10-02-2005 08:20									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I think that anyone who advocates might as right should get their head punched in to teach them a lesson. After all, it's a lesson that most people learn in grade school.

And you have a practical means to prevent the proliferation of WMD? We've already gone over why their total elimination is an impossibility so please don't bother with impractical responses.

	10-02-2005 08:24									#92
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Isay this because there is no other nation willing to stand up for those nations that can be taken control of. I say that sure we have no business telling a government how to set theirs up. I wonder what would happen if irac had had these weapons and destroyed a natin next to it what would come of the situation. I hate this war we are in, however i have to believe there is a eason for it and that reason being that the people of that country need a change. And by all means i am all for letting them be the ones to decide what that change is.

	10-02-2005 08:25									#93
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Oerdin,

I think that people would like the US to take some leadership on this since we are the strongest nation on earth, instead of contributing to the problem. Everyone was scared shitless about nuclear war during the Cold War, but after the Berlin wall fell the US and Russia did nothing to make sure that such a situation would not occur again. The US maintains the same mentality. It seems that the powers that be want history to repeat itself. I think the US has an interest in these weapons not to protect itself, but to maintain a position of power over nations without them.

	10-02-2005 08:29									#94
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quote: And you have a practical means to prevent the proliferation of WMD? We've already gone over why their total elimination is an impossibility so please don't bother with impractical responses.

I have a better response. I don't care if Iran gets nuclear weapons. They are less likely to use them than, say, Pakistan, and nuclear weapons are essentially defensive in nature anyway.

North Korea is worse than Iran in every way, yet even they won't use them because they know that you cannot use them and win.

	10-02-2005 08:29									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Geez, I agreed with Kid? This must be the end time, let the nukes fly HOSANNA!

Not really. I don't believe in building more nukes. I want them destroyed. I realize that the world situation makes this not a good idea right not, but the US is the biggest contributor of this hostile world.

	10-02-2005 08:33									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Not really. I don't believe in building more nukes. I want them destroyed. I realize that the world situation makes this not a good idea right not, but the US is the biggest contributor of this hostile world.

I dont think so. But again my opinion i beleive it was russia that stared selling their nukes to smaler countries. All this did was feed the little man syndrome. The us simple wants to ensure that all countries will live peacefully amongst each other.

	10-02-2005 08:38									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Isay this because there is no other nation willing to stand up for those nations that can be taken control of. I say that sure we have no business telling a government how to set theirs up. I wonder what would happen if irac had had these weapons and destroyed a natin next to it what would come of the situation. I hate this war we are in, however i have to believe there is a eason for it and that reason being that the people of that country need a change. And by all means i am all for letting them be the ones to decide what that change is.

Sure there needs to be a lot of change in the world. The thing is that conflict is caused when one hegemonic power, like the US, uses that power to bully the rest of the world. That's when nations become militaristic, and defensive. I'm not saying that they US is the source of all evil in the world, but it's not going out to fight the good fight either. It's just the biggest guy out there looking out for number 1. Some of us would like it to lead the world to peace, or at least get the hell out of the way. Some nice isolationism would be great on the part of the US.

	10-02-2005 08:43									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski The us simple wants to ensure that all countries will live peacefully amongst each other.

I'm willing to agree with that, but the US wants to be the nation with all the power and all the money. Sure if they have all the power and money they want peace.

	10-02-2005 08:53									#99
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Im not gonna deny the fact the the U.S is a rich nation. I hope that the U.S doesnt want to to control the world, for gods sake we have poor and suffering people here in our own country. It just seems to me that the poor and suffering might be larger in other countries. But If we cant help our own first we have no business helping others right. Wrong, thats not how this works.

	10-02-2005 08:58									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Im not gonna deny the fact the the U.S is a rich nation. I hope that the U.S doesnt want to to control the world, for gods sake we have poor and suffering people here in our own country. It just seems to me that the poor and suffering might be larger in other countries. But If we cant help our own first we have no business helping others right. Wrong, thats not how this works.

My feeling is that it's not just for the US to do. Each nation can just help their own people, otherwise the strong nations dominate the small nations. The world has to work together. Anyway, that's just my bleeding heart, as some people around here say.

	10-02-2005 09:05									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Oerdin, I think that people would like the US to take some leadership on this since we are the strongest nation on earth, instead of contributing to the problem. Everyone was scared shitless about nuclear war during the Cold War, but after the Berlin wall fell the US and Russia did nothing to make sure that such a situation would not occur again. The US maintains the same mentality. It seems that the powers that be want history to repeat itself. I think the US has an interest in these weapons not to protect itself, but to maintain a position of power over nations without them.

And do you think the US giving up it's nukes would encourage North Korea to give up theirs or do you think they would take advantage to once again invade the South knowing they could use the threat of their nukes to prevent US intervention? What do you think South Korea, Japan, and half a dozen other countries will do once the US no longer can shield them. Do you think they will feel more or less safe and do you believe they will feel the need to arm themselves?

Remember you've said the US should unilaterally disarm while China, Russia, North Korea, and every other potential thug and expansionist keeps theirs. Do you really think this will make the world a safer place?

	10-02-2005 09:12									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Just as we have every right to make their life a living hell for trying to get them

No. The US has no right to invade any other sovereign country.

	10-02-2005 09:13									#103
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Kid you are right the world has to work together. But i was saying im getting tired of eng attacked not by you or any one i know of being an american.

	10-02-2005 09:21									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Kid you are right the world has to work together. But i was saying im getting tired of eng attacked not by you or any one i know of being an american.

It's not meant to be personal. I hate patriotism. I see it as a source of world suffering. I attack 'patriotism', not just the US per se. So if you are patriotic then we will have some arguing to do, because you will be defending your nation, most probably unreasonably because of your biased perceptions.

	10-02-2005 09:22									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You haven't really thought that through have you? Neither has Kid. Let's assume we sign treaties and all the law abiding countries make their nukes disappear. Great isn't it? Well, then again maybe not because we'd have cheaters like North Korea and Iran would build them any way and now we wouldn't have any deterrent when an aggressive dictator feels he can use his nukes. Wouldn't we?

Of course you have deterant.

Do you think such a treaty wouldn't involve an rigorous and ongoing inspection of every countries weapon's production and capabilities? Do you seriously think that any modern country couldn't, if they wanted to, quickly (re)build nuclear weapons in a matter of weeks in response to someone breaking such a treaty? Do you seriously think a single country can hold the whole world hostage with nuclear weapons?


What do you expect to happen - some "aggresive dictator" secretely building up a nuclear arsenal powerful enough to destroy the entire world without anyone knowing? Of course, even if that did happen, the thought that he could hold every country in the world hostage with the threat of destruction is ridiculous.




I don't really know what relevance this has to the psot of mine you quoted, however...

	10-02-2005 09:24									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin And do you think the US giving up it's nuke would encourage North Korea to give up theirs or do you think they would take advantage to once again invade the South knowing they could use the threat of their nukes to prevent US intervention. What do you think South Korea, Japan, and half a dozen other countries will do once the US no longer can shield them. Do you think they will feel more or less safe and do you believe they will feel the need to arm themselves? Remember you've said the US should unilaterally disarm while China, Russia, North Korea, and every other potential thug and expansionist keeps theirs. Do you realy think this will make the world a safer place?

No. I don't think the US should just destroy it's nukes, but it's hard to believe that they want to. This is because of the bully role that they US plays in the world. It's obvious that nukes are an important weapon for the US to continue this role. First, the US needs to change it's role in the world. That would help create a more peacefull world. And then it might be possible to destroy nukes.

	10-02-2005 09:26									#107
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I didnt take it personal I value your opinion really i do. I was simply stating that the U.S has done alot for other nations and i love the country i live in.

	10-02-2005 09:31									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker We don't care about laws. We just don't want them to do it. There's no hypocrisy. We don't think of them as bad people for wanting to get nukes (ignoring the argument that they'll be more irresponsible than we will, at least from our POV). We just don't want them to get nukes, so we'll do what we can to prevent it.

Exactly, rightwingers like to structure laws and dictate the behaviour of everyone else soley for their own self-centered desires. (Rather than structuring just laws and living by them as you would expect others to - ie, not being a hypocrite.)

	10-02-2005 09:35									#109
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It has done good things. The overall vision of the US leaves something to be desired though, that's what scares people. The US, at times, seems to want to impose what it considers good, and obviously for it's own benefit. Then you have people like Sprayber, who just don't care about anything but power and money.

	10-02-2005 09:39									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin China, North Korea, Israel, India, and Pakistan won't get rid of theirs so what good does it do the west & Russia to get rid of theirs? We'd only weaken our position.

That wouldn't weaken your position. You having nukes doesn't make you less succeptable to being nuked, it just means you can nuke someone else. In that sense, geting rid of the capability to nuek another country doesn't weaken you (unless you do intend to nuke somoene else) and can actually strengthen your position because you are saying that you don't intend to use nuclear weapons, and in the eyes of the world you now gain a sort of moral high groundand by extension a basic immunity to nuclear strikes anyways - how would the world react to a country nuking another after agreeing to disarm their nuclear weapons? That would be more MAD than any interaction between two nuclear powers could ever be.

And remember, you can dstroy nuclear weapons but you can never destroy the potential to build more of them...

	10-02-2005 09:40									#111
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Do you seriously think that any modern country couldn't, if they wanted to, quickly (re)build nuclear weapons in a matter of weeks in response to someone breaking such a treaty?

What about Canada?

Seriously, most likely no. It takes time to build the basic facilities before you can proceed.

	10-02-2005 09:40									#112
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quote: Then you have people like Sprayber, who just don't care about anything but power and money.

Like most countries in the world. Though Spray actually admits it.

	10-02-2005 09:42									#113
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I dont have money nor do i have power but i will go were work takes me. If its in a leper colony so be it im a nurse and i will always give what i can. The country I live in has lots of [people jus t as me but i see your point. There are those that dont feel this way

	10-02-2005 09:45									#114
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Oerdin: I believe the correct term is "realpolitik" without c, regardless of the language used.

quote: You have to carrot and stick them into realizing we'll moderate if they moderate but if they insist then there will be confrontation. First economic then military. But if they agree to be good boys and give up the nukes we'll give you X,Y, and Z.

This would be a good method.
However, do you remember how you attacked Iraq after Hussein disarmed? He even agreed to destroy many of his conventional weapons. Your reward?

Look at this situation from Iran's viewpoint. There's no way in hell how disarming would be rational after what happened to two of their neighbours. That's why I'm excepting EU authorities (moran southerners, they're hurting all of our reputations without realising it) who are seeking a peaceful way to get PWNED by Iran.

quote: Iran would be no more dangerous with nukes than Pakistan would be.

Pakistan and Iran might both have Islam as their main religion, but what does that prove? Pakistan is led by a secularist US puppet, Iran by insane group of fundie clerics who regard US as the Great Satan. Yeah, "no more dangerous". Whatever.

	10-02-2005 09:45									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What about Canada? Seriously, most likely no. It takes time to build the basic facilities before you can proceed.

Canada and 43 other countries in the world have the capability of building nuclear weapons.

Weeks might be an exageration... I don't really know how long it would take. But it probably wouldn't take long, especially if nuclear tensions errupted.

	10-02-2005 10:06									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Then you have people like Sprayber, who just don't care about anything but power and money. Like most countries in the world. Though Spray actually admits it.

Most countries don't only care about money and power. I wouldn't even put that on the US. Sprayber, however, admits to not giving a damn about morality.

	10-02-2005 10:07									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski I dont have money nor do i have power but i will go were work takes me. If its in a leper colony so be it im a nurse and i will always give what i can. The country I live in has lots of [people jus t as me but i see your point. There are those that dont feel this way

Nurses

	10-02-2005 10:09									#118
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quote: Most countries don't only care about money and power.

What world do you live in? Of course they do. They just won't come out and say it. Machiavelli's "The Prince" shouldn't have been so shocking. It was just describing the way things were (that's why it's been called more of a manual than anything else).

quote: Sprayber, however, admits to not giving a damn about morality.

So?

	10-02-2005 10:13									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Most countries don't only care about money and power. What world do you live in? Of course they do. They just won't come out and say it. Machiavelli's "The Prince" shouldn't have been so shocking. It was just describing the way things were (that's why it's been called more of a manual than anything else).

It's a manual for rulers to maintian their rule. It has nothing to do with world peace. Therefore, it is of no interest to anyone who cares about other things besides power.

	10-02-2005 10:27									#120
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quote: It's a manual for rulers to maintian their rule. It has nothing to do with world peace. Therefore, it is of no interest to anyone who cares about other things besides power.

You mean... like everyone country in the world.

World Peace . Yeah, because countries really would promote that if it went against their interests, right?