10-02-2005 05:44									#1
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I can't take it anymore. I visit the Democratic Underground forums every so often, but now, these people are really driving me insane.

I was in this thread about Iran, and everyone there is all like, OH YEAH BUSH SUCKS... which is fine, I hate Bush too.

But I post something that got 2 responses that just made me shake my head.

These people think it's all right for Iran to have nuclear weapons. UHHHMMM WAIT A MINUTE. We're talking abotu Islamic fundamentalists who sponsor terrorism (Hezbollah).

And then, everyone is all like... "OMG BUSH IS TEH EVIL, IRAN IS NICE"

I don't think I'm going to go to the DU that much anymore. Their Bush hatred has made them retarded.

	10-02-2005 05:47									#2
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hmmm... I don't even like the Iranian govt. In fact I don't want anyone else to have nukes that doesn't have any. I want to get rid of the ones that already exist.

	10-02-2005 05:48									#3
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Iran has as much right to have life terminating weapons of mass destruction as the US - in other words none.

You, the only nation in mankinds history who have used these horrible weapons have no right to dictate who has the right to these. You who permitted Pakistans nuke program...

	10-02-2005 05:52									#4
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Every country has a right to seek WMD just as we have a right to make their lives hell to discourage them from getting them.

	10-02-2005 05:53									#5
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Surely you must realise you are not the only ones who can make other peoples life hell.

	10-02-2005 05:54									#6
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@Oerdin:That makes no sense.

	10-02-2005 05:57									#7
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Kid, there are no natural laws forbidding a country from persuing any weapon they have the ability to build. Humans construct those laws in order to reach ideals (such as a safer world or no nukes) but the truth is no one can put the genie back in the bottle. So does one country have a right to say these countries can have nukes and others can't? Nope, they have just as much right to them as we do so we can't base or objections upon moral arguments.

Instead it simply becomes we, a coalition, have decided we don't want weaker powers to have nukes and we will punish anyone who tries. We can offer bribes to encourage good behavior but that's about it.

Edit: The first post was aimed at Laurentius who was claiming no country had rights to weapons which kill.

Last edited by Oerdin on 10-02-2005 at 06:07

	10-02-2005 05:59									#8
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So why did your honour let Pakistan have nukes thus almost starting India-Pakistan nuclear war?

	10-02-2005 06:02									#9
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DU is stupid... throw rocks at it

	10-02-2005 06:03									#10
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Uhhh... India had nukes first.

	10-02-2005 06:03									#11
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But we have WMD, so how can we

1) say nations don't have a right to them

2) invade other countries for trying to get them

	10-02-2005 06:03									#12
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They've had them since the 1970's just like India. That predates the NNPA so there really isn't much we can do about it is there? I'd try to encourage them to disarm but it won't happen because India won't give them up. That just leaves forced disarmorment which is impractical since we need the Pakis. Thus it is all realpolitick.

	10-02-2005 06:04									#13
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quote: But we have WMD, so how can we 1) say nations don't have a right to them 2) invade other countries for trying to get them

because

quote: we have WMD

	10-02-2005 06:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But we have WMD, so how can we 1) say nations don't have a right to them 2) invade other countries for trying to get them

Once again realpolitick. If you do this I will hurt you very badly; If you do that I will help you. Brute force and bribery since we have no moral grounds to deny others things which we won't deny ourselves.

Also since the invention has been made and people know how to build nukes we can't just disarm because other people would then have an advantage over us. This genie is out and all we can do cajole people into slowing it's spread.

	10-02-2005 06:09									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So does one country have a right to say these countries can have nukes and others can't? Nope, they have just as much right to them as we do so we can't base or objections upon moral arguments. Instead it simply becomes we, a coalition, have decided we don't want weaker powers to have nukes and we will punish anyone who tries. We can offer bribes to encourage good behavior but that's about it.

I don't know what to say to this. You say you don't have a moral argument. You pwn yourself.

	10-02-2005 06:11									#16
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Right wing hypocrites who don't want laws controling weapons in their own country, but do want laws controling the weapons of everyone else.

	10-02-2005 06:13									#17
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What does morality have to do with this?

	10-02-2005 06:14									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Once again realpolitick. If you do this I will hurt you very badly; If you do that I will help you. Brute force and bribery since we have no moral grounds to deny others things which we won't deny ourselves. Also since the invention has been made and people know how to build nukes we can't just disarm because other people would then have an advantage over us. This genie is out and all we can do cajole people into slowing it's spread.

You can't just say that it is right because it's the best thing for the US. You have to have a reason why it is good for the world. The best thing for the world is to start working towards getting rid of these weapons, but the US stands in the way, and is actually trying to start a new arms race.

	10-02-2005 06:14									#19
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Right wing hypocrites who don't want laws controling weapons in their own country, but do want laws controling the weapons of everyone else.

Pretty ****ing brilliant if you can pull it off

Again, morality means jack

	10-02-2005 06:17									#20
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What hope do we have if morality means **** to you?

	10-02-2005 06:17									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Again, morality means jack

So say those without morals. Good luck convincing those of use that do of this. No one is likely to listen to you at all.

	10-02-2005 06:20									#22
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Right wing hypocrites who don't want laws controling weapons in their own country, but do want laws controling the weapons of everyone else.

You haven't really thought that through have you? Neither has Kid. Let's assume we sign treaties and all the law abiding countries make their nukes disappear. Great isn't it? Well, then again maybe not because we'd have cheaters like North Korea and Iran would build them any way and now we wouldn't have any deterrent when an aggressive dictator feels he can use his nukes. Wouldn't we?

That's why I said the genie is out of the bottle. Have all the teary eyed optimism you want people know how to build nukes and not everyone wants to get rid of nukes even if we do. Unilateral disarmament isn't any solution at all but you still want to stop their spread. What do you do?

Seriously, I'd like to know if you have a practical solution or if all you do is whine.

	10-02-2005 06:23									#23
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Cheaters like Iran!? What makes you think your morals are better than theirs?

	10-02-2005 06:24									#24
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius What hope do we have if morality means **** to you?

Morality is nice but it's hard to stop an aggressive dictator with arguments about morality. Instead you need coalitions and superior weapons. The goal in realpolitick is to make relatively benevolent countries maintain a strong enough coalition to deter and scare the nonbenevolent countries into towing the line.

	10-02-2005 06:25									#25
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Cheaters like Iran!? What makes you think your morals are better than theirs?

There you go with morals again. We aren't talking about morals we're talking about interests. Surely, you can follow that. The west and the other capitalist powers need to see that it is in our interest to halt the spread of nukes even if we can't ever eliminate nukes. Thus we do what it takes to bribe, cajole, or even brow beat the reticent.

	10-02-2005 06:26									#26
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Quick question. which country is gonna stand up besides the us to try and keep peace? Sure the us makes these weapons but dont hide the fact that we do. do i want some other country to drop the wmd in my backyard hell no. What are the other options but to stop those who cant control them from making them

	10-02-2005 06:27									#27
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Ranting about Realpolitik is so Cold War. Surely we can do better

	10-02-2005 06:29									#28
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Mrs. Tuberski. Noone else obviously, I mean USA is the country GOD created just to guard other nations

Aww how not-nice it would be if someone would carpet bomb your back yard, well it surely is better to carpet bomb those sand niggers back yards in Baghdad first.

	10-02-2005 06:29									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You haven't really thought that through have you? Neither has Kid. Let's assume we sign treaties and all the law abiding countries make their nukes disappear. Great isn't it? Well, then again maybe not because we'd have cheaters like North Korea and Iran would build them any way and now we wouldn't have any deterrent when an aggressive dictator feels he can use his nukes. Wouldn't we? That's why I said the genie is out of the bottle. Have all the teary eyed optimism you want people know how to build nukes and not everyone wants to get rid of nukes even if we do. Unilateral disarmament isn't any solution at all but you still want to stop their spread. What do you do? Seriously, I'd like to know if you have a practical solution or if all you do is whine.

The thing is that the US has 10,000 nukes. Russia has more I believe. The highest risk is destruction of the world, not whether or not a dictator gets a nuke and can use it to get negotiating power. We should destroy most of our nukes.

	10-02-2005 06:30									#30
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The US has the legal right to seek to end any illicit weapons program because Iran signed the NPT, which forbids it from aquiring nuclear weapons. Iran has not yet stated they are planning to leave the NPT, so legally they do NOT have the right to nukes. That said, they do have the option of leaving the NPT at any time they wish.

The problem is the Bush adm,in. and the Europeans aqre demanding Iran undertake no Uranium enrichment, the problem being Iran has every right under the NPT to enrich uranium.

That said, whether Iran gets nukes or not is a function of whether the Iraninasn want them or not too badly- the US has no diplomatic nor military options right now that would stop the Iranians. Personally, I think even a democratic Iranian government has reasons to seek nukes, thought US objections to Iranian nukes would probably melt away if a pro-US regime took control.