18-08-2005 17:17									#151
	Got spare money?

the problem is, this makes the Horde stronger.

If we attack them, best to do it whilst Babylon and Euphorica are still nominally in the game, as we'll have tech partners.. Attacking horde also means alliance with LB - not *that* bad a thing.

I dont think we'd get much chance to build our defences - the Horde is REXing now, and we are now WEAK compared to them - but we have not upgraded any spears, nor build any units for a few turns.

We have some major decisions to make, but this thread is not the place.. i'll outline my thought on the matter and post a new thread.

	18-08-2005 18:00									#152
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

[13:18] James: still not got that save in
[13:19] Paddy: savage swords - I send to Mcmeadows
[13:19] James: doh!
[13:19] James: so u do
[13:19] James: hey, how is Plato getting on with the border talks
[13:21] James: The border I proposed in the first instance was based on having 1 tile around the three cities we wanted to plant. without knowing what Plato's reason was for pushing it back like he did, we couldn’t decide what the motive behind it was
[13:22] Paddy: no idea mate
[13:22] Paddy: may I make an opinion an aside
[13:22] James: yup
[13:23] James: could u make me lunch, with a side of fries?
[13:23] James: ;-)
[13:23] Paddy: Aqua getting upset was a bit much, as we accepted peace that you guys wanted

did we recieve anything?
[13:24] Paddy: lunch sure (pi) <- picture of a pizza
[13:24] Paddy: if we had attacked you you would not be getting anything
[13:24] Paddy: or you would be getting everything
[13:25] James: heh, I think Aqua has been taking his grumpy pills that evening
[13:25] Paddy: yes
[13:25] Paddy: well for border talks that have no need to be rushed he is pushing
[13:26] James: Our point of view - if we hadn’t destroyed the Euphorican military, we would not have this border to decide now, so we feel the border we proposed was a fair split of the lands - especially as you've already gained a city, and stand to gain the Prize of abba as well, if u play your cards right.
[13:27] James: what we dont get, and what angered Aqua, is that it looked very much like whatever border we'd sent, Plato would have pushed it back and said "hows that"
[13:27] James: he didnt explain why he wanted to move it back
[13:28] Paddy: well may I share this with you

the border as originally discussed - was we get U2 and you get Nirvana
then we move up at angles between them
[13:28] Paddy: anger is not needed
[13:28] Paddy: and aqua getting pissed makes us wonder what is going on
[13:29] James: thanks for the pizza btw. getting hungry now
[13:29] Paddy:
[13:30] James: that's cool about U2 - Plato should have said. but what about the rest of the border - it got pushed back a full tile all along the way
[13:30] James: u2 and nirvana were very close originally - that's been the problem there
[13:31] Paddy: I have said way too much mate
[13:31] Paddy: not my department
[13:31] Paddy: new era
[13:31] Paddy: I allow my people to do their jobs etc
[13:32] James: I shall await Plato's reply then. Hopefully the signal to noise ratio will be good, and he will not contradict himself again
[13:33] Paddy: be nice
[13:33] Paddy: remember we accept your desire for peace
[13:33] Paddy: and we have been nice
[13:33] James: those points are fair and valid points - go back and read the email exchange
[13:33] Paddy: no
[13:34] James: yes
[13:34] Paddy: not in my interest to read every detail over and over again
[13:34] James: ok
[13:34] Paddy: I have many duties
[13:34] Paddy: I have 17 team members
[13:34] James: I could quote you if u like, to show you the parts where he gets his facts wrong
[13:34] Paddy: and this border discussion is a discussion that has just started
[13:35] Paddy: no - you waste your time
[13:35] Paddy: I said my comments were an aside
[13:35] James: we should agree to no settle the area until the discussion is complete then
[13:35] James: fair enough
[13:35] Paddy: Plato and his people - you need to talk to them
[13:35] James: he's failed to reply
[13:36] Paddy: is there a rush on
[13:36] James: be good to get it settled
[13:36] Paddy: if so, why?
[13:36] Paddy: good luck to you all in that
[13:36] James: we take his silence to mean he has no idea what to reply with, because he has no answer
[13:36] Paddy: I look forward to signing a final document
[13:37] Paddy: j\he is busy
[13:37] Paddy: was in hospital last week
[13:37] James: yes I know that
[13:37] Paddy: so be nice
[13:37] Paddy: and chill
[13:37] James: I’m not the one who got worked up there
[13:37] Paddy: go harass McMeadows, Snoopy, and E_T

the ones who are screwing up the game by not playing the save
[13:38] James: haha, i'm on that case already
[13:40] Paddy: ok, I got to ask. Why do you need an explanation?

do you feel that we must explain ourselves
[13:42] James: it'd be nice if your allies understood *why* they needed those tiles. especially as the horde adjustment takes all the high ground, and leave them with a tile that borders one of our cities directly.
[13:42] James: also, platos border is daft, because it is impossible
[13:43] James: culture from that city that is bordered by the horde will take that tile - we can't avoid it
[13:43] James: same with other tiles
[13:44] Paddy: that being that you place the cities where you want
[13:44] James: we are not getting anywhere. if you would reveal where u wanted your cities, we could compromise.
[13:45] Paddy: you can place them where you want
[13:45] Paddy: we have asked that the border be where we asked is all
[13:45] Paddy: we did not write the border for your cities
[13:45] James: yes, but the WAY that border is picked, means a huge chunk of land goes to waste as we cant settle without violating the border
[13:46] James: I am alarmed you will not disclose your city sites - I was upfront and honest
[13:46] Paddy: we may not have sites yet
[13:46] Paddy: did you consider that
[13:46] James: yes
[13:46] James: which brings us back to my original point
[13:47] James: why did plato move the border back a tile all along the line?
[13:47] James: he tried a land grab
[13:47] James: not the way to treat your ally
[13:47] Paddy: hmmm
[13:47] James: neither is continuing to point out how u "spared" them when at war, now that an alliance has been signed
[13:47] Paddy: have you considered that we made our map a LONNNNNNNNg time ago
[13:48] James: no [had no considered that]
[13:48] Paddy: hey we accepted your desire for peace
[13:48] Paddy: we did not come to you asking for peace
[13:48] Paddy: and I see no reason for any anger
[13:49] James: have you considered that we were at war with Euphorica long long long before you arrived in the Hood, and that we might rightly claim all their lands as ours? they have been out target from the start
[13:49] James: that's where our map was drawn, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOG time ago
[13:49] Paddy: chill
[13:49] James: so now we need to compromise my friend
[13:49] Paddy: I am not the person for this chat
[13:49] Paddy: and I see no reason to rush this chat
[13:49] Paddy: yes compromise
[13:50] Paddy: and Aqua spat in our faces with laughter, yet no "next" map has come from your side
[13:50] James: please see my emailed reply
[13:50] Paddy: so we await your next version
[13:50] James: no, I await Plato's reply
[13:50] Paddy: was there a map?
[13:51] James: no, I await plato answering the points I raised, and have re-iterated above
[13:51] James: it is pointless to pick a border if u have not mapped out where u will settler along it - we'll end up crossing over each other due to culture if we do that
[13:51] Paddy: ok, cool
[13:51] Paddy: so you say
[13:52] Paddy: well you await Plato
[13:52] Paddy: I am happy with that

[13:52] Paddy: and again, I see no reason to rush
[13:52] Paddy: if it was a rush then this would have been done with alliance papers
[13:53] James: I look forward to finishing the talks, in a spirit of equality and openness that befits our alliance
[13:53] Paddy: good value
[13:53] James: ;-)
[13:54] James: don’t get many of those for the pound
[13:54] Paddy: ok

	22-08-2005 20:15									#153
	Got spare money?

PLATO: Greetings Great Lord Moonbars!

James: hello Plato

PLATO: How is life in the mighty DR?

James: things are good

James: do u have any progress to report with the border?

PLATO: yes

PLATO: I have studied the proposal you sent along with several in the Horde

PLATO: I have a question of two

PLATO: The line was to go between Nirvana and U2 right?

James: yeah

PLATO: your map shows the ruins of Nirvana in your sphere

James: do u want to settle there?

PLATO: We have been talking of the tile just north of there. We were originally considering that location, but when we say your city sites, we felt there might be undue cultural problems for both of us

James: so u are proposing to settle 2 of the elephant?

PLATO: 2,1

James: so 7 from Nirvana

PLATO: yes. That is what is being proposed now

PLATO: on the mine

James: and resettle abba location, or somewhere else?

PLATO: we feel we will capture Abba

James: lol, I doubt it

PLATO: hehe...we have a plan. It includes you guys though. Working together we will do great things

James: what's the plan?

PLATO: Well, as you know I am not the general type. I think a co-ordinated attack is being discussed where neithier of us will have to sacrifice all our units, but neithier of us will walk away bloodless

James: lol, I am not sure we have commited any troops beyond Beachboys.

PLATO: I thought you guys wanted bards destroyed?

James: Abba was to be the Horde responsibility

PLATO: Not sure we can do it by ourselves

James: you need us to do all the fighting again?

PLATO: I am sure we will take the brunt of it, but we be allies in this cause, right?

PLATO: No, not asking you to fight FOR us, but WITH us.

PLATO: Together we can rule this world...at odds we do nothing but give everybody else the advantage

James: hum, well you would have to take that to Aqua. I dont see what our force in the area can really do, except get attacked by Euphirca as the weaker of the two stacks

James: the original plan was we'd march to U2 and Beachboys, and you'd do the rest

PLATO: Like I said, I not the general type and things still under discussion

James: not sure we'll be in a position to fight so that you can win Abba

PLATO: I know. If we have to go alone, we will. Not trying to change any agreement

PLATO: Just trying to build a fair and equal alliance

James: good. so assuming you either capture or resettle abba, that's a pretty good border

James: how is it equal when we do the fighting, and you win all the cities?

PLATO: Many misunderstandings in the past by many. Now is time for us to come together and be of one mind as great allies

PLATO: We NOT asking you to do all the fighting. We will take brunt of things as I said earlier

James: so assuming you either capture or resettle abba, that is a pretty good border

James: goof to hear

James: good

PLATO: Truthe be told, we will accept your boarder as is, but would like 6,7,8 Nirvana moved back a tile

PLATO: makes for a smoother boarder anyway and allows us to settle 7 Nirvana without undue cultural problems

James: if you plan to settle 7 of nirvana, that is fine

James: your border was impossible to create

PLATO: Okay, so we have agreement then? Your map with 6,7,8 Nirvana moved back one tile?

James: i am not clear what u mean by that

PLATO: My boarder was Horde fluff over Nirvan-U2 line being out of previous agreement. Consider it stuff for the trash can

James: 7 and 8 of nirvana are already on your side in my border

PLATO: oops my error

PLATO: let e restate

PLATO: Ruins of Nirvana and tiles 1, and 9 of ruins. My bad

James: yes, that is fine

PLATO: (H)

James: the tile 99 of nirvana may end up swapping about

PLATO: That is no problem

James: as may the one 999 of nirvana

James: one each on either of our sides, so is some balance there

PLATO: These are minor issues among friends

James: agreed

PLATO: Okay, I will ask Paddy to draw up a final boarder as I am no good with these maps and send it to you for confirmation

James: we will likely move the white city site south a tile

James: or possibly 3

PLATO: yes, eithier will allow us the long awaited trade route to be built

James: ;-)

PLATO: I am looking for ways that we can increase our co-operation and communication. It seems that we have had many misunderstandings of each other and I would like a new era in our relationship. Do you have any ideas for this I can present to the Horde?

James: we in DR are straight to the point sorts, pragmatic and unable to get drawn into blown out discussion. It would help if you took some of Aqua's comments to hearts - In talks, if we want 5 and you want 7, don't start by asking for 15, just ask for 7 and we can settle for 6.

PLATO: haha...good advice. Knowing each other better is the key

James: agreed

PLATO: I will make sure that all dealings from our side are fair and to the point. I am sure that we can expect the same?

James: naturally

PLATO: Okay then. I am off to the council hall to have the map drawn. Any other pressing matters we need to discuss?

James: dont think so

PLATO: Thanks for the chat then. I look forward to the future.

James: *waves*

PLATO: Bye

	22-08-2005 21:19									#154
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Plato has the unfortunate habit of either being a totally illogical prat who can't be reasoned with, or a genial friendly moron who leaves a situation more confused and unclear than how it started

	22-08-2005 21:51									#155
	New Border Proposal Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Here is the Latest border proposal, note we are not limited to the city sites I picked, just the border line. I think the sites I picked are OK though.

Attachment: 1125bc border talks proposal v4.jpg
This has been downloaded 30 time(s).

	22-08-2005 22:11									#156
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Again I say, we get enough room within the former Euphorican territory for what, 2 towns? BOH can plant at least 5 towns in "their" share of former Euphorican territory

	22-08-2005 22:19									#157
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

they captured Metallica, and plan to capture abba. we can hardly settle behind their lines and still hold the towns come war, nor do I have the godlike patience it would take to talk plato and then paddy into this, if it was even possible.

If you have any stomach for that task, I would be happy to bestow the laurels of my FO onto your shoulders for that task

Remember however that our own DR map has more of the fog uncovered - there is land not shown on the above, and that the land we have gained contains a luxury and some decent improved tiles, and one of three rivers, and is close to us and hence not that corrupt.

I agree that the Horde have managed to gain a lot more from this war than we have - but that is why we are still alive and they didn't kill us - they stood to profit more like this. We need to side with 1889 and the other honourable members of this DG and drive out the Horde, or at least register our disgust at their behaviour.

	22-08-2005 22:24									#158
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Sadly, I think this is the real truth:

quote: Originally posted by Moonbars nor do I have the godlike patience it would take to talk plato and then paddy into this, if it was even possible.

And no, you're doing a fine job with the unruly Horde rabble

	22-08-2005 22:40									#159
	Increase Your PM Length

Aqua, do you think Paddy and Plato are "role playing" so they can attack us at some point, or are they being genuinely annoying and overly verbose..

	23-08-2005 08:17									#160
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That is the million dollar question!

I trust Paddy more than the others, however he has demonstrated in the past that he is quite willing to use the excuse of "I wanted peace but I was outvoted", while at other times suggesting "nudge nudge, wink wink, they can say what they want but I am the Great Khan".

I think the truth is that they will do whatever it takes to win. Their biggest threats are ourselves because of our military, and AM because of their economy and proximity. They need to neutralise one of us after Euphorica are gone, because the Horde's outlook gets worse as the game progresses.

On the other hand, left alone I believe we can win this game without having to fire another shot. We have good land, enough room to expand into, fast workers and a reasonable infrastructure that will be improved over time.

But that's pie-in-the-sky, because the others probably won't allow us to do that....particularly if we choose Republic which long-term easily outsrips Monarchy/Feudalism.

	24-08-2005 08:45									#161
	Support Apolyton

More words from the in-house Drama Queen a.k.a the Lost Boy:

Your silence speaks clearly enough, but if you are not interested in my plans perhaps you care to make me part of yours.

I don't see how this game can be resolved without a major war and in that case I see no ally better than me. Maybe by that time there will be no ally other than me, as AM is showing itself more likely to work with the Horde rather than against.

If you doubt my abilities then let me assure you that unlike Babylon or Euphorica I am prepared and eager for action. You can see from my demographics that I am already the 3rd most powerful nation, but keep in mind that these stats will improve in 2 turns when I become a Monarchy. In addition half of my cities have a barracks and I have all military resources.

Let us show BOH what they abandoned by stabbing friends in the back. Cooperation will multiply our advantages.


He maks some good points, but gives away far too much about himself.

So, who wants to join him?

	24-08-2005 10:35									#162
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Me.

	24-08-2005 11:44									#163
	Tired of ads?

I think we should destroy Euphorica and then concentrate on building our civ. We need to settle the wilderness and prepare our defences with pikemen. I don't feel comfortable betraying the Horde. It isn't that I don't think they aren't scum, I just don't want to sink to their level.

	24-08-2005 16:22									#164
	Tired of ads?

How are we betraying them? You have not been a party to the drivel they speak, all the ego and posturing they do. They WILL be sticking the knife into us - if we simply state that we are ending the peace treaty, we are acting perfectly honourably.

The treaty doesn't mention anything about how long it lasts, etc, and you can be sure they will not be wanting a joint victory, hence at some point the treaty will be ended. I'd rather it was at a point and time of our chosing than of theirs.

	24-08-2005 16:27									#165
	Remove this text

We agreed to destroy Euphorica together, didn't we? Sure, they are full of crap but let's finish our agreement before we join any alliance.

	24-08-2005 16:53									#166
	Inflate your Upload Space

Indeed - we are still going to do that. Euphorica is in any event going to be a single city non-entity soon. Would you suppose joining the anti-horde alliance after E are gone?

I am not sure we should finish Euphorica - let the Horde do that, as it is they who stand to gain the ABBA. we should not risk your troops on this endevour.

	24-08-2005 17:16									#167
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Once the Euphoricans are gone I would prefer to be at peace with everyone and build our nation. But I don't think the Horde will leave us alone to do that. Still, to finish this war and jump right into another one is a bad idea.
Agreed that the Horde can take most of the risk. Though that means they gain more cities than us.

	24-08-2005 17:29									#168
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

they'll gain the city if we risk anything or not. we have no chance of taking the city.

If you agree that any peace is unlikely, surely it is better to ally with the other players fighting the horde than sit back and await the Horde beating them, followed by us. our best chance to strike the horde is now.

	25-08-2005 05:57									#169
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I agree we should let the Horde take Abba.

However, I am loathe to get into another war until we have improved our infrastructure a little - roads must be completed to provide our slow-movers with extra mobility. If we turn on the Horde too suddenly, they will have the opportunity of sending a stack of Horsemen/AC to rip through our poorly defended lands before our main stack has a chance to return.

Therefore, we also need to build some Pikemen to guard at home.

In addition, we need a government change before another war. If the Horde are eliminated, then we will be the only civ left in despotism. And make no mistake, while we have been building Immortals out of necessity to defend ourselves, AM and LB have been building Granaries, Libraries and maybe even Marketplaces. We will see the effects of this when our GA ends and we slip back to 4th or 5th in all the major demographics.

So my minimum estimate for playing an active part in a war with the Horde is 10-15 turns.

In addition, I would not be willing to participate unless we receive confirmed details of exactly how many and what type of units all other teams will be contributing to this next war. Right now our army is far superior to everyone but the Horde, and we don't want to face the brunt of their anger alone. At the same time, the new TNA of 3 have no chance against the Horde militarily without our participation (assuming they get AM to participate, which is still questionable). So I believe we will have quite a bit of clout with them!

	25-08-2005 06:00									#170
	Increase Your PM Length

I agree with Masuro in principle, but ultimately don't see BOH leaving us alone to do that, and would rather strike first, while there are others to help, than be forced to bring our troops to bear at a time and place of the Horde's choosing.

	25-08-2005 06:02									#171
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

And don't forget, last time I looked at the battle reports thread, AM were at war with both Babylon and the LB.

Perhaps we should wait until the three of them are united before joing any alliance against the Horde. Even this will be unlikley, as I believe they may be locked in territorial disputes.

	25-08-2005 10:37									#172
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 If the Horde are eliminated, then we will be the only civ left in despotism.

If the horde is eliminated, we'll win the game. However, that is not going to happen unless we stand with the others now..

	25-08-2005 11:10									#173
	Remove this text

I say we wait until we've got infrastructure and pikemen defense before going to war. And the other people need to get their act together before we join any alliance.
I also think it's a good idea not to agree to anything with anybody until we are ready to go to war. If we say to somebody, "We'll help you attack the Horde in 15 turns", then as sure as there's sh*t in a cat word will get back to the Horde and they'll jump on us.

	26-08-2005 16:23									#174
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Our inability to make a decision has cost us dear. 1889 has declared war on us - we are at war on two fronts now, with Euphorica and the Lost Boys.

could everybody review this thread

Last edited by Moonbars on 26-08-2005 at 16:41

	26-08-2005 21:44									#175
	Got spare money?

I have replied to 1889 and he has given us more time.

In response, I have now just sent him this:

Lord Nosferatu

Thank you for your consideration - we have no argument with you and do not wish a war on our southern front. Indeed, there is no justification for such a war.

We are not unmoved by your suggestion, however our troops are currently away from home and we will need a few turns to ensure the Horde does not turn on us and send troops to attack us before we can defend ourselves.

Surely you have a little more patience than your recent communications suggest. Remember, we're only playing at best one turn a week at the moment due to Euphorican and Babylonian delays.

And another thing - aren't you currently at war yourselves with AM? And AM with Babylon? How then can you present a united front against the Horde?

Good sir, there is much to discuss before you run around threatening your friends with words of war!

Aqualung the Desolator

	31-08-2005 15:23									#176
	Tired of ads?

hello

James: hi Plato

[Snipped mindless small talk]

James: sorry about aqua's outburst this morning

James: he;s getting very roudy these days

PLATO: not to worry about aqua. I would have done the same

PLATO: There is a plan

PLATO: I have been rather devious you see

James: really?

PLATO: yes.

PLATO: We have a new expert in military matters and he supplied me with some great intel from known game facts

PLATO: You see, The attack you took from the bards finishes them

PLATO: We will take Abba next turn due to it

James: i see you captured one of their cities this turn

PLATO: We took Rolling Stones this turn.

PLATO: Yes...and all because of your sacrifice

James: heh. bit suprised they made their stand where they did, to be honest

PLATO: Well, I may have helped them decide that

PLATO: hehe

James: oh?

PLATO: Yes, I had a rather elaborate plan that seemes to have worked out.

PLATO: Bards were to attack one of us...of that I felt sure. With the power they had in Abba, the numbers for a successful attack there were coming up a bit short. Your force was more than adequate to deal with BeachBoys. So, i opened discussions with them. I know this is a little out of line not to consult you, but I did not want you to think we double crossed you. That is NOT the case

PLATO: All part of a strategy to end the bards next turn

PLATO: We now have the power to take Abba outright

James: cool

PLATO: I felt like you would maintain strength enough to take BeachBoys regardless as it is probably very lightly defended

PLATO: Hope you guys not mad.

James: i doubt it. they have a fair few cats and fort spears

James: (unless they moved the spears)

PLATO: in BB? Really?

James: yup.

PLATO: I thought they had withdrawn everything to Abba...hmmmm

James: they has spears in BB last turn#

James: they could have moved them

PLATO: Interesting. I wonder if they plan to sail from there...hehe

James: perhaps.

James: you've done rather well out of this war, well played

PLATO: Well, our force calculations were for the entire nation. As they withdrew from every city we approaced I assumed the had done the same with BB

James: they attacked us from BB mate

James: we lost 5 immortals

PLATO: really? interesting. Then you were the target all along. Very interesting

James: i think they are attempting to mirror our own straegy

James: defeat one stack, then turn to the other

James: waht forces do you actally have in theatre?

PLATO: yes, perhaps. This makes it likely they will abandon Abba then...hmmm

James: that would be my guess.

PLATO: Not sure of exact composition but over 20 first tier units

James: suprised they let u get Rolling Stones

PLATO: hehe...so were they. More on that later. Let's just say that diplomacy can be as effective as troops...hehe

PLATO: I will send you some chat logs to show how the plan developed if I can get them declassified...hehe

James: ok

PLATO: I think Paddy had told aqua a few days ago that we had a Blood Cell Operation going against the bards. This is the result.

James: whats going on with Swords?

PLATO: Will you be needing military assistane with BB?

PLATO: Swords...no idea. I think McM is holding it up...not sure

James: need to wait and see save

James: possibly

PLATO: Let me know. I feel sure we could help, but would need okay from the top for a firm committment

James: k

James: we'll still have cats and horses fresh, not sure what state the immortals are in

PLATO: I really felt like they were in Abba...hmmm. I thought your battles would be done now

PLATO: Looks like a few are hurting pretty bad.

James: can u see the stack from your save?

James: what does your new military expert make of the Euphorican's army

PLATO: sorry...wife just got home. I wills see if we can foward some intel. You gonna be here for a few?

James: not that long, but a while yearh.

James: just mail me

James: will get it in morning if I not online

PLATO: okay. Thanks for the chat. I will be in touch

James: ok

	31-08-2005 15:57									#177
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yeh, Paddy sent me that today. I just got off the phone with him after blasting him for his lack of control over the rabble. I made the point that Plato in particular may think he's very clever playing mind games with Snoopy by tricking him int believing they have a cease-fire and so Rolling Stones won't be attacked, but that Plato fails to take into account the implications for his supposed ally....us! That Snoopy will therefore move his forces to Beach boys and mount an offensive against us!

I also told him we're not impressed that information about us has been handed to LB.

His response is that these things aren't intended, and he has torn strips off the offenders. My answer was that these are the sorts of events that give us reasons not to trust them. Bottom line is, he can't control his Horde. Some of them think we are their enemy because of our posts and emails. Unfortunately they haven't been involved in all the discussions.

As Paddy said, they really do act like a bunch of Mongols!

Anyway, they're not going to attack us, I'm fairly confident of that. At least, not for a while.

	08-09-2005 21:11									#178
	Support Apolyton

Here is the lay of the land as I see it:

The single most solid alliance in this game is LB and Babylon. This is long term and will not be broken through espionage. As evidence, witness the number of Babs who are members of the LB forum.

AM and Babylon hate each other with a passion, and I believe will be using each other as fodder in discussions with the Horde.....meaning, each wish to forge a peace with the Horde in return for feeding the Horde with intelligence on the other. LB are playing the game too, but of course they are firmly on the Babs' side.

None of them know where we stand......which is understandable, since we probably don't know where we stand either LB and Babs however would desperately love for us to join them in an alliance against the Horde. This would give their plans some teeth, and possibly sway AM to stop their aggression against the Babs and join - an important strategic plan due to AM's proximity to the Horde.

Horde are wary of AM and have a solid border guard. They are happy though to watch AM slowly destroy Babylon. LB meanwhile are desperately trying to get AM to stop their aggression against the Babs as they want a united front against the Horde.

The Horde have many voices, some of which are against us. Paddy however dearly wishes to stand behind his word, and sees us as an ally for now and for wars to come. We would be well advised to keep this perception alive as long as we can. They are most likely to want to attack LB, and this is consistent with their recent suggestions to us.

What is clear is that we have the respect of LB, Babs and AM, and therefore it is extremely unlikely that any of them will attack us. They feel we are pretty decent compared to others, have posted confidently when it is warranted and avoided the mud-slinging of others, and are not particularly aggressive despite the obvious qualities of our Immortals.

I doubt the Horde will attack us either, as they should know that an attack on us is likely to precipitate a 3 or 4-way alliance against them. In fact, as we speak Paddy is suggesting that we connect extra luxuries, build a road and trade. I have agreed to dedicate a Worker to that end.

So that's the world as Aqualung sees it.....based on the various sources of intelligence I have at my disposal.

	08-09-2005 21:22									#179
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

i'd question the LB <-> Bab alliance. LB are now under new management, and I do not think you'll find such a strong alliance between LN and Babylon. LN was talking about invading them a short while ago. who really knows? I don't

Perhaps we should attempt to sway public opinion inside the Horde in our favour. we could prepare a statement listing the problem's we've had trusting them, due to the "blunders" you mention.

	21-09-2005 01:14									#180
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Got this from our new Babylonain Ambassador:

Emmisary from Babylon to DR, 925 B.C.

Hail, Lords of DR.

We of Babylon greet you and honor your mighty nation.

It has been far too long since we exchanged courtesies.

We continue to survive and defend our homeland against the forces of evil that betray us and seek our extermination.

Our dignity and resolve both remain strong and we seek friendship and mutual support with our fellow civilizations.

How can we express our friendship to your people? We would greatly appreciate a gesture from you. Could you mass some troops on the borders of AM in order to help distract their forces from involvement with us? This would not involve you in any direct conflict and could easily be explained away if they questioned - but would still cause AM to alter their strategy.

Babylon, as a friendly state in the rear of AM, will undoubtably be of great use to you in your future efforts.

We ourselves doubt that we will prevail in the very end of this contest but in the meantime we have the direct and implacable commitment to ruin AM.

Please give this thought and feel free to respond to me as your go between.

Golden Bear, Emmisary to DR from the Golden Land of Babylon