10-02-2005 10:28									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger No. The US has no right to invade any other sovereign country.

Never? What about a case like Panama under Bush Sr. where to government was completely corrupt, was shipping drugs into the United States, and was threatening to nationalize the Panama Canal which the US still had a legal right to for another decade? Was the US right to topple a corrupt dictator and set up the fully functioning democracy which exists today. Did the US have a right to invade Afghanistan when the Afghan government was shielding Al Qaeda terrorists who had murdered 3000 American citizens and caused billions and billions of dollars in damage?

I think your use of absolute terms such as "no right" does not reflect reality.

	10-02-2005 10:42									#122
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd What do you expect to happen - some "aggresive dictator" secretely building up a nuclear arsenal powerful enough to destroy the entire world without anyone knowing?

Of course not. I'm worried about North Korea invading South Korea and threatening to nuke American or Japanese cities if we intervine to help our ally. currently the North wouldn't think of doing that because it would mean their total destruction. They'd fire off their one or two and we'd return fire with 10,000. Not even Kim is that stupid. Let's say we unilateraly disarm like Kid has said then how do we stand up to a nuclear armed dictator when his forces are invading south Korea. How would we stand up to a nuclear armed Iran when if they decided to grab the huge Kuwait oil fields like they tried to do in 1985 (because they were helping Saddam finance the war plus the mullahs wanted the oil)? Back then they were stopped by Saddam's Army using poison gas for the first time. That won't help next time.

Similiar arguements can be made for an aggressive PRC which wants to annex Taiwan. For the last 56 years their aggression towards Taiwan has been checked by the threat of American naval, air, and (yes) nuclear response. The only effective way to cow the militants of the world is use over welling military force to threaten them with. You cannot reason with the Hitlers and want to be Hitlers of the World.

	10-02-2005 10:46									#123
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And thus the conclusion of this topic is, Israel is always right.

	10-02-2005 10:47									#124
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Imran -- stop trying to play some cynical foreign policy, international relations -expert if you're not (EDIT: Let me just add that I'm not either). World peace is for, never against, every country's national interest. Fear and misunderestandings on an invididual level (ie. crappy leaders) cause wars.

	10-02-2005 10:48									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's a manual for rulers to maintian their rule. It has nothing to do with world peace. Therefore, it is of no interest to anyone who cares about other things besides power. You mean... like everyone country in the world. World Peace . Yeah, because countries really would promote that if it went against their interests, right?

Only powerful nations like war, because they can win. Weaker nations want peace.

	10-02-2005 10:49									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's obvious that nukes are an important weapon for the US to continue this role. First, the US needs to change it's role in the world. That would help create a more peacefull world. And then it might be possible to destroy nukes.

Can you please expand on that? I'm assuming when you claim the US has a bully role that you mean the US shouldn't be the global police man who goes after Saddam when he invades Kuwait, invades Panama when their dictator is selling drugs and threatening to nationalize the canal, occupy Haiti when it's government falls apart, or go after the Taliban when they supported terrorists. I for one see a huge global upside to having someone enforce some form of law and structure on the world even if it is tilted toward a capitalist and democratic western view point.

By being more peaceful do you mean not do those things?

	10-02-2005 10:51									#127
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quote: Originally posted by VJ Imran -- stop trying to play some foreign policy, international relations -expert if you're not. World peace is for, never against, every country's national interest. Fear and misunderestandings on an invididual level (ie. crappy leaders) cause wars.

I graduated with a degree in political science. I think I know what I'm talking about . World peace is not ALWAYS for every country's national interest. That's just foolish. Was it for or against the United State's national interest to fight a war against the Mexicans in the 1840s? Was it for or against the Prussian national interest to fight the French in the 1870s? The answer to both is a resounding FOR! World peace would have hurt them in their national interests of accumulating far greater power.

	10-02-2005 10:57									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Only powerful nations like war, because they can win. Weaker nations want peace.

Well duh! But if you think the weaker nations do not care about their power while campaigning for 'peace', you are sadly mistaken. Only Switzerland wants to be left alone. Everyone else wants a bigger say. War ain't the only way to gain power. It's just one way (policy by other means).

	10-02-2005 11:00									#129
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Imran has hit it spot on with his last two posts.

	10-02-2005 11:06									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin By being more peaceful do you mean not do those things?

Being a communist I'm obvious opposed to a lot of the action that the US takes. It's more a matter of blaming the most powerfull nation for me. If the US took a more hands off approach to the world it's hard to say whether things would actually be better, but I do think that the world would be more likely to destroy it's nukes.

	10-02-2005 11:07									#131
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quote: I do think that the world would be more likely to destroy it's nukes.

You are really not living on this planet, are you?

	10-02-2005 11:10									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well duh! But if you think the weaker nations do not care about their power while campaigning for 'peace', you are sadly mistaken. Only Switzerland wants to be left alone. Everyone else wants a bigger say. War ain't the only way to gain power. It's just one way (policy by other means).

Power to defend yourself is one thing. You do that by forming alliances and negotiating for peace. The US has 10,000 nukes. That's something else. That's power to dominate. That's the kind of power Machiavelli was talking about. Most nations aren't even concerned with that, only trying to prevent other nations from getting and maintaining that power.

	10-02-2005 11:13									#133
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quote: Power to defend yourself is one thing. You do that by forming alliances and negotiating for peace. The US has 10,000 nukes. That's something else. That's power to dominate. That's the kind of power Machiavelli was talking about. Most nations aren't even concerned with that, only trying to prevent other nations from getting and maintaining that power.

Power to defend yourself? No... power to gain a greater say in the concert of nations. To be a player. To have others listen to you. And one reason that countries are concerned with other countries getting a 'power to dominate' is because it severly reduces their power.

You have a seriously skewed view of things that borders on the "USA - bad, everyone else - good". Countries are not into gaining power solely to defend themselves. That's just silly.

	10-02-2005 11:18									#134
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This only shows how people like you see what's inside of yourself only and project that view outward to the world. Other nations are not in the same position in the world and so they have different objectives.

	10-02-2005 11:21									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious This only shows how people like you see what's inside of yourself only and project that view outward to the world. Other nations are not in the same position in the world and so they have different objectives.

No, this only shows your idealistic view of the world is totally and hopeless so out of touch with reality that no one should listen to you. The ultimate objective is the same, more say in the world community, ie, power. Though for some reason you equate it to war, which is only one way to gain that power. No country wants a lesser say in the world.

	10-02-2005 11:22									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: And you have a practical means to prevent the proliferation of WMD? We've already gone over why their total elimination is an impossibility so please don't bother with impractical responses. I have a better response. I don't care if Iran gets nuclear weapons. They are less likely to use them than, say, Pakistan, and nuclear weapons are essentially defensive in nature anyway. North Korea is worse than Iran in every way, yet even they won't use them because they know that you cannot use them and win.

So in your opinion it is desirable for everone to have WMD and you feel this would make the world safer? I don't believe many people would agree with that.

	10-02-2005 13:00									#137
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The American's behaviour with regard to Iraq and North Korea is all the incentive the Iranians need. If you have nukes, they will leave you alone. If you don't have nukes, they will say you do and then attack.

We only need to remember the empiricism-free 'case' against Iraq.

	10-02-2005 13:17									#138
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There's a typo in the thread title - it should be moran

	10-02-2005 13:36									#139
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Less boring nuke talk and more DU bashing plz kthxbye

But it's a little late to realize now that DU is completely insane, isn't it? I mean, with everything (and I mean everything) that happens in the US not concerning politics that gets news space being a 'Rove diversion' from whatever political the DUers being concerned this week, any vote from any Democrat that DUers don't like eliciting a chorus of 'Welp I'm going Green Party now', anyone who opposes any anti-American dictator being accused of pro-Bushism... That place's only fit for humorous purposes. Which has always been my forte!

	10-02-2005 16:03									#140
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Surely you must realise you are not the only ones who can make other peoples life hell.

Your posts are ample proof of that.

	10-02-2005 16:05									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The thing that I would really like to see is the US become less hostile, and drop all this realpolitic ****. This kind of attitude is the problem.

I thought Neo-Conservatism was the problem? At least with Realpolitik your behavior is comprehensible to the leaders of other states, therefore predictable and works well within the existing system.

	10-02-2005 16:08									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So you don't mind if I buy a gun and threaten to shoot you with it if you try to get one? Then I suppose anything goes after that, huh?

When has the U.S. threatened to nuke the Iranians if they persue their nuclear program?

	10-02-2005 16:09									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I think that anyone who advocates might as right should get their head punched in to teach them a lesson. After all, it's a lesson that most people learn in grade school.

Thank god we have philosphy professors to handle this sort of thing.

	10-02-2005 16:19									#144
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Exactly, rightwingers like to structure laws and dictate the behaviour of everyone else soley for their own self-centered desires. (Rather than structuring just laws and living by them as you would expect others to - ie, not being a hypocrite.)

And left-wingers like your avatar are all about selflessness eh? My poor mistaken brothers in the Republics just don't understand how by terrorizing them, murdering them and transporting them I'm going to give them all better lives.

	10-02-2005 16:22									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Only powerful nations like war, because they can win. Weaker nations want peace.

That must be why the overwhelmingly powerful Sunni Arab faction of the defeated state of Iraq wants a war with both the majority of their countrymen and the U.S. Because they are powerful. Stick to something that you know very little about and avoid the subjects that you know nothing about please.

	10-02-2005 18:07									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander That must be why the overwhelmingly powerful Sunni Arab faction of the defeated state of Iraq wants a war with both the majority of their countrymen and the U.S. Because they are powerful. Stick to something that you know very little about and avoid the subjects that you know nothing about please.

Shows how much you know. Since when is a faction a nation?

	10-02-2005 18:09									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander When has the U.S. threatened to nuke the Iranians if they persue their nuclear program?

Are you kidding? Building a nuke and threatening nations is the same thing.

	10-02-2005 18:10									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander And left-wingers like your avatar are all about selflessness eh?

Mario is a hero, and don't you ever say otherwise.

	10-02-2005 18:10									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I thought Neo-Conservatism was the problem? At least with Realpolitik your behavior is comprehensible to the leaders of other states, therefore predictable and works well within the existing system.

How are they different?

	10-02-2005 18:13									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, this only shows your idealistic view of the world is totally and hopeless so out of touch with reality that no one should listen to you. The ultimate objective is the same, more say in the world community, ie, power. Though for some reason you equate it to war, which is only one way to gain that power. No country wants a lesser say in the world.

There are different kinds of power. Power to rule the world. Power to open a can of olives. Power to stay alive.