01-03-2005 00:14									#1
	The democratic revolution marches on... Full PM-box? Change here!

In the sweep of history, I don't think there has been such a string of democratic revolutions. During the Cold War, democracy felt to me more like a status quo ideology, but the two decades since that time have proven that democracy -- an ideology over two centuries old -- surpisingly has a pretty sharp edge.

The US has supported most of the recent revolutions with only very modest amounts of money: About $20 million apiece. This demonstrates to me that if you are spending a lot of money supporting these revolutions, you probably aren't getting your money's worth. You also have extreme odd couples like Bush and Soros and quite interesting side stories.

Some countries have proven very resistant. Iran costs some $40 million per annum, but we don't know when or if it will topple. If you want to include Iraq as a democratic revolution, then that costs some $50 billion + per annum. You might want to include Lebanon as a package deal with Iraq.

Next up on the hit parade, Asia and the Middle East...

Lebanon
Kyrgyzstan
Uzbekistan?
Moldova?
Kazakhstan?

Last edited by DanS on 01-03-2005 at 01:09

	01-03-2005 00:16									#2
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forced democracy

voluntary democracy

	01-03-2005 00:17									#3
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It has nothing to do with the US. More to do with access to mass media.

Besides, the western "democracies" aren't really, anymore.

	01-03-2005 00:17									#4
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You sound as if that is pure business.....

	01-03-2005 00:18									#5
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yes, what about the cost of life in attaining democracy?

no big a deal if that's what the people want, but against their will?

	01-03-2005 00:18									#6
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What democratic revolutions?

	01-03-2005 00:18									#7
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There's a what-now going on? Eh?

If you want an actual string of democratic revolutions, try 1848.

	01-03-2005 00:18									#8
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I'm thinking of investing in a revolution myself, but am unsure of the dividends.

	01-03-2005 00:20									#9
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I'm thinking of investing in a revolution myself, but am unsure of the dividends.

do you own stock in Haliburton? If so, then

	01-03-2005 00:22									#10
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro You sound as if that is pure business.....

Well, I wouldn't describe it quite as "pure business", in that you can't really "buy" these revolutions. Soros spent a fortune trying to bring down Bush and it had little to no impact, for instance. However, as stated, a modest sum of money is helping to even the playing field with undemocratic governments.

	01-03-2005 00:22									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It has nothing to do with the US. More to do with access to mass media. Besides, the western "democracies" aren't really, anymore.

"Capitalist Democracy" is an oxymoron. If the workplace isn't democratic, democracy is a joke.

Corporate Republics:

	01-03-2005 00:35									#12
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Let's see...

Elections in Afghanistan
Elections in Iraq
Libya gives up WMD's
Lebanon demonstrating in the street for democracy
Egypt Changing its constitution to be more democratic
Elections in Palestine.

Yep...Bush and his policies are idiotic.

	01-03-2005 00:38									#13
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Let's see... Elections in Afghanistan Elections in Iraq Libya gives up WMD's Lebanon demonstrating in the street for democracy Egypt Changing its constitution to be more democratic Elections in Palestine. Yep...Bush and his policies are idiotic.

do all the dead people on both sides mean nothing to you?

	01-03-2005 00:41									#14
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Ukraine
Georgia

	01-03-2005 00:45									#15
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quote: Elections in Afghanistan

"Show" elections. The Afghan government does not control the country.

quote: Elections in Iraq

Have made no difference, just like the Vietnamese "elections" did.

quote: Libya gives up WMD's

Because Gaddafi wanted something in return.

quote: Lebanon demonstrating in the street for democracy

Due to an assassination by God knows whom.

quote: Egypt Changing its constitution to be more democratic.

Long time coming, but perhaps a fig leaf according to reports.

quote: Elections in Palestine.

Pretty much worthless given the circumstances.

quote: Yep...Bush and his policies are idiotic.

Plainly so.

	01-03-2005 00:46									#16
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quote: If you want an actual string of democratic revolutions, try 1848.

I think the string of democratic revolutions since Poland kicked this all off has been greater than 1848.

	01-03-2005 00:48									#17
	Were the neo-cons right? Increase Your PM Length

Post 9/11 the neo-cons in the Bush Administration kept pushing the idea that a democratic Iraq would act as an agent of change in the largely dictatorial middle east. I'm not sure I would credit Iraq's new democracy for it but there have been recent signs of greater democracy and freedom in the Arab world. Iraq held it's first free election since the 1950's, Saudi Arabia held its first elections ever (though only for city level officials), the Palestinian people actually held their first competitive election which wasn't rigged by Yasser Arafat's cronies, Egypt has announced they will end to 24 year old "state of emergency" which gave Mubarrak dictatorial powers plus it will now be legal for other candidates to run for office, finally the Syrian installed government in Lebanon is resigning with free election promised this summer. Could things finally be changing for the better in the Arab world?

It's pretty clear that none of these changes would be happening if Bush & Blair hadn't decided to make greater freedom in the Middle East a high priority. Also they've kept constant pressure on these regimes in order to force them to make positive changes. Heck, they even got Libya's Kadafi to agree to end support of terrorism and pay restitution to the families of Pan-Am flight 103 which blew up over Lockerby, Scotland. So the question is this a case of the neo-cons getting the right policy? Will greater democracy in the Middle East lead to moderate governments (like as happened in Palestine and Iraq) or will it lead to Iranian style Theocracies being brought to power? Do you believe democratically elected governments will be less repressive on their people then the current dictatorships and will democratically elected governments make pro-market reforms to help get the stagnate economies of the Arab world growing again.

Lastly, I’d like to hear if people think these reforms will help alleviate some of the anger and envy the Arab world feels towards the outside world. It’s not inconceivable that greater freedoms at home might lead fewer young Arab men to feel like Jihad is the answer to all of life’s problems. What’s your take on this?

	01-03-2005 00:48									#18
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too soon to say.

	01-03-2005 00:55									#19
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Pakistan
Uzbekistan
Russia
Turkmenistan
Tajikistan

Democracy promotion

quote: Egypt Changing its constitution to be more democratic.

Mubarak puts up nominal opposition after he gets to screen the candidates, yay.

quote: Libya gives up WMD's

Not the same thing as democracy. In fact, they're off our **** list, so democracy is less likely than before.

quote: Elections in Palestine.

Are you saying that Bush assassinated Arafat? How exactly is this Bush's success? Bush can have the elections in Palestine if he also takes the blame for the destruction of the reformists in Iran.

quote: "Show" elections. The Afghan government does not control the country.

Interestingly enough, parliamentary elections were just pushed back. It's still a Presidential dictatorship.

quote: Elections in Iraq

Where we still don't know who the candidates exactly are, a full month after the election. Anonymous democracy.

	01-03-2005 00:57									#20
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark too soon to say.

	01-03-2005 00:58									#21
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Phhhtttt!

	01-03-2005 01:07									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The idea of testing the waters for democratic reform in Saudi Arabia preceded the invasion of Iraq. You might as well credit Osama Bin Laden. The Saudi government is genuinely afraid of al-Quaida, andf are hoping to steal some of Osama's wind by pernitting some democratic reforms. The US government has also been advocating democratic reform for quite some time also. The Saudi's are going about it very cautiously though as they don't want to wind up like the Shah of Iran.

The recent progress in Palestine I think you can attribute to the passing of Yassir Arafat. Everything just seemed to begin to sanp in place after his ffuneral didn't it? Evidently he's done more for the Palestinian psople in death than in life.

	01-03-2005 01:08									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident do all the dead people on both sides mean nothing to you?

Not as much as all the lives saved and all the free people.

You know, some people believe that freeedom is worth dying for...I know our forefathers did.

	01-03-2005 01:10									#25
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I don't care if they were right or not or who gets the credit, I just hope the events stay on course. In the end the peace and democracy will rest on the people of the Arab countries. It's they who will have to make it work and seize on the opportunity that they now have regardless of where it came from

	01-03-2005 01:11									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Ukraine

How was Ukraine a democratic revolution?

	01-03-2005 01:11									#27
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Few are losing their lives in most of these revolutions.

	01-03-2005 01:12									#29
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Amazing how "coincidental" all these events are to Bush/Blair policies.

The left will use any excuse to keep from admitting that "Peace through strength" works and appeasement never does.

	01-03-2005 01:12									#30
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quote: How was Ukraine a democratic revolution?

Overturning a fixed election. What's your definition of a democratic revolution?