10-02-2005 20:22									#1
	Did you recieve mandatory religious education at any point of your life? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, I was mildly surprised learning that Greece has mandatory religious education. Up until now, I thought that was stuff for fundies and their ilk, but I guess it can happen anywhere.

In any case, I consider it an atavism, a remnant of past, a sign of backwardness. (How the hell is it even constitutional? Most constitutions in most countries guarantee religious freedoms!)

But now I learn that FINLAND also has mandatory religious education!!! What the HELL is that, how did that happen?? When?? Why??

And ... who else? I dread to ask, but is there a European Bible Belt too? . Spanning from Finland through... Poland? (could be) and all the way down to Greece? What countries comprise it?

I'm waiting for your responses with trepidation here, for I fear the number may be larger than I thought. At least I know France is not one of them

Proudly stating for Croatia: religious education exists in primary and secondary schools, but it is NOT mandatory. Everyone attends only because of social pressure, especially in small communities where you can't afford to stand out.

Last edited by VetLegion on 10-02-2005 at 20:28

	10-02-2005 20:31									#2
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It's part of the compulsory curriculum in sweden from secondary-level onwards. It's nominally a kind of "comparative sociology/anthropology of religions" course but in practice tends to be taught by rabid free-church (radical protestant) nutcases, often in cardigans.

I left Sweden age 11, thank god, and so missed out on that crap.

	10-02-2005 20:36									#3
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Certainly isn't mandatory in Canada.

	10-02-2005 20:39									#4
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Yep. We had one hour a week in our schools where we were shipped off to church. It wasn't exactly mandatory, but it was strongly encouraged. This was in a public school and was clearly unconstitutional, and resulted in my becoming religious for about a decade of my life.

	10-02-2005 20:40									#5
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from the other thread:

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Man, that's like, Saudi Arabia. And Greece. Crazy. Sadly, but I have to demote Finland in my eyes from No 1 county on Earth to "a place to visit and laugh at the fundies"

Well things aint so bad yet.

On the religion lessons pupils are taught to respect other religions and they are taught about muslims, jews, hindus and buddhists in a very respecting manner. So its not just about christianity, its more of a broader scan to the world of religion. And its mandatory to everyone who is officially ev. lut. Orthodox pupils have religion lessons of their own but catholics, muslims, atheists et all get to go to these ethics classes instead. That pissed me off since I already knew quite alot about the other religions and really wanted to learn non-religios ethics, universal moral values, philosophers, human rights and international relief work. That would have been interesting...it was taught by our schools philosophy teacher.

Another reason was because our religion teachers nickname was "the crusifier"

	10-02-2005 20:45									#6
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yep. We had one hour a week in our schools where we were shipped off to church. It wasn't exactly mandatory, but it was strongly encouraged. This was in a public school and was clearly unconstitutional, and resulted in my becoming religious for about a decade of my life.

You must be talking about what in NYC was called "released time" - catholic kids could leave school early once a week, to get religious training on church grounds, of course, and we Jewish kids got to stay and have fun (of course OUR religious school was AFTER school hours) It WAS constitutional, IIUC, since no public funds were involved, and nothing happened on school grounds. I dont know what the social pressures were within the CATHOLIC community, but obviously no non-Catholics were part of this.

	10-02-2005 20:48									#7
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Well, Finland has an Evangelic Lutheran state church (that's right, no state-church separation for us) which has a few anachronistic powers like the right to collect a church tax from all members of the Church and private enterprises operating in Finland (even though all of their staff would be non-members, which is kind of amusing)

As another result, we have semi-mandatory religious education both in comprehensive school and senior high - any pupil/student who's not a church member attends the non-denominational and non-religious "elämänkatsomustieto" (lit. view of life knowledge) where they supposedly study the thinking of various philosophies and religions. What the religious studies involve seems to be depend quite much on the teacher: I for instance had mostly Biblical history and a few lessons on world religions in comprehensive school, but I've also heard stories of fouled-up fundie teachers who tell the kids that all "pagans" (kids who don't belong to the church) go to hell and so on.

The new law on freedom of religion changed this so that you can actually choose which one to study (before, non-members had a chance to pick religious studies, but members weren't allowed to study Elämänkatsomustieto, which was kind of unfair to them). I went with the religious lessons, since the Finnish church is very watered-down and liberal in its views and the single mandatory course was mostly about the worldly history of the Bible and Judeo-Christianism, so it wasn't that unappealing and the Elämänkatsomustieto lessons were kept only late in the afternoons because of the small number of people attending (89 percent of Finns still belong to the church, mainly because of tradition - I no longer do)

Edit: Since the Orthodox church also has the status of a state church alongside the Lutheran one, they have their own religious lessons - these were mostly kept in one school for all Orthodox pupils in town a few times per month. Other registered religious minorities, such as Moslems, have the right to have their own lessons (so I've heard) if they have enough pupils in a school - I think the minimum was five or so.

Last edited by Patriqvium on 10-02-2005 at 20:58

	10-02-2005 20:57									#8
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This "elämänkatsomustieto" is what I refer in my post as "ethics". I didnt know that nowadays you could pick wich one to study, thats great improvement

	10-02-2005 20:57									#9
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In the Netherlands there's a 'Life Philosophies' class in early secondary school that's officially mandatory (but often neglected). It's much like laurentius describes: it teaches students to respect other religions and gives a crash course on many religious and also non-religious world views: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, New Age, the teachings of Bhagwan and other cults, Scientology, atheism, etc, etc... It introduces all these and other world views and challenges students to not take anything for granted but think for themselves and choose or form whichever world view suits them best.

It's IMO one of the few actually useful courses in secondary school and should be compulsory everywhere

	10-02-2005 20:58									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Certainly isn't mandatory in Canada.

Yeah, but French is (or was) - not much different.

	10-02-2005 21:06									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus It's IMO one of the few actually useful courses in secondary school and should be compulsory everywhere

While I agree to certain extend the problem for me personally was that it wasent possible to attend both to these classes. You had to pick either one and also to leave the church if you wanted to take "life philosophy/ethics" instead or relion centered studies.

	10-02-2005 21:09									#12
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My teacher once mentioned something that was in the bible.

	10-02-2005 21:09									#13
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No, but in when I was a school kid in Eastern Germany they teached pro communist stuff - does that count?

	10-02-2005 21:12									#14
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius While I agree to certain extend the problem for me personally was that it wasent possible to attend both to these classes. You had to pick either one and also to leave the church if you wanted to take "life philosophy/ethics" instead or relion centered studies.

IMO the class I had was more important for religious people to take than for unreligious ones, as generally speaking religious people tend to be more narrow-minded (though obviously there are plenty of exceptions on both sides). So people shouldn't have to choose, it should be compulsory for ALL.

Of course, that's never gonna actually happen in the real world...

	10-02-2005 21:13									#15
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quote: Originally posted by dejon Yeah, but French is (or was) - not much different.

True - but looking back at it now, I'm glad it was.

	10-02-2005 21:14									#16
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No, never.

I took an optional World Religions class in Grade 10. Learned a lot.

	10-02-2005 21:45									#17
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by the way, the answer for me is no. I received "religious training" at my synagogue - while my parents certainly expected I attend, there was no state sanction.

From ages 8 to 10 i attended on Sunday only, learning bible stories, Jewish holidays, and about Israel. My earliest memory of such is performing as a candle in a Chanukkah play.

From 11 to 13 I had twice a week hebrew classes, to learn the Hebrew alphabet, as well as continued religion classes on Sunday. I was a very good student in Hebrew

From 12 to 13 I studied for my bat mitzvah - this involved learning torah and Hatarah blessings, and learning to read sections of the Torah and haftarah.

After 13 the rabbi tried to organize a post-Bar mitzvah confirmation class, but that fell apart from insufficient interest in my rather small congregation. I later went to a Reform Jewish summer camp where I learned more.


I first learned in any depth about non-Jewish religions from books. I learned about the variety of Christian groups from Will and Ariel Durants "The Age of Faith", a history of the Reformation era. I have since learned from books, and from friends. Ive read the gospels, and read about chinese religion and phil in college. Ive attended several church services, usually at weddings.

The religion (other than Judaism) i most want to learn more about now is Islam. Ive read a couple of histories, but nothing specifically on the religion.

My most recent Jewish religious studies had been reading Rashis classic commentary on the Torah - struggling to follow along the Hebrew, as well as using the Orlinskys english translation. However Ive since turned to reading POTMS bat mitzvah portion, as our synagogue expects parents to join their kids in learning.

BTW, POTM is l337 torah reader

	10-02-2005 21:59									#18
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Nothing even remotely religious was offered at my school. It was part of that whole church-state separation we blue staters have.

	10-02-2005 22:00									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Nothing even remotely religious was offered at my school. It was part of that whole church-state seporation we blue staters have.

released time was a policy of New York state. Is NYS not a "blue" state?

edit - apparently it stil is policy in NY.http://www.nycenet.edu/calendar/doc...or2003-2004.htm

	10-02-2005 22:03									#20
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Of course.
In Germany it is mandatory til the 10th class.
Either catholic, or protestant (which I attended to)
or muslim (although in some cases pupils could be exempted from them, for example because there were no organized religious lessons for their belief)

Aside from tha basics of christian religion we also had an overview over the different world religions and, AFAIK in contrast to the lessons the catholics got, our lessons also (especially later on) included a lot of sociology and religious critics, like Feuerbach.

Later, from 11-13th class, religious lessons were voluntary, you could take philosophy instead (for a short time I took lessons in both of them, but I abandoned philosophy, as the teacher preferred to teach things in a slow pace and so it very soon became boring for me ).
I even took Religion as 4th subject for my Abitur-Exams, as we had a good teacher and it was always interesting for me

	10-02-2005 22:10									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus IMO the class I had was more important for religious people to take than for unreligious ones, as generally speaking religious people tend to be more narrow-minded (though obviously there are plenty of exceptions on both sides). So people shouldn't have to choose, it should be compulsory for ALL. Of course, that's never gonna actually happen in the real world...

Actually, from my experience 'hard' atheists are more generally narrow-minded than religious people

Jon Miller
(now compare them to fundamentalists and they might be a bit less narrow-minded)

	10-02-2005 22:13									#22
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Mandatory in the UK. One hour per week
You learn about all the religions, not christianity.

My year was the final one that had to study it without the opportunity to take any exam and get any kind of qualification out of it. My younger sister got to sit an exam and get a GCSE for her one hour per week.

	10-02-2005 22:16									#23
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark released time was a policy of New York state. Is NYS not a "blue" state?

Never heard of it. What is it?

	10-02-2005 22:27									#24
	Re: Did you recieve mandatory religious education at any point of your life? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Well, I was mildly surprised learning that Greece has mandatory religious education. Up until now, I thought that was stuff for fundies and their ilk, but I guess it can happen anywhere. In any case, I consider it an atavism, a remnant of past, a sign of backwardness. (How the hell is it even constitutional? Most constitutions in most countries guarantee religious freedoms!) But now I learn that FINLAND also has mandatory religious education!!! What the HELL is that, how did that happen?? When?? Why?? And ... who else? I dread to ask, but is there a European Bible Belt too? . Spanning from Finland through... Poland? (could be) and all the way down to Greece? What countries comprise it? I'm waiting for your responses with trepidation here, for I fear the number may be larger than I thought. At least I know France is not one of them Proudly stating for Croatia: religious education exists in primary and secondary schools, but it is NOT mandatory. Everyone attends only because of social pressure, especially in small communities where you can't afford to stand out.

nope, I was spared that.

	10-02-2005 22:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Never heard of it. What is it?

Kids whose parents choose get released early to go to a church run religious ed program.

	10-02-2005 22:32									#26
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Protestant primary school, Catholic (Jesuit) secondary school. Got years and years of that stuff.

	10-02-2005 22:40									#27
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Kids whose parents choose get released early to go to a church run religious ed program.

We didn't get released early, it was after lunch, but before the end of the school day, so we had to return. IIRC, a school bus drove us to our individual churches.

	10-02-2005 23:09									#28
	Re: Did you recieve mandatory religious education at any point of your life? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Well, I was mildly surprised learning that Greece has mandatory religious education. Up until now, I thought that was stuff for fundies and their ilk, but I guess it can happen anywhere. In any case, I consider it an atavism, a remnant of past, a sign of backwardness. (How the hell is it even constitutional? Most constitutions in most countries guarantee religious freedoms!) But now I learn that FINLAND also has mandatory religious education!!! What the HELL is that, how did that happen?? When?? Why?? And ... who else? I dread to ask, but is there a European Bible Belt too? . Spanning from Finland through... Poland? (could be) and all the way down to Greece? What countries comprise it? I'm waiting for your responses with trepidation here, for I fear the number may be larger than I thought. At least I know France is not one of them Proudly stating for Croatia: religious education exists in primary and secondary schools, but it is NOT mandatory. Everyone attends only because of social pressure, especially in small communities where you can't afford to stand out.

There were no religious lessons in Poland before the fall of communism, and later there was a lot of discussion about it, but eventually there is such a course, not mandatory of course. Every religion is at least theorethically granted a course for its children as long as there's an interest in it. Atheists can have "ethic" courses if they like (there were "ethic" courses in my secondary school, but I don't recall anyone in my class attending it. I'm not sure, but I think they had the same dates for these courses for every class, due to lack of interest.
Some political forces want the grades of religion courses not to be placed on the overall diploma, and some want the courses to be placed either at the start, or at the end of lessons, so that people who are not attending them wouldn't have to wait - but everyone's attending it more or less, from my experience (However, I recall I discussed it with colleagues in my primary school and we believed it should be the first or last lesson).
Even me, and I was at some point very anticlerical and spent the lessons arguing with the priest.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Protestant primary school, Catholic (Jesuit) secondary school. Got years and years of that stuff.

Which is comletely right. Complain to your parents for chosing religious schools.

	10-02-2005 23:19									#29
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WEll when I went to school the public schools were all "denominational"-- Thus some people went to Catholic school and others to "integrated" (Anglican, United, Salvation Army).

Given the system there was suprisingly little religious instruction. We had the Lord's prayer every morning (you could absent yourself if you wished) and that was about it.

In higher grades, "religious studies" was a required course but again some people got exemptions-- Getting an exemption was kind of bogus since none of the courses advocated any given religion but merely taught you about their teachings, history and even church governance structure. We learned about hinduism, islam, christianity , judaism,buddism, shintoism, animism and a few more including atheism and agnosticism.

Oh and the school often did provide a venue for various clergy to hold after school instruction for confirmation or dedication for those that chose to do that.

	10-02-2005 23:22									#30
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I was forced to watch the sound of music over and over and over again every christmas in Sweden. Does that count?