11-02-2005 07:14									#181
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I suspect they would have confused the Persians with the Prooshians, and by extension the Heshuns, so, as not to overexcite the antediluvian Repug.s, they changed the nomenclature to Eye Rainians, in the hope perhaps they might take them for great green B.E.M.s from a William Castle Fifties s.f. b-movie....

Molly, I realize you're just trying to be funny but it makes you look pretty ignorant. Other then a handful of southern areas no one in the US speaks like that. Since you have stopped arguing and instead have resorted to untrue stereotypes may I assume you've bowed out of this discussion?

	11-02-2005 07:16									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Spare us the BS, everyone always makes moral arguments about anything, and even moreso the so-called relativists. If you can't make a moral argument, how would you debate anything in the first place?

You don't understand the argument? Well, then may I suggest you go back to the first two pages and actually read them this time. You may learn something.

	11-02-2005 07:23									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Oh, now that is funny. I realize yopu are very young and likely don't remember how John Major and George Bush Sr. both flatly said they'd launch a massive nuclear attack upon Iraq if they used chemical weapons. What did your world do? Chear and agree.

1) My world?

2) What does that have to with using nukes? That's just more saber rattling and scare mongering, the only thing nukes have ever been good for (aside from killing japs, anyways).

quote: There most certainly are cases where nukes can be used and political support be maintained; the main reason they haven't been used since 1945 is the weak are to scared to cross the strong and the strong are afraid to fight each other.

So, how would North Korea maintain the political support it never had when launching a nuclear attack on a USA that has just disarmed it's nuclear arsenal as a gesture of good faith to the world?

	11-02-2005 08:05									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You are going off the assumption that the US is always in the right - that we do no harm to the world.

That doesn't answer the question. can our enemies be appeased? As for the big bad evil imperial US I'm all for returning to isolationism.

	11-02-2005 08:13									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha That doesn't answer the question. can our enemies be appeased? As for the big bad evil imperial US I'm all for returning to isolationism.

Generally I'm against appeasement, but there could be cases where it might be the best thing to do.

	11-02-2005 10:09									#186
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I clicked this thread thinking Sava was making a confession.

	11-02-2005 10:12									#187
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Unfortunetly you got people making the claim that neoconservatism is an 'interests' based IR philosophy.

Thought you may have gotten a kick out of that as well.

	11-02-2005 10:16									#188
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I was pleasantly surprised that Sava had seen enough and said enough was enough. Maybe there is hope for American politics.

	11-02-2005 15:03									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Molly, I realize you're just trying to be funny but it makes you look pretty ignorant. Other then a handful of southern areas no one in the US speaks like that. Since you have stopped arguing and instead have resorted to untrue stereotypes may I assume you've bowed out of this discussion?

Get over yourself Mary.

	11-02-2005 15:30									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The thing that I would really like to see is the US become less hostile, and drop all this realpolitic ****. This kind of attitude is the problem.

Exactly

And untill it does, and really starts to behave like the benevolant power of Good in the world that it tries to kid its own population it is(and anyone else who listens); then if you were in Iran or N.Korea etc would you want to try to get nukes or not? I mean without them your just another Iraq in-waiting aren't you?

	11-02-2005 16:21									#191
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Still no argument? That's what I thought, Molly.

	11-02-2005 16:23									#192
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor And untill it does, and really starts to behave like the benevolant power of Good in the world that it tries to kid its own population it is(and anyone else who listens); then if you were in Iran or N.Korea etc would you want to try to get nukes or not? I mean without them your just another Iraq in-waiting aren't you?

You do a ton of whining but can't come up with a single practical solution to anything, isn't that right? I'll I hear is constant crying but nothing to advance the conversation in a realistic direction. What does that say about your politics and the likely hood it will ever be effective in the real world?

	11-02-2005 16:31									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Still no argument? That's what I thought, Molly.

If that's what you thought, how terribly sad for you. Try to have a better thought, and give yourself a happy day.

I don't recall making an argument in the first place, but if you want to continue deluding yourself, be my guest.

Oh, and if people do talk in the way I wasn't seriously suggesting they all do, then it isn't an 'untrue stereotype' is it?

	11-02-2005 16:53									#194
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@Oerdin

I do my bit - its your country so its upto you
If i could make a difference i would, but politicaly i cant. I can make a difference here in my country by not supporting the political party that sullied our name in the world along with yours(i even wrote a letter to our PM about why i wouldn't be voting for them next time).

I dont buy US goods(computers being the obvious weak link in the chain, but i cut out the other 99%).
I research which companies over hear are US owned(ASDA for example), and even though its the local Supermarket i travell across london to buy from Tesco(UK owned) instead. I dont buy Israeli goods either.

Thats all i can do against what i percieve as a very real source of danger in our world today(there are other countries/companies i avoid as well).

The thing that p*sses me off about it the most is i know it doesn't have to be this way. I really believe we can have a decent future, all of us. And it just grips my s*it when i see greed/dishonesty ruling the roost.
Thats about the sum of it.
America can do better than it is - It has the power to really make a positive difference in this world(and no i dont mean by invaiding other countries and 'liberating' them from problems it previously created ).

I want America to do better, i want all of us to do better, thats all. If thats a crime or the wrong thing then i apologise for being misguided, but it wont change the fact that i cant help but see the world for what it is, and call a spade a spade.

Last edited by child of Thor on 11-02-2005 at 17:20

	11-02-2005 17:04									#195
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I've made your life hell?

Not exactly, more like heck. But it's probably a proximity frequency thing.

	11-02-2005 17:07									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious And from the same article.

He cuts, he pastes! He.... fails to grasp the basic concept yet again.

	11-02-2005 17:17									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Shows how much you know. Since when is a faction a nation?

Iraq is a state with three nations within it's borders, the Kurds, the Shiite Arabs and the Sunni (Syrian) Arabs who were attached to it by the Brits after they took over for the Ottoman Empire after WW1. Seriously you are over your head arguing with me.

	11-02-2005 17:39									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious How are they different?

Realpolitik is simply doing what you think is in the interest of your state, and when this conflicts with your ideology you tend to err on the side of the best interests of the state as you see them. Kissinger (or for that matter Nixon) is a great example of a Realpolitician. He fought communism because it was in the best interest of the state to do so (in his view) and even if it wasn't the political cost of not doing so (domestically) was too high. But that didn't mean that he didn't take advantage of the rift between the Soviets and the Chinese to improve U.S. relations with both states.

One of the reasons Nixon had such a successful foreign policy is that other states are more comfortable with a realpolitik foreign policy. The commies understood Nixon and could (and did) do business with him. It is the default assumption set in foreign policy that states will act in their own interests (views of what that is vary wildly of course). States which embark on highly ideological foreign policies are hard for others to comprehend / anticipate.

Neoconservatism seems to be a muscular conservative version of Wilsoniansim, whereby America is an exceptional country who is destined to change the world for the better by propogating our political (and in the neocon case economic) ideals as far and wide as possible, even using force at times. It is willing to pay a high price in terms of the best interest of the state (see U.S. relations with the RoTW since Bush II) in order to achieve these goals.

	11-02-2005 19:24									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Unfortunetly you got people making the claim that neoconservatism is an 'interests' based IR philosophy. Thought you may have gotten a kick out of that as well.

Really? I may have to read the thread after all. I need a good laugh.

	11-02-2005 19:35									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Iraq is a state with three nations within it's borders, the Kurds, the Shiite Arabs and the Sunni (Syrian) Arabs who were attached to it by the Brits after they took over for the Ottoman Empire after WW1. Seriously you are over your head arguing with me.

Yeah yeah yeah. The Sunni faction does not have sovereignty. That makes a big difference in how they behave.

	11-02-2005 19:40									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Realpolitik is simply doing what you think is in the interest of your state, and when this conflicts with your ideology you tend to err on the side of the best interests of the state as you see them. Kissinger (or for that matter Nixon) is a great example of a Realpolitician. He fought communism because it was in the best interest of the state to do so (in his view) and even if it wasn't the political cost of not doing so (domestically) was too high. But that didn't mean that he didn't take advantage of the rift between the Soviets and the Chinese to improve U.S. relations with both states. One of the reasons Nixon had such a successful foreign policy is that other states are more comfortable with a realpolitik foreign policy. The commies understood Nixon and could (and did) do business with him. It is the default assumption set in foreign policy that states will act in their own interests (views of what that is vary wildly of course). States which embark on highly ideological foreign policies are hard for others to comprehend / anticipate. Neoconservatism seems to be a muscular conservative version of Wilsoniansim, whereby America is an exceptional country who is destined to change the world for the better by propogating our political (and in the neocon case economic) ideals as far and wide as possible, even using force at times. It is willing to pay a high price in terms of the best interest of the state (see U.S. relations with the RoTW since Bush II) in order to achieve these goals.

The point is that overthowing left wing dictatorships is in the best interest of the US. That makes their policy realpolitic. The Cold War was the same way. It's a matter of opinion. I personally feel that people like Bush are more rational than they let on. They take cover behind what they call values.

	11-02-2005 21:21									#202
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quote: The point is that overthowing left wing dictatorships is in the best interest of the US.

Not always. For example if we attempted to overthrow the left wing dictatorship of North Korea, that may end up being a bad idea (Hello, China!). Realpolitik would say leave North Korea alone, it poses no threat. Neoconservativism would say this is one of the worst regimes in the world. Lets try all we can to overthrow it.

	11-02-2005 22:00									#203
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quote: The point is that overthowing left wing dictatorships is in the best interest of the US. That makes their policy realpolitic.

Libertarianism and communism both assert that it would be best NOT to nuke the Earth clean of life. Doesn't mean they're the same.

	11-02-2005 22:29									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The point is that overthowing left wing dictatorships is in the best interest of the US. Not always. For example if we attempted to overthrow the left wing dictatorship of North Korea, that may end up being a bad idea (Hello, China!). Realpolitik would say leave North Korea alone, it poses no threat. Neoconservativism would say this is one of the worst regimes in the world. Lets try all we can to overthrow it.

Bush is not going to invade NK dumbshit. I'm not arguing with you any more. You are already pwned.

	11-02-2005 22:30									#205
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Watch the insults, comrade.

	11-02-2005 22:46									#206
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Watch the insults, comrade.

Ohhhh sorry. I don't want to offend any of your capitalist buddies. I wouldn't want to do anything against capitalism. That might offend you.

	11-02-2005 22:48									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You do a ton of whining but can't come up with a single practical solution to anything, isn't that right?

The problem with the US is it is using a double standard.

I have no problems with the US doing this realpolitik stuff, but I have a problem when it starts accusing other countries from ethical grounds, e.g. human rights violations.

	12-02-2005 01:47									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ohhhh sorry. I don't want to offend any of your capitalist buddies. I wouldn't want to do anything against capitalism. That might offend you.

And make everyone ignore you (more than they already do) and get you banned.

	12-02-2005 01:47									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The problem with the US is it is using a double standard. I have no problems with the US doing this realpolitik stuff, but I have a problem when it starts accusing other countries from ethical grounds, e.g. human rights violations.

That can also be part of the realpolitik

	12-02-2005 01:53									#210
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quote: Bush is not going to invade NK dumbshit. I'm not arguing with you any more. You are already pwned.

Hey, look, once again Kid says he won't talk to anyone when he realizes he's utterly lost.

Bush is not a neoconservative. I hate to break it you. He has neoconservative elements, but he ain't Irving Kristol. A neoconservative would be great pressure on North Korea and may entertain ideas of using force to overthrow the repressive regime and advance democratic values.