.

	10-02-2005 01:46									#22
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yep, crossposting's a bïtch

gems: but as i wrote, that can be aquired with 1 road + a colony. 1 worker is much cheaper than 1 suboptimal early city?


edit: and that still does not answer why your position B cannot include the second sugar

	10-02-2005 01:46									#23
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf interesting btw: with your proposal the capital does not have a single tile for itself! the oposite of OCP edit: but if we take your solution, i would root for B and D first! (not missing the fish) edit2: question guys: why are you so afraid of using that 2nd sugar tile???

You may be right about going for D first over B, extra food and all that.

With regards OCP, I think it's a good thing to share tiles between cities, a micromangers dream given form

	10-02-2005 02:44									#24
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Site B does have the second sugar. After border exp..

	10-02-2005 03:06									#25
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border expansion requires a temple. and that's obviously not one of the first things to be built ... so you need to bring a more convincing argument

	10-02-2005 03:20									#26
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Wow, you go to bed and look what happens

Anyway, a correction. I must have been tired when I wrote it, but for the second city I really meant 223 instead of 332, which is now consistent with Sabre's point. This is still 3 tiles from the capital, but one is offset.

On the Colossus city, I suggested placing it there even though it is one tile further away for my liking, because to place it one tile further NW (a better location), would not give us a coastal city and would waste the food potential of the coastal tiles.

As for spacing, I always prefer a strict 3-tile spacing. This maximises use of tiles, and only becomes a problem once your core cities are all pushing size 9 or 10. This is a long way down the track, and in any case this issue can be solved with good planning of the second ring of cities (ie, place them a little further out to give more space on the "outside" of your first ring of cities).

	10-02-2005 03:29									#27
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Now referring to Moonbars' diagram:

City B one tileSW (as per my post above)
City E one tile SW to take advantage of the lake
City D is probably ok because it's on the hidden lake, but subject to discovering whether the tile if BGL or just plain GL
City G I quite dislike because it has no river, but I don't have a better alternative at this stage. In any case, it will be the 6th city or later, and we would have done more exploration by then. But it does share the Cow, which is good.
City F may be better placed one tile NE on the river, though doing so would sacrifice the Cow share.

Also, by moving city B as discussed, we can probably squeze another city in on the river between B and C. Perhaps to do this we should move city C 1 tile further east, though this would significantly increase corruption and make it harder to build the Colossus.

	10-02-2005 03:29									#28
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf border expansion requires a temple. and that's obviously not one of the first things to be built ... so you need to bring a more convincing argument

I guess I just don't consider that second sugar to be that important.

	10-02-2005 03:33									#29
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf gems can be reached with colony (it's only 2 tiles E) or after 100 culture...

Bah humbug! Never build colonies and waste a Worker! The Gems can wait until we have a Settler available for a town.

	10-02-2005 04:15									#30
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We need to wrap this up pretty soon.

I think we have agreed where to put the capital, and what to do with the warriors and workers.

So what are we doing with the other settlers?