26-07-2005 01:01									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

True, Trip, though the despotic GA mitigates that to a small extent. Moonbars, if the tone of this game stays as it is for any length of time, I think Monarchy is going to be the way to go, but you're right, we do need to come to a consensus on that decision.

By the way, congratulations on the job, Trip.

	26-07-2005 01:34									#122
	Full PM-box? Change here!

[20:23] McMeadows: C3CDG
Still hoping to get peace with DR
[20:23] McMeadows: at least I have been ok'ed to discuss peace with you and able to offer some gold if we're getting anywhere
[20:24] McMeadows: the basis is still the proposal I mad earlier
[20:24] Moonbars: very unlikely, we are tied to the Horde now for better or worse
[20:25] McMeadows: seriously? I thought you were neutral?
[20:25] Moonbars: I mean we cant really back-out of attacking you
[20:26] Moonbars: there are no neutrals.. as the last few ticks have shown
[20:26] McMeadows: Why couldn't you back out?
[20:27] McMeadows: it distablizes the game a s a whole
[20:27] Moonbars: we said we'd attack together
[20:27] McMeadows: BOH is in a comfortable seat towards victory now
[20:27] McMeadows: mate,... the secret army BOH is talking about is total bullshit
[20:27] Moonbars: i know all that
[20:28] McMeadows: so why attack together?
[20:28] Moonbars: because we want a prize for all the spent resources on immortals
[20:30] McMeadows: hahaha
[20:30] McMeadows: mate... you have a perfect army and you want to be payed for it?
[20:30] McMeadows: If you would have asked to pay for damages
[20:30] McMeadows: I would have been able to comprehend
[20:31] McMeadows: but there we have to admit we have the losses on our side
[20:31] Moonbars: we've had to build military instead of settlers - if we are to catch up to the pack now we need to make some gain with those units - and your cities are it.
[20:32] McMeadows: You won't get them
[20:32] McMeadows: never
[20:32] McMeadows: we'll burn it all
[20:32] Moonbars: so will we
[20:32] McMeadows: making a deal will gain you more I promiss you
[20:33] Moonbars: how about this. You gift us Beach Boys and Nirvana at the point when our troops are in position to attack you, and we turn on the horde at that point
[20:33] Moonbars: i dont know what the rest of the team would think of this plan
[20:34] McMeadows: That seems to be too good a jump of point for you
[20:34] McMeadows: Isn't it more reasonable to have us pay you the benefits of those towns for this age?
[20:35] Moonbars: no we'd rather wipe you out ans settle it for ourselves I think.. how much gold are you talking about here?
[20:36] McMeadows: You can wipe us out indeed and have Babs and LB be wiped out as well and face BOH alone
[20:37] Moonbars: How is one team such a threat? to suggets they are all-poweful is silly.
[20:37] Moonbars: it is why you are losing.
[20:37] McMeadows: pardon me?
[20:37] Moonbars: why do you all think the Horde are such a threat?
[20:38] McMeadows: SoZ + size + opportunity
[20:38] McMeadows: atm AM and DR are their allies
[20:38] Moonbars: so it's 3v3
[20:39] McMeadows: indeed, but not very balanced. You won't make it against BOH. AM has been limped, as have you
[20:40] Moonbars: I know differently
[20:40] McMeadows: you are way smaller than they are... you just said it yourself
[20:40] McMeadows: I know, your amry is very strong
[20:40] McMeadows: atm...
[20:40] McMeadows: now that you are allied
[20:40] McMeadows: by the time that is over.. hello keshiks
[20:40] Moonbars: you will not sell me on this. I know the strengths of my Nation and of the Horde
[20:42] McMeadows: very well... mate in a way I'm done with the game... didn't want to turnplay anymore. Just promise me you won't loose
[20:42] McMeadows: lose
[20:42] Moonbars: we dont plan on
[20:43] Moonbars: you can help this by not disbanding your cities when we are in position to take them, and fighting the Horde Hard
[20:43] McMeadows: there's no gain in destroying us I think. We won't leave cities behind. Furthermore you can't keep up with BOH expanding in our lost territory
[20:43] Moonbars: why not?
[20:44] McMeadows: tehy're already IN our territory.. took over Metallica, furthermore their nearest native city is close
[20:44] McMeadows: and road connected
[20:45] Moonbars: we shall see
[20:46] McMeadows: I had hoped for a different outcome... We would have been willing to pay substantially for millitary protection
[20:48] Moonbars: how much?
[20:49] McMeadows: You already have montheism don't you?
[20:49] Moonbars: yes
[20:50] McMeadows: hmmm us working on mono isn't very helpfull
[20:50] Moonbars: nope. lol
[20:51] McMeadows: hmmmm we would like to be working on a tech as it is some insurance of not invading us
[20:52] McMeadows: although at the moment there doesn't seem to be much to be researched
[20:53] McMeadows: 1. We won't attack you with riders (I know, long way from it, I just want to have a clausule for you that reduces our aggressiveness level in your eyes).

that's just the non-economical part
[20:54] Moonbars: well you dont have any way to build riders
[20:55] McMeadows: I acknowledged that and will again...
I just state that because I know that your UU been our major consideration to attack you.. I hope to take that away
[20:56] Moonbars: ok
[20:57] McMeadows: research doesn't seem to be viable, so we just have to play milk cow for you...
[20:58] McMeadows: 10 gpt and expenses for protection
[20:59] Moonbars: more profit in taking your lands..
[21:00] McMeadows: you're too optimistic in getting the lands...
[21:02] McMeadows: how about us going 100% money making and send you 75%?
[21:03] Moonbars: but we have to fight the horde, still not worth it. I just dont see a deal..
[21:04] McMeadows: what do you have in mind?
[21:04] McMeadows: it should always be more productive to use our cities are they are now...
[21:05] McMeadows: furthermore it is unreasonable to acquire an option to jump off from on us
[21:06] Moonbars: as long as the gold kept coming there wouldn't be a problem of us doing that
[21:06] McMeadows: sigh..
[21:07] McMeadows: trhere should be a stop somewhere, otherwise we'd have to backtstab you to end it
[21:07] McMeadows: not very healthy
[21:07] McMeadows: I can't make a promise on such a deal for that reason
[21:10] Moonbars: so at some point you see yourselfs rising to be a contender again?
[21:11] McMeadows: mate, I think there should be chance for us to survive the game and have the mechanics work their way as they have had with you
[21:12] McMeadows: for the moment the mechanics allow ypu to gain a considerable amount of economic power which you can use to increase your chances
[21:12] McMeadows: if there is no gain for us we'd better be of dying
[21:14] Moonbars: so what is your offer - 75% of all your gold for the rest of this age, and we dont attack you?
[21:14] McMeadows: christ mate...
[21:14] McMeadows: the whole age??
[21:14] Moonbars: is that not what u offered?
[21:15] McMeadows: I started with 20 turns and you disagreed... Indefinate and I disagreed
[21:15] Moonbars: hehe
[21:16] McMeadows: now you make it the whole age and say it's my proposal??
[21:17] Moonbars: [20:34] McMeadows: Isn't it more reasonable to have us pay you the benefits of those towns for this age?
[21:27] McMeadows: Mate I have to pick up my girlfriend
[21:27] McMeadows: Let us have a thought about the proposal.. and think of a reasonable timeframe
[21:27] McMeadows: I hope we have something to work from...
[21:27] Moonbars: ok McMeadows. take care

[21:29] McMeadows: you too mate...

	26-07-2005 02:17									#123
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Seeing McMeadows' grovelling mollifies my utter despisal of Euphorica about as much as a bailing bucket increases the flow of the Mississippi... some, but not a whole lot. Well played, Moonbars.

	26-07-2005 02:33									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

hehe. They just dont get it..

	26-07-2005 02:41									#125
	Increase Your PM Length

Apparently not. Any deal that leaves them with even a sliver of a chance to recover and hope to maybe one day almost try to start thinking that they may possibly be able to contend for third place is far too generous on our part.

	26-07-2005 02:42									#126
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

no so well handled with my next exchange..:

Krill: OK, fellas, I think we need to reach an agreement.

ormuzd: hello

Krill: if you are all around, that is.

Moonbars: hi

Moonbars: Ormuzd that black melts into my background - can you change to a lighter colour for me?

ormuzd: what colour? I don't use colours

Krill: that is probably the problem...

Moonbars: i can cope.. just

Moonbars: with paddy I have to wear sunglasses to read him, his bright blue is all blurred without them

ormuzd: ok, let me try to search for some config

Krill: Moonbars, we wish to talk about the tech trade again. Specifically, the rep/monarchy+lux part

ormuzd: but I'm sure I can't change colours with miranda

Moonbars: never mind Ormuzd, I have changed my background (but now I can't read McMeadows, lol)

Krill: you are chatting with EU then?

Moonbars: we are in a game called Savage Swords together

Krill: we are, and they won't stop moaning about our attack against babylon.

Krill: well, about the tech.

Krill: our deal showed that we would exchange the government techs whenever the other team requested them. Well, we are requesting it.

ormuzd: so, let me start first with the deal

ormuzd: the deal was

Moonbars: that was before you betrayed us to our enemies with your spying

ormuzd: AM gives literature immidiately

Krill: done that.

ormuzd: DR gives monotheism

Krill: done that

ormuzd: this is already done

ormuzd: after this DR starts researching feudalism and gives it to AM right after it is researched

Krill: well, this you dispute, but we have been over this

ormuzd: AM starts researching theology and gives it right after it is researched

ormuzd: AM provides monarchy, DR - republic

ormuzd: the techs are not traded until the other side wants it or

ormuzd: republic is sent when theology is researched

ormuzd: monarchy is sent when feudalism is researched

ormuzd: those two conditions only if the other side doesn;t want the tech earlier

ormuzd: are we on the same page?

ormuzd: am I online?

Krill: yes, we're here...

Moonbars: almost. I did not realise you thought Feudalism was included in the deal

Moonbars: that is rather irelevant seeing as u have obtained it on your own

Krill: that is why earlier, I offered to buy Engineering of you for a decreased amount of gold, say something like 200 gold, to take into account the extra tech points/ beakers that you have gained.

Moonbars: we didn't reallt need lit, nor monarchy. we had another offer for lit we turned down. I was doing your team a favour - remember the chat? - as I wanted to be close allies. Whilst I was saying this, you had your fingers on the epsionage screeen

ormuzd: moonabrs

Moonbars: yes

ormuzd: I have written after every change of the deal who is giving what

ormuzd: and you have agreed

ormuzd: you say something different now

Moonbars: no I have not

ormuzd: we have the chat

Krill: So you dispute our deal?

Moonbars: [QUOTING myself from above] almost. I did not realise you thought Feudalism was included in the deal
[21:24] Moonbars: that is rather irelevant seeing as u have obtained it on your ow

ormuzd: and I asked krill to look at it today, so that I will be sure

ormuzd: someone is wrong and it is not me, neither krill

Moonbars: like I said - a misunderstanding, on whose part hardly matters

ormuzd: it does for me

ormuzd: we had one deal earlier

ormuzd: exchage a tech for currency

ormuzd: where we did not include monopoly rights and gold

Moonbars: I dont want to talk to a bunch of spies. speak to aqua, he still seems to want to be your partners.

	26-07-2005 03:12									#127
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

, seemd like you held it together nicely until right at the end there. I tried to find it, but with no luck... what was AM's response to our espionage accusation?

	26-07-2005 03:15									#128
	Put an end to popups!

they have not responded as far as I can tell, unless they have spoken to aqua over MSN.

	26-07-2005 03:20									#129
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

No wonder I didn't have any luck finding it. With that in mind, your conduct in the chat makes perfect sense, and I'd keep pressing the issue until we at least get an admission of guilt. From that point, we can see if we can angle them into some concessions over it. Once they cop to it, no point in beating them over the head with it, but until they do, keep it up.

	26-07-2005 07:31									#130
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well they've admitted they gave the screenie, but they maintain it was after Moonbars already advised them that we had reached a peace deal with the Horde. This may or may not be true, however my point was that regardless of any peace deal, armed with this precise information about the strength of our defences at Antioch the Horde could have made an informed decision to attack the city.

I stressed to Krill and ormuzd that our main weapon against the Horde and the reason they delayed in attacking us for so long was their fear of the unknown......unknown strength of our defences and their unknown ability to break through these defences without suffering a devastating blow to their main army. And I pointed out that providing the screenie dissolved that "x-factor" in one fell swoop.

Their response was that they did not wish to give the screenie, and delayed as much as they could until they knew we were at peace, however they had previously committed to giving it to Euphorica. They maintain that by giving it to Euphorica they were satisfied it would not fall into Horde hands because their relationship had soured by then....a contention that is rather questionable, given what McMeadows would do to avoid attack (see above )

Bottom line is, they cannot see the point. I don't believe they have any bad intentions towards us (compared to some others), yet they clearly haven't grasped the subtleties involved in this issue. They have taken the line that they didn't mean to cause any harm and therefore they didn't cause harm.....sticking their heads in the sand I believe.

I suggest I write them an email setting all this out plainly and asking for a formal apology, for until we can put this issue to rest it is clearly going to be difficult to keep the relationship going. Moonbars for one is very pissed with them about it, as you can see. However, we need to be pragmatic - we need to trade with someone and these guys are the least treacherous and probably the only civ who will be able to keep up with us.

Last edited by Aqualung71 on 26-07-2005 at 07:37

	26-07-2005 07:34									#131
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As far as the chat with McMeadows goes, I'm a bit surprised Moonbars actually admitted that we are in league with the Horde and will attack them regardless. I have been trying to string McMeadows and Snoopy along in chats, not committing either way, since I want our troops to turn up on their borders unexpected.

Similarly, I don't want the other nations of the world to believe we are in bed with the Horde, for then AM may forget their differences with Babylon and LB and we may find ourselves facing 4 enemies, with only the Horde as our ally......not a very pleasant thought in my opinion

	26-07-2005 08:18									#132
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One comment of Moonbars' in his chat with McMeadows mirrored my own devious thinking.....agree not to attack Euphorica if they gift us Nirvana and Beach Boys. As McMeadows clearly stated, they will not allow us to take their cities. This means we have to produce extra Settlers, which takes time and costs pop points.

Of course, this is effectively a backstab to the Horde, and I'm not sure I want to risk that at this point with their army so close to us.....it also gives euphorica a slim chance of regaining strength.

Any opinions?

	26-07-2005 08:25									#133
	Put an end to popups!

As an aside, please make sure you all keep abreast of the goings-on in the public threads. I post there regularly, mainly to maintain our image of an independent thinking nation, and also to laugh at the others

So let's make sure when we chat to other teams in private, we maintain the same message. We don't want them to give us ammunition later ("but you said....") with which to attack us - the turmoil in the public threads is testament to this tendency!

For reference to my stated public position about the Desolation Row, please have a look at this thread I started today

	26-07-2005 08:41									#134
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The chat logs were interesting but a bit worrisome. I do not want to accept anything from Euphorica in exchange for breaking our agreement with the Horde or turning on the Horde. I would like to keep my honour in this game. Not only that, breaking our word in this game could reduce our individual credibility in other games. I want to be known as an honest player.
Let's keep it simple; wipe out Euphorica and then deal with others later.

	26-07-2005 08:46									#135
	Got spare money?

Agreed brother, but I want 2 of their cities and they won't let us have them!

That is why I moved 2 Horsemen into the stack.....just in case they don't notice and we can swoop in a turn early.

	26-07-2005 08:59									#136
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Bearing in mind the line AM is taking on the screenshot, I think you're right on the formal apology. Bleh, I was hoping we could squeeze a little something more out of them over it. Still, it puts us in a bit of a catbird's seat with respect to direct dealings with AM.

On the McMeadows chat, it looked to me like Moonbars put out an offer he knew they couldn't accept. I'm with Masuro on the actual acceptance of an offer, but don't know that it will ever be an issue as long as what Moonbars proposed remains our kindest offer.

For the record, I'd rather see three or more Euphorican cities burned by their own hand before our advancing troops than two handed over to us for peace, but I know that's just my loathing of that despicable, cowardly bunch speaking.

	26-07-2005 09:11									#137
	Inflate your Upload Space

I agree. Let them burn their own cities. Building settlers is cheaper than building the military units needed to take cities. They'll be doing us a favour.

	26-07-2005 09:32									#138
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I doubt we'd need many military units to take their cities

	26-07-2005 14:34									#139
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 As far as the chat with McMeadows goes, I'm a bit surprised Moonbars actually admitted that we are in league with the Horde and will attack them regardless.

We are already at war with Euphorica - they are our enemies.. I didn't say we were in league with them, just that we are tied to them to attack EUphorica.

	26-07-2005 14:37									#140
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi On the McMeadows chat, it looked to me like Moonbars put out an offer he knew they couldn't accept.

Correct. you ask from something they'll reject, and in their counter offer you get close to the max they are prepared to offer.. I dont want to break our word with the Horde either, but neither do I enjoy being allied with them, they are not very trustworthy..

	05-08-2005 05:56									#141
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

PLATO: hello

Moonbars: hi

PLATO: How go things in the mighty DR?

Moonbars: dunno,, not seen a save for a while!

Moonbars: babylon slackers

PLATO: haha indeed!

PLATO: our people grow old waiting on them!

PLATO: It looks, from the battle reports, that they may be on the way out

PLATO: I just hope that there is something left by the time we can get there!

PLATO: Have you heard from any of them?

Moonbars: was speaking to one of them, cant remember who, a while ago

PLATO: Are they begging for peace with you to?

Moonbars: not begging, no.

PLATO: haha...I guess begging may be the wrong word. It sure does seem that they are desperate though

PLATO: Imagine them thinking we would turn on you after the way they back stabbed us! ha! I will be glad to see them go

PLATO: Anyway, The real reason I am bugging you right now is not Babylon. The Khan has asked me to discuss border arrangements with you on Euphorica.

PLATO: Any ideas?

Moonbars: we want the land between where our stack is now and beach boys

Moonbars: everything to the east of that diagonal

PLATO: from the forest that you are in south or is it southwest of Nirvana?

Moonbars: from Nirvana to beachboys

PLATO: I don't have a map handy, but that makes the line east of Abba doesn't it?

Moonbars: yes

PLATO: So it seems that the only cities you would gain (assuming any are left!) are Nirvana and Beach Boys?

Moonbars: there will be no cities to capture

PLATO: I fear you are correct.

PLATO: The proposal sounds reasonable on the surface. Let me open my save when I get home and discuss it with Paddy and the group. Do you know when you will be online over the next couple of days?

Moonbars: if you have 200 hits and 374 soak, the N Class warship are going to die first round. I would attack.. but if you can find any extra fodder all the better

Moonbars: wrong window..

PLATO: haha....that confused me!

PLATO: np

PLATO: So, do you know when you will be available for the next couple of days?

Moonbars: the proposal is the war plan we agreed with Paddy. It seems correct that having faught for the land, we own it afterwards

Moonbars: i'll be online after 11pm GMT until 1 or 2 am tomorrow, and around on and off at weekend

PLATO: Ahh...I didn't know you had spoken to Paddy on this. If that was the agreement, then of course it will be fine.

Moonbars: We made a war plan of what cities we'd attack

Moonbars: we didnt discuss who would own the land afterwards

PLATO: Well, I am not privvy to all the war plans...just the diplo initiatives

PLATO: Paddy had asked me to work with you on boarder agreement.

PLATO: I am glad that we are allies now. You guys seem to be a lot easier to work with than a lot of folks in this game

Moonbars: we may not want a literal straight line - need to map out city sites on both sides

PLATO: yes, I agree. We don't want to culturally screw each other!

PLATO: I will work on a couple of map proposals to try and have ready by the weekend. Do you have a screenshot you prefer to work with?

Moonbars: the one paddy sent us would work

PLATO: Okay then. I will work with that one.

PLATO: I'll be back in touch soon

Moonbars: ok

PLATO: bye for now

Moonbars: later Plato

	05-08-2005 06:37									#142
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

While clearly Euphorican territory is much closer to us than it is to the BOH core, there's not much point in arguing with them about the split of lands. We don't have any use in the medium term for lands further west of Nirvana/Beach Boys as per Moonbars' proposal to Plato, and in any case their cities in the area will be hopelessly corrupt and we will eventually take them for ourselves by force.

	05-08-2005 14:45									#143
	Remove this text

agreed, that was my thinking.. I'll post any followups to this in it's own thread.

	08-08-2005 13:04									#144
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Referring back to the unfinished argument we had with AM about the Monarchy-Republic trade......clearly it's now a moot point since we got Monarchy from Babylon in the peace deal.

I propose we don't trade Republic to anyone.....not that anyone seems likely to want to use it anyway

	08-08-2005 13:57									#145
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the spy scandal gives us a perfect get-out-of-trade-free card..

	09-08-2005 11:35									#146
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Indeed. My theory on the Horde is that if they continue to be an aggressive war-like nation, they will eventually fall behind the rest of us economically....even if they win their wars.

And to back up this statement......last night Paddy told me they will take 25-27 turns until Chivalry is completed, largely because their army is too large (though I doubt support costs are hurting much yet), which means they have invested too many shields in building units rather than infrastructure with which to grow and develop their cities.

They will either dig themselves into a huge hole economically by continuing to build units, or their military supremacy will wane due to a change in build policy to concentrate on building their economy.

	10-08-2005 02:45									#147
	Put an end to popups!

Perhaps, but I'd expect the Horde to pursue Atilla's domestic strategy: solve domestic problems with foreign campaigns.

	18-08-2005 16:45									#148
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Latest correspondence from Babylon:

Team Babylon wishes to thank Desolation Row for helping to bring about
a
final and lasting peace between the two of us. As we have stated
before, we are very sorry that we had this last war, come between us.

As we currently have problems at home, we can't make any future deals,
for further technologies, but please don't count us totally out of the
game. We have been working on deals, with AM, to allow us to remain
alive, as partners with them. Granted, we are not totally happy with
this (very close democratic poll, that was), but we can deal with is,
as
it's better than oblivion....

Anyways, AM isn't the problem, but BoH will ultimately will be the
major
one to watch out for. We have received (IMHO, smoke screen) threats
from them, with demands. We know that their threats are that, threats,
as the units that they claim to be headed our way (20 something Units)
haven't even appeared on our horizen (and we still have some scouting
capability, in that direction). Perhaps, this is disinformation,
directed at our contacts, with other teams (like you) and they are only
working on getting the right positioning and timing, before they strike
at their next victim.

Again, We ask you to make peace with Euphorica, they won't be a threat
to you, no matter what and work on making sure that BoH's ambitions are
properly checked.

Thank you for your time,

E_T

I must admit, I am somewhat swayed by their words

	18-08-2005 16:54									#149
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

as am I

if we do make peace with Euphorica, we need to contact them BEFORE they play this turn, as they may disband Beach Boys..

lots to discuss. all who can get on MSN..

	18-08-2005 17:01									#150
	Suffering from ads?

I am still for destroying Euphorica. Once they are gone we can build our defences and worry about the Horde at that time.