07-06-2005 20:08									#91
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I have now approached the Angh-Morporkians with a suggestion of an alliance against the Horde.

	08-06-2005 05:56									#92
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think we need an ally at this point. Let's hope they are agreeable.

	09-06-2005 08:43									#93
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Discussions are continuing with Lost Boys (who favour an alliance with Babylon), Angh-Morpork and Babylon (who are very slow to respond to anything).

Euphorica are clearly our most aggressive threat.

The Horde seem to be mavericks - run by committee with a tail that apparently wags the dog, so very little structured strategy in what they are doing at the moment. I don't fear an all out attack from them anytime soon since they are at war with AM, who are much closer.

	17-06-2005 06:57									#94
	Increase Your PM Length

Just received this message from Ankh-Morpork:

Hello, Aqua,

I want to assure you we have no intentions to attack you nor your people. Our "army" consists of two regular warriors and one of them will leave your sight very soon. Probably you'll never see him again. The other one was put on a position just to watch and it is no real treat as you can see.

About our tech proposal - we'd really like to make it. But as e talked earlier this could not happen in the next ~ 20 turns. So, we have a lot of time to prepare our defences and hopefully enter the new era. After this we could make a research plan. This will allow us to see the situation and choose a partner between babylon and lost boys.

We could discuss an agreement republic for gold - there is no need to waste time both of us researching it. We could send you gold which should come in handy in this war.

Ormuzd,
Member of Ankh-Morpork


I suggest we talk to them about a possible military alliance against the Horde. Even though they have just made peace, you never know what they may be thinking. The synergies between our teams are quite interesting - we are the only 2 teams to have been attacked by the Horde, we are the only 2 teams to have had a city razed, and both our teams are micromanagers, which means economically we could become a powerhouse together. They also have the 4th most powerful army after the 3 civs at war.

Certainly having them weigh in on our side, even if they don't actively support us, would mean the Horde could not afford to send many more troops away from their homeland.

At the same time, talks of co-operation with Lost Boys and Babylon are not really progressing, so my idea of a tech-trading alliance of 3 teams probably won't work. But I think it would be good to have at least one firm ally. We may need to offer them something if we really want them as an ally.

Thoughts?

Moonbars, would you take over diplomatic responses to them please?

	17-06-2005 07:09									#95
	Increase Your PM Length

And now for a bit of perhaps irrelevant gossip, perhaps interesting intrigue that we can turn to our advantage.

I chatted with Ljube of the Horde on MSN this morning. He was previously an Ambassador until Paddy sacked him, and he claims that he is trying to get a support base going to depose the "Great Khan"

I'm not sure there's any benefit in us stooping to involve ourselves in their internal wranglings, but it may be an avenue of future negotiation to keep in mind.

But certainly trash talking Paddy to one of his own might be fun

	17-06-2005 17:06									#96
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Just received this message from Ankh-Morpork: Moonbars, would you take over diplomatic responses to them please?

Just seen this.. Will speak with Ormuzd when I get home.

	17-06-2005 18:13									#97
	Remove this text

Good, thanks. I just chatted briefly with him on MSN and asked him to add you. His address is todor_georgiev at hotmail.

	20-06-2005 06:10									#98
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I chatted with Krill last night. Military assistance is a no go unfortunately. They will only commit to advising us of Horde troop movements.

I tried telling him about the long term necessity of military intervention against the Horde. He effectively agreed, but said they just are not militarily read to have the Horde come down on them again. I wouldn't be surprised if the Horde exacted a high price for peace with them.

Moonbars, perhaps you can try drumming it in to him again and at least get some sort of commitment out of them. We need them building up their military pretty much immediately if they are going to be of use even in the medium term.

	30-06-2005 06:51									#99
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Lost Boys have sent us Construction and want Currency plus 3gpt in return (initially 40g, I replied with 2gpt and he countered with 3gpt).

I think we should accept - this makes him a friend for the next 20 turns

After this trade we will be in the Middle Ages with a free tech and the only Civ with Republic. If our free tech is Feudalism, we can build some Pikes


Note that this will also put Lost Boys into the Middle Ages, meaning there will be a few stacks of Barbs around!

	30-06-2005 06:57									#100
	Suffering from ads?

Yes, this is a good deal for us. We get tech, a leap into the next age, and (almost) a guarantee of no aggression. With luck, the barbarians will cause some trouble for our enemies. Especially the Euphoricans with all their damaged units.

	30-06-2005 07:21									#101
	Put an end to popups!

Given Plato's lies to us over an extended period of time, I put forward a motion that we direct Paddy the not-so-great Khan to replace him as Ambassador to the Desolation Row, as we no longer wish to deal with such a lying treacherous scumbag.

Anyone agree?

	30-06-2005 07:25									#102
	Inflate your Upload Space

They probably want a lying treacherous scumbag to deal with us. We are at war, after all.

	30-06-2005 07:36									#103
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes, but that's not the point. I say we refuse to deal with Plato. This puts Paddy in a difficult position - he cannot yield to our demands and replace Plato as this shows weakness, yet he cannot remove his forces and negotiate peace without his Ambassador. Meanwhile, perhaps we can convince Ankh-Morpork to become a little more aggressive.

Speaking of which, in my MSN chat with ormuzd last night he said he is interested in attacking Babylon for us, and will discuss it with Krill. Now that is a step in the right direction.

I think it's time for us to take the lead in political intrigue and behind the scenes lobbying. Paddy has been controlling world politics for long enough!

	30-06-2005 07:46									#104
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If we can't, or refuse to, negotiate with Plato and thus the Horde then they will just attack us. I don't think they will just go away and leave us alone.

Good news about ormuzd. Let's hope we get the ally.

	22-07-2005 08:07									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

We need to respond to Babylon's plea. A copy of Beta's dispatch to us follows:

Grand Desolator Aqualung.

Greetings Aqua. It has been an interesting few days in our world. With the change in the political situation, I thought it best that I contact you. I can confirm that Babylon has no intent or interest in pursuing with any aggression against DR. In all honesty and as you are more than aware - we were a bit player anyway. We cannot excuse our involvement in the TNA and the agggression targeted against DR. We entered with our eyes wide open, and rebuffed your earlier calls for co-operation, and your later calls for peace, as well as the peace urgings of the Lost Boys.

However, as you have obviously struck a new deal with BOH, you must be more than aware of their pivotol position in the TNA, despite all their gibberish in the public forum. I understand why they have done what they have done from a game, political, and military perspective. I am just not sure they fully understand the dynamics of a demo game. The world is not composed of a bunch of unthinking AI civs which you can cyclically atttack as per SP.

So - my purpose in writing is two fold. First - as I have stated above, to fully admit our complicity in the TNA aggression against DR. Secondly - to see if it is possible to repair our damaged relationship and move forward in this world. If there was a third purpose, it would be to warn you regarding BOH, but I suspect you have your eyes wide open as far as geo-politics and BOH go. In that respect, you are to be congratulated for finding a diplomatic solution to defending your homeland, following upon the heels your earlier successful military actions. I for one would not have thought BOH would abandon its allies so quickly given their strident and and very recent posturing and encouragement of its allies. Hence my warning.

So, it is with both humility and frankness that I write this letter. Babylon is not proud of its recent past - and we now seek some form of reconciliation and common ground in order to move forward.

Sincerely - Beta of Babylon.


And my response to date:

Lord Beta

While your communication has been a long time coming, I appreciate your candour. I can however make no comment at this time - your message has been sent to my Ministers for discussion and we shall respond in due course.

Aqualung the Desolator


I believe we need to provide a fuller response aimed at ensuring we do not have Babylonian troops to face in ou rrear while our army is off destroying Euphoricans.

Any suggestions?

	22-07-2005 08:08									#106
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have also just sent this message to the Lost Boy:

Lord Nosferatu

We are concerned about the escalation in tensions between the Lost Boys and the Horde, and indeed I remain puzzled as to your motivations for declaring war on such a powerful nation when you have little military to speak of yourself. Have you actually declared war in-game, thus providing the Horde with the benefit of War Happiness?

Be that as it may, I would just like to restate our position that we will not at this time be taking part in your alliance, and for security reasons we would appreciate you ensuring that neither Lost Boys nor Babylonian troops come anywhere near our lands. We have suffered greatly from the wars forced upon us by the TNA, and their actions and propaganda/lies have made us highly suspicious of everyone. Our sentries have thus been instructed to decapitate any non-Desolation Row heads that approach our lands, though hopefully that shall be confined to the many Barbarians that have sprung up around our territory.

Your friend
Aqualung the Desolator

Again, where should we go from here?

	22-07-2005 09:22									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Let's keep our responses simple. Stay out of our lands and we will be happy to trade with you. Enter our lands or plot against us and you will suffer the same fate as the Euphoricans.

	22-07-2005 11:47									#108
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Response from the Lost Boy:

Desolator Aqualung,

Yes, I have declare war on the Horde. War happiness is over rated.

You have earned a reprieve, so make the most of your peace. I hope that you will recover swiftly and soon join us against the Khan.

I have begun building a road between us, I hope you wont find it necessary to behead my worker. There are Mycenaean Barbarians far to the south who would be more deserving of such treatment.

I understand your suspicions and I'm working with Babylon and Euphorica to formally end the war between you. I hope you will consider their offers.

Your friend,
Lord Nosferatu

	22-07-2005 14:39									#109
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Shall we leave the worker alone? Or do we assume it's a spy?

	22-07-2005 21:09									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

i am not sure we want him building a road into our lands, it could be used as an invasion route.. However we should note that we can use it in reverse just as easily

	23-07-2005 12:13									#111
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

As long as the worker stays out of our territory, it will see, what, a town defended by an Immortal, our possession of which is no secret? Other than that we don't have a spearman in that particular town at the moment, and possibly what forces are tied down by the Hurrian uprising, I'm not sure what useful information the worker could relay. After all, that's only useful if they have an idea of what military that leaves at our disposal, which, with us being strong to everyone but their enemy, I don't think they have.

All in all, free invasion road outweighs any tidbits of intelligence they could garner, imo.

	25-07-2005 12:29									#112
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

More warnings from the Lost Boy:

Executioner Grim Reaper,

I see from your posts that you are enjoying the chaos that is raging outside your borders for a change. You deserve this peace but do not forget that the next war is already coming.

You have lost the opportunity to expand and grow. While others established cultures you were forced to produce an army. You can use this lull to try and catch up but how will you ever gain the lead. Military units are the cheapest builds in the game. You’ll lose even this edge if you ever let up.

Your victory has become a beacon to the nations of the world who are dedicated to stopping BOH. However, the respect you command will fade as the battle report thread fills with the thrill of our own victories and as we share the camaraderie of our own defeats.

You can not build a victory alone, but your prestige can lead us to one. Nobody has any love for Euphorica or Babylon, but what is the greatest form of victory; to destroy your enemies or to turn their energies to your own purpose? You will have to face the Horde again. Will there be a better time than right now?

Lord Nosferatu

Any ideas?

	25-07-2005 13:02									#113
	Got spare money?

Well, with Euphorica to the north and a growingly belligerent Lost Boys to the south, I think pretty much any time will be a better time to take on the BOH again. Of course, the irony in his "turn their energies to your own purpose" passage is delicious.

More to the point, I see no reason to trust or ally with Euphorica, primarily. Their bullshit prewar posturing and flimsy manufacturing of a causus belli shows them to be a far greater threat to world peace than the Horde, in my view. I can respect a band of marauders making no bones about their love of conquest more than a cowardly bunch who fabricates a war simply out of fear. The former will usually at least be easy to predict .

Assuming the planned invasion of the Lost Boys is still on the board, or at least under consideration, I think we should take a "semi-forced neutrality" position in our response. Make sure they realize we still have teeth (though the advisor screen will probably do that anyway), but stress that we need this time to recover from the war forced upon us by the TNA and to consider the best path for our proud nation. In other words, reply with the same bunker mentality and tone as your last correspondence with them. I wouldn't play the anti-Euphorica card, even though I think it lies on top of the deck in all our heads, because they may well interpret that as an implied threat. I wouldn't even play it with the addendum that we understand that the Lost Boys must do what they feel is necessary, and don't hold their alliance with the evil bards against them, since letting them hold some hope that we may yet join them against the Horde can only work to our advantage.

Obviously, we don't want to wait too long for the next war, but after reading through the threads in the main forum, it looks like our lot lies more with the Horde than this new crutch the Euphoricans have put under their arm.

	25-07-2005 13:41									#114
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Your words mirror my thoughts, but expressed with greater eloquence

[EDIT: Although I'm not sure I agree with your suggestion that Euphorica are a greater threat to world peace than the Horde.....still, regardless of that we are attacking Euphorica]

Last edited by Aqualung71 on 25-07-2005 at 13:51

	25-07-2005 14:29									#115
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Gracias.

On the threat issue, the Horde is a confident, strong and proud nation. I'm not suggesting that they're above starting a war (or being misleading/dishonest, as we know all too well) at all, only that they'll also see the time for consolidation of their gains or cutting of their losses, and make peace accordingly. Euphorica has been running scared from the first turn, as evidenced by their actions leading up to war with us. A scared nation will always see a looming threat around some corner or another.

	25-07-2005 15:40									#116
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Indeed. My theory on the Horde is that if they continue to be an aggressive war-like nation, they will eventually fall behind the rest of us economically....even if they win their wars.

	25-07-2005 17:22									#117
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Firstly, the Horde are not acting very nice, they DID betray Euphorica, that is clear and, despite their childish attempts to say otherwise, plain for all to see. I dislike many of their players. I would like to see them out of the game, I feel they have lowered the tone in many aspects.

Secondly, bear in mind that currently, we share the honour of having the best military with our Horde allies. We also top all the important demographics. We are strong, we need no allies, and our victory in this game is looking very promising.

The Horde are our allies right now. I would like to remove them at some point, but right now I think our best course of action is to stick to our guns and destory Euphorica - as a bonus, the Horde's problems with Babylon might enable us to take more than we would otherwise, without needing to invest more troops in the matter.

Whilst we are doing this, in the next 15 turns I think we want to acheive 2 things:

1) Switch to a better government - We need to debate Monarchy / Republic properly.
2) Build an army to march south and take the LBs out.

Then it's a case of working out who is looking the strongest - Horde or Babylon - and jump on the stronger of the pair.

	25-07-2005 18:01									#118
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think we should finish off the Euphoricans completely before we attack the Lost Boys. Don't forget that military production puts us behind in the long run. I would rather expand through peaceful means before attacking everyone around us.

	25-07-2005 18:34									#119
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

We are already the strongest economy on the planet. We can settle the gap between use and the LBs, and then claim their cities. Settling the gap and growing a force for invasion should take about the same amount of time.

The LB cities should be reasonable productive, but if not we can grow the pop and just turn them all into specialists along those flood plains.

	25-07-2005 19:13									#120
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Even a team normally in last place economically will be first (or close to it) with their Golden Age in effect.

They key to long-term success is long-term growth. We may in fact be stronger pound-for-pound, but the other teams are larger and will have a leg up on us in the future because of that. It's like Aqua said about the Horde... even if we win our wars we will eventually fall behind if we don't expand faster.