13-02-2005 02:34									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Spy use was once quite common, and was percieved as too powerful. So, the anti-spy device was introduced. Next game, players will only get one of the anti-spy goodie instead of two. Maybe that'll increase spy usefulness. Or, should the thing be made buildable rather than a freebie?

Why not make it an option of what you can do with a normal spy (I think someone else suggested this too, but I forget whom)?? IE your spy orders can be:
* stop attack
* stop train spy
* stop build shield generator
* stop spy use

	13-02-2005 02:43									#62
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sent.

	13-02-2005 03:09									#63
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Sent?

	13-02-2005 04:19									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Spy use was once quite common, and was percieved as too powerful. So, the anti-spy device was introduced. Next game, players will only get one of the anti-spy goodie instead of two. Maybe that'll increase spy usefulness. Or, should the thing be made buildable rather than a freebie?

Only one ant-spy will negate its offensive application since everybody will save it to avoid the spy deadlock. However at the time we introduced it we weren't sure if one was enough or two were needed. Anyway, since we have a pre-build now, let's try only one anti-spy. Should the reduction of anti-spy options produce similar situation we had in GO5, I'd say we return to 2 anti-spy for the future games.

	13-02-2005 04:43									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Sent?

Indeed... ie the requested info was sent to me

Already fast at work, actually. Have some macros for the basic image manipulation and whatnot; have to get the images worked out of course (used a cut from the big image for my initial test). Smiley you'll want to make the main sheet look nicer, as that's not my strong point, but you can easily do that by either pasting in the actual images you used (instead of using excel's poor suite of text formatting tools) or by using aforementioned tools inside excel... I'll just make the macros.

	13-02-2005 05:11									#66
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Ah, but is manuvering to gain 50% damage worth taking an automatic double damage unopposed? (as opposed to single damage unopposed unless your opponant counters your OOB)

	13-02-2005 05:13									#67
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I have to say I don't really see any value in maneuvering either, but that could just be my noob-ness ...

	13-02-2005 05:31									#68
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I agree that double damage against manoeuvring may be too punishing which will effectively limit its application to a very small number of desperate situations. Perhaps manoeuvring should yield a 100% attack bonus?

	13-02-2005 06:00									#69
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Only thing I can think of is that if you are in a mostly-single-weapon fleet, such as
L: 200 T: 10 F: 0

and your opponent is not dissimilar, such as

L: 10 T: 10 F: 200

as Lasers beat Fighters, you would have strong incentive to go
MML-MML
or
MLL-MTT
and hope your opponent either used also a M in slots 1 (and 2 possibly), ie a mirror of yours, or used useless (T,L) orders in the slots with your Ms. Then you'd get a 50% bonus (or 100% bonus if 2 Ms) to your huge stack'o'L's, and your opponent would get a 100% bonus to a miniscule force.

Of course if your opponent goes
FTL-FTL against either one

or against #1 (MML-MML) goes FFT-LLT ...

you may never get to use much of your single weapon, but ... ah well.

IE, Maneuver is intended to be taking a big risk, and mostly only with a single or dual (not triple) weapon fleet. It pays off big, but only if you get lucky. Mostly useful by a smaller fleet hoping for a chance against a much larger one?

	13-02-2005 08:46									#70
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Spy deadlock has already been negated by the ban on building and sending a spy the same turn.

On Maneuvering: it's main use is one-weapon fleets, of which the common type is lazors. Since Lazor fleets are already quite popular, the minuscule boost the 50% at expense of double damage gives ought to be enough.

	13-02-2005 15:17									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Spy deadlock has already been negated by the ban on building and sending a spy the same turn.

You seem to have a very short memory since you were on the receiving end of one such deadlock which in fact prompted the introduction of anti-spy. It was GO 5 with its four way dishonourable alliance.

quote: Originally posted by Smiley On Maneuvering: it's main use is one-weapon fleets, of which the common type is lazors. Since Lazor fleets are already quite popular, the minuscule boost the 50% at expense of double damage gives ought to be enough.

It would be nice to extend the application of manoeuvring to something more than one-weapon desperate fleet.

	13-02-2005 15:38									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko dishonourable

Anti-Ljube?

	13-02-2005 19:56									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Anti-Ljube?

quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko It would be nice to extend the application of manoeuvring to something more than one-weapon desperate fleet.

I think I agree, although I have only watched replays of past games and not played one myself.

On the Excel Auto Stats Sheet front, I have succeeded in getting it so that it will automatically fill the box of one player with self-bases, and it will automatically delete all of the self bases. Now all I have to do is rewrite that function for each other thing, and test the "player 2-X" portion of its code (written but not tested).

	13-02-2005 21:19									#74
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I would like to say "no rush" but you know how close the current GO is to finishing eh?

	13-02-2005 21:39									#75
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hehe

well as I said it's trivial - somewhat timeconsuming but trivial, to someone who knows excel and VB pretty well.

I may also try to fix up a spreadsheet a bit to do some of what Smiley does manually, automatically - having it give results in the middle, as smiley needs to do his really cool storyline, is the tougher part. But if I can get it so Smiley can spend less time doing the battle numbers out and more time writing cool storylines ... yes?

	13-02-2005 23:07									#76
	Got spare money?

As of right now, the spreadsheet could use the automation most in converting weapon types and tactics into modifier values on the battle page. This is the place where screwups are most likely to occur.

A breakdown of the time used to process a turn of GOVIII

Order entry (1 minute/player)
Battle processing (5 minutes/6-round battle)
Image display for null battles and spying (5 minute/event)
Battle display (5 minutes to set up + 5 minutes for each round)
Chart display (3 minutes/player)

	13-02-2005 23:38									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley As of right now, the spreadsheet could use the automation most in converting weapon types and tactics into modifier values on the battle page. This is the place where screwups are most likely to occur. A breakdown of the time used to process a turn of GOVIII Order entry (1 minute/player) Battle processing (5 minutes/6-round battle) Image display for null battles and spying (5 minute/event) Battle display (5 minutes to set up + 5 minutes for each round) Chart display (3 minutes/player)

Actually I was thinking of just iterating the battle process. Although Excel is incapable of doing iterated loops, VB-Excel is very capable of doing so. It would print out the results of each battle round in turn ... ie round 1, round 2, etc., based on a set template, essentially the template of what you had in the spreadsheet. It shouldn't be difficult at all, essentially:

code:
 while (attackFleetHP > 0) and (defendFleetHP > 0) do
  copyWave(attackFleet,defendFleet,attOrd1,defOrd1)
  copyWave(attackFleet,defendFleet,attOrd2,defOrd2)
  copyWave(attackFleet,defendFleet,attOrd3,defOrd3)
  procKillShips(attackFleet,defendFleet)
  copyWave(attackFleet,defendFleet,attOrd4,defOrd4)
  copyWave(attackFleet,defendFleet,attOrd5,defOrd5)
  copyWave(attackFleet,defendFleet,attOrd6,defOrd6)
  procKillShips(attackFleet,defendFleet)
  if pressAttack = FALSE then exit loop
loop

which would give you a printout of each wave. (i'm using wave to mean a single order vs. single order, and round to mean six waves; that's probably incorrect, but I don't remember the terminology well enough ) "CopyWave" would be a generic copy function that copies the template of excel cells that determines each wave's result. "procKillShips" would be a function that decrements the total ships available to each side. The loop could also be modified to end after one loop if Attackers don't press the attack.

But first is the stat display, which is all done btw except for the display of laser/fighter/torpedo values, which is nearly identical to the display of bases/bp's, which IS done. I also need to do a few simple things like automating killing off players (which I may leave out, as it may be easier just to select rows and choose "delete", depends on how excel-vb processes the images.)

	13-02-2005 23:40									#78
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Oh- relevant to that last one - are you allowed to send different orders for different rounds of battle? ie:

Att 1: TTF-FLL
Att 2: TFL-TFL
Att 3: TFF-LLT
Def: TFL-TLF
etc. (for the same enemy, not for different ones.)

??

	14-02-2005 00:14									#79
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Screenshot of how it's going so far

I haven't added pics of all the other players yet, just 2, but i've added code to handle them, and their names.

Also, you'll want to either replace the fonts with better ones of your own, or put in a pic replacing the title portion - I have no good gothic fonts and couldn't find any good ones in my admittedly short search!

Attachment: screenshot-early.jpg
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	14-02-2005 00:21									#80
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Wow, not bad at all. Looks a bit stretched vertically in terms of the boxes, but I'm extremely impressed.

	14-02-2005 01:36									#81
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Sweet.

To answer the previous question, no, OoB repeats every 6 rounds when fighting to the death.

A couple other questions:
Is it possible to gray out ship types that a player has none of?

In general:
Doing the math is fast, it's converting the math to images (as in the end of round chart) that takes the longest.

By the way:
Since you have all the information, how do you think the next round is going to go?

	14-02-2005 02:03									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Sweet. To answer the previous question, no, OoB repeats every 6 rounds when fighting to the death. A couple other questions: Is it possible to gray out ship types that a player has none of?

Um, in what way. Short answer is probably yes, but it might be more work than it's worth. IE, if you want to take each of those icons for FF,FC,FB,FD,FT and make them something different, then it's not worth it - I didn't individually handle these, as they don't generally change, but instead left them as fixed. You would have to manually replace them, or i'd have to write a more complex script to replace them.

OTOH, if you just want to turn the background of those cells from black to gray, that's a piece of cake. Consider it done.

quote: In general: Doing the math is fast, it's converting the math to images (as in the end of round chart) that takes the longest.

Hmm, probably. But it's not hard for the math to be done by excel either, and if you want the one done why not do both?

But you don't have to use the other part certainly I like programming challenges in Excel, so I do them regardless of use value And the image thing is portable.

quote: By the way: Since you have all the information, how do you think the next round is going to go?

I think ... hmm. Atragon vs Lord Nuclear in a showdown with about 450 ships on each side, but since all of Atragons are Fighters, and all of LN's are torps ...

	14-02-2005 02:25									#83
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Very nice of you to give me more ships in your example.

	14-02-2005 02:47									#84
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Very nice of you to give me more ships in your example.

Yeh, you were the one i tested "gross-effects" with as opposed to "fine-tuned-effects".

In the next screenshot believe you me you'll have far less.

	14-02-2005 02:58									#85
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Okay, here's it done to a point.

It has the gray-out-background thing done, although it doesn't look real pretty because the icons for the ships are on black, not transparent, bg. I suggest just leaving it be. But it's up to ya.

How to use:

1. Extract the zip folder.
2. Open the Excel file.
3. Go to the tab "Details Sheet".
4. Enter in the path to your folder, including the folder, and a \ at the end.

IE
C:\Documents and Settings\My Documents\GO VIII\
would be entered exactly as show if you put it in My Documents and that's in C:\ drive and you have win2000.

5. Click on "Set Home Directory".
6. Cell AI3 is the one that determines which player the buttons affect. 1 is for snoopy369, 2 for drspike, etc.
7. Play with the buttons!!

It's not finished yet; it doesn't have an update all macro or anything like that, but that will be done after i get back from dinner tonight in 3-4 hours (it's a dinner party, so who knows?). But I wanted to post something ...

Attachment: go viii.zip
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	14-02-2005 03:00									#86
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And a screenie for those of you who don't want to play with it.

I also still have to fix the icon spacing for the ships, as I ended up increasing the size of the cells they were pasted near (to allow for up to 300 ship-build points of each type!!) I'm waiting to make sure I know exactly what is going to end up done with them before fixing it (as i have to manually fix each one).

Attachment: second screenshot.jpg
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	14-02-2005 03:34									#87
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Booo!

	14-02-2005 04:06									#88
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Further thoughts about Manouvre

Only one M order per OoB.

Using an M order exposes you to double damage

The attack after an M order is at double strength.

So, basically, you take double damage now, to deal double damage later. You take a chance that your ships will survive the pounding they take as they manouvre into the perfect firing position. This seems the most fair and useful application of M orders.

Tactical Note : Using an OoB that starts with an M order is suicidal. The double casualties you take in the first round will be removed from the first ship type in the OoB - in this case whatever you wanted to benefit from the M order will get smashed before it can fire. I suggest using a second weapon type to "cover the manovure"

Therefore M orders are perfect for fleets with TWO or more weapon types.

-Jam

	14-02-2005 05:08									#89
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Er, Jamski... it won't, remember, casualties are removed at the end of each 3-round block... So your Laser ships are about to die from the massive fighter strike, but not before they annihilate the other side's next ship up (probably)

	14-02-2005 07:07									#90
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Yeah, 't would be too confusing for the GM's if suddenly they have to distract ships before the round is over in this exception.