16-03-2005 22:15									#31
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I ended the war, and didnt manage to vassalize Nav - it didnt show up even with a 100 victory score - do they need to be down to one province for force vassal? Or maybe i misinterpreted the screen. In any case I took Bearn, and all the ducats Navarre had left. Will go for the rest of Navarre later, I suppose. Stability is up to 2, so ive ended investment in stab, i have over 270 ducats (even after sending out one more batch of settlers to the Canaries) so im keeping monthly income close to zero and putting everything into infra and trade. would work on diplomacy to improve lowered relations, but king is low on diplo due to event. Ive kept the army but reduced mtnce to min - ive got about 10k cav and 20k inf, well below my support limit. Having taken Bearn France now has CB on me, so i need to be careful.

I dont yet have money for a FAA - should that be my goal? I suppose a shift in the DP sliders could be by next move - perhaps toward centralization?

	16-03-2005 23:08									#32
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If they already were a vassal of someone, you can't vassalize them I'm afraid. The one province rule only applies to annexation btw.

As for the slider move, check out this sticky. In the FAQ section over at Paradox, you can find an answer on quite a few questions btw.

	17-03-2005 03:24									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai If they already were a vassal of someone, you can't vassalize them I'm afraid. The one province rule only applies to annexation btw. As for the slider move, check out this sticky. In the FAQ section over at Paradox, you can find an answer on quite a few questions btw.

Navarre is really a pain then. I wonder if releasing Bearn as a vassal would be a good idea? Would it drop the French CB?

Ive lurked at the Paradox forums, and have just registered there. Id like to post here for a while though - my questions arent that challenging, I think, and i find this place easier to navigate.

	17-03-2005 12:46									#34
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Most of the people here also go to the Paradox site so you can get everything you need to know right here without having to ask strangers.

	17-03-2005 14:15									#35
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Navarre is really a pain then. I wonder if releasing Bearn as a vassal would be a good idea? Would it drop the French CB?

In order, probably and yes it would.
However, a newly created Baern likely won't survive on it's own for very long - Either France, Aragon or Navarra could probably swallow it quite easily as it won't be able to build armies immediately.
Your best bet would probably be to invite it into your alliance if you do so ...
Having Baern as a part of Castille will increase your tech/stability costs disproportionately to its size as it has Basque culture rather than Iberian (your only native culture).
This reduces it's tax value (-20%) too and I don't think it's that high to begin with.
Revolt risk will similarly be higher here for the duration of the game due to the off-culture.

France would no longer have a CB on you but then the French will probably be far more concerned with England, Burgundy and the French minors for some time to come as far as a DoW against you goes. Particularly over a piece of territory so peripheral to their own empire.
Your relations will suffer in the meantime of course.

	18-03-2005 03:38									#36
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yeah for auto save! it saved in 1453, just a few game months before EU2 crashed to desktop - right in the middle of a war (im not sure exactly where i was at the save, but i think i got most of the important stuff by then)

Scotland joined the alliance with me and Port. Scotland then went to war with England, and called for help, which i gladly extended, so I now could go after Navarra without a big stab hit. Annexed Navarra, took Gascony from the english, won a naval battle, and sent an army into Oporto to take on an English invasion of Portugal - one more good blow should finish off the English army and give a more substantial peace - i want ducats from them, not territory at this stage. After thats done I'll release Bearn as vassal and try to lower BB (now 11). Need to get peace quickly, as Alvaro just died.

Then it crashed - but i think the save was well into the war, and i wouldnt mind redoing that.

Last edited by lord of the mark on 26-03-2005 at 01:11

	18-03-2005 03:40									#37
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Autosave is your friend.

	21-03-2005 22:15									#38
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well that worked, and the war ended.


Then a few years later a bunch of things happened relatively fast - id left the PC to go do other things, assuming the popups would pause it whenever something important happened - somehow when i was cleaning up popups, or something, i disavowed alliance with vassal Bearn when Aragon attacked, and this hurt stab, and I think BB.

Just when im getting things back under control, Aragon attacks ME, for reasons that arent quite clear - just my BB are up, and im nearby, AFAICT. A war I really dont want. Took a while to beat them sufficiently to get a white peace (gad these sieges go on and on) didnt help when there ally Genoa sent over a large army.

BTW, Enrique IV is a lousy king, ISTM.

Finally at peace again. Was up to Stab 2, and focusing on infrastructure research, and ducats to build a FAA - then i get a plague, Stab back to 1. There seem to be plenty of stab lowering events, and when stab goes to zero or less its a pain - so id like try to keep it at 2. (maybe then increase centralization) BTW, does a monarchical succession automatically lower stab?

	21-03-2005 22:54									#39
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark BTW, does a monarchical succession automatically lower stab?

No.

	22-03-2005 01:49									#40
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Many monrachs are more skillful and so your stability, technology, and tax income actualy go way up.

	22-03-2005 16:15									#41
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That's right, but the change itself does not alter the stab or anything.

	24-03-2005 03:05									#42
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ok, so i wish i knew why my relations with Aragon are so poor. theyre like -200 and theyve attacked me twice. Is it cause Id annexed Navarra? last time they attacked Nav was my vassal. Or just cause theyre aggressive and im the only one in the way - other than france which they dont seem to want to take on.

now its like early 1470's, and ive got the 5 year truce, but im afraid these idiots will attack again in time to mess up the spanish wedding events. Grrrrrr!

	24-03-2005 19:57									#43
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If you go to war with a country then your relations with them fall apart. One war and you'll be near -200.

	25-03-2005 22:17									#44
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Ok - its 1477 or so. I got the two Viva Espana events - first became Spain, and then got Aragon as vassal. I havent checked the ruler on Aragon - I presume that should be Ferdinand now?

I finished FAA in Castile/Madrid. Isabel's skills help with stab, civ research, and diplo. Stab is up to 3 - i will move another step to centralization, but cant do that till 1483. Should finish next level of Infra in 1480, then can build refineries - will try to do so in Andalusia and Canaries. But im short cash, only 300 or so, and inflation is growing. Is it worth it investing in trade - i manage to place some merchants and get some gold from that, but i have no COT and dont expect one for some time.

Austria has inherited Burgundy. Strategic threats are OE and France. OE has big chunk of balkans, and 2 provs in Italy (Tuscany and one next to it, I think) Aragon, Papal, Venice, Genoa at war with OE. I sent an army to Genoa (with whom I have MA) to move into OE provs - turns out they are held by Papal army - should have looked more closely at the flags. So Im now thinking i WONT DOW OE, and will stay at peace.

France by now has almost all their historic provs, except for a half dozen or more still held by England. And is starting to push into Germany - is currently at peace with Genoa - are they playing more cautiously, now that Austria holds their eastern flank?

Im reluctant to move toward war with France now, even by guarentees to her neighbors (EG Genoa) My Imp2 instincts would be to reach out diplomatically to Austria or England, but thats costly, they probably wont ally anyway, and im not sure the best way to do that.

My BBs are steadily going down.

Not sure what else to do in next three years while waiting for infra to go up.

	26-03-2005 00:00									#45
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Trade is worth investing in. The higher your trade level, the more income you get from trade and your merchants are less likely to get competed away - so you spend less money replacing those. It's also imperative that you at least have level 3 when COTs start to show up in the colonies, as the European nations are very reluctant to trade in non-European COTs, so those are easy to monopolize.

BTW, I believe Spain gets a COT in Andalusia in 1500 by event.

Austria will be the much better ally than England... Austria could help you versus OE or France, and they'll stay Catholic, and they won't get in your way during colonization (for the most part).

	28-03-2005 09:35									#46
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Your goals should be to reduce costs and lower taxation because if you don't inflation will kill you. Also rush ahead in infastructure as that's where the money making inprovements come from plus your only way (short of a few lucky events) to lower inflation is by researching governors.

Just lay low, invest in improving relations with Aragon so you can annex them, build up your navy with warships so you can explore the New World with your explorers then use the gold & manpower gained in NEw Spain to crush your enemies in Europe. The CoT in Andalusia will help too.

	28-03-2005 09:53									#47
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I'd go for a Spain, Austria, Portugal alliance with an eye towards vassalizing and annexing Portugal after it's done colonizing Brazil and a bit of the African coast. That's a great way to double the size of your empire as Spain.

	28-03-2005 23:27									#48
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Aragon went was at war with Hungary and Gelre, and invited me in - I joined to keep Aragon happy - would turning them down have hurt relations? ( i can take a stab hit, with FAA and Isabel my stab comes back real fast)

Looked reasonable, as Hungary was also fighting an alliance of Italians led by Venice. I sent an army to Piedmont (an Aragon prov) and got MA through Austria. Sieged Oldenburg, won 2 field battles. Venice and pals make peace, leaving me in the lurch. My army is hit hard - about 7000 inf killed by the Hungarians, cav and leader head back to Piedmont and Spain. I won some defensive battles, and managed to eke out a peace getting 70 gold from the Gel and Hung.

I think im going to try to stay at peace in Europe for some time.

Meanwhile in the New world, i have colonies in Bermuda, Roanoke, and Havana. Keep trying for a TP in Catawba(? - west of roanoke) Getting the hang of the colonization success model.

Should i continue to avoid the Cherokee(or is it the Creek)? Fight them? Try to Diplo vassalize them?

Its about 1507. Columbus died, but ive still got 2 explorers and a conq.

I'm about 4 years from trade level 3 - which will give me ability to get monopolies - getting a mono on Seville will be very helpful, then might push some more merchants at Lisbon and Genoa. At that point will refocus on Infra, I suppose.

I think in terms of colonies at this point i want TPs to block off my area, but for the rest focus on building up existing colonies till i get a more substantial cash flow - no?

Last edited by lord of the mark on 28-03-2005 at 23:55

	29-03-2005 04:51									#49
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It sounds like the area that you've explored so far under your part of the world under the Treaty of Tordesillas (Carribean, Central Amercia, Southern Coast of NA). That means if a Catholic state (i.e. any European state atm) builds colonies on this territory, you can walk into it and take it without declaring war. So, I'd focus on colonies.

As for colonization, the key is not to kill natives unless absolutely necessary. Because once a city is formed, the native population is added to the total population (as Catholic Iberians). So if I have some cash to spare, I avoid moving armies into colonies. Also, poor provinces reduce your total tech (tech advancement is inversely proportional to the number of provinces), so I'd avoid provinces with base tax value less than three.

The Creek and Cherokee pose little threat, and aren't particularly valuable, so I'd conqer them only if you're worried about other states getting a toehold in NA. You can't diplo-vassalize them because they're not Catholic.

	29-03-2005 23:20									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'd go for a Spain, Austria, Portugal alliance with an eye towards vassalizing and annexing Portugal after it's done colonizing Brazil and a bit of the African coast. That's a great way to double the size of your empire as Spain.

Ive seen hints to annex Port, then release them to take advantage of the TOT event, etc. Sounds a little "gamey" to me. For now I'll let Portugal be - more the way i want to RP Spain. Maybe someday when i seriously go for WC.

	29-03-2005 23:27									#51
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ramo

quote: It sounds like the area that you've explored so far under your part of the world under the Treaty of Tordesillas (Carribean, Central Amercia, Southern Coast of NA). That means if a Catholic state (i.e. any European state atm) builds colonies on this territory, you can walk into it and take it without declaring war. So, I'd focus on colonies.

England is to my north - a TP in connecticut, and something in Chesapeake, I think. They'll end up Protestant - im not sure how much time I have between TOT and Reformation events.

quote: As for colonization, the key is not to kill natives unless absolutely necessary. Because once a city is formed, the native population is added to the total population (as Catholic Iberians). So if I have some cash to spare, I avoid moving armies into colonies.

unfortunately im not heavy on cash at the moment. So the improved colonoization success chance from having a conq in the prov really helps, although it does tend to lead to fighting with natives id rather keep for pop purposes. Maybe I should focus more on extra settlers at my existing colonies? Anyway after 1511 when trade goes to level 3 i should have more cash.

quote: Also, poor provinces reduce your total tech (tech advancement is inversely proportional to the number of provinces), so I'd avoid provinces with base tax value less than three.

Well cherry picking provs seems a tad gamey to me - but this could be an argument for TP's in between the richer provs.

quote: The Creek and Cherokee pose little threat, and aren't particularly valuable, so I'd conqer them only if you're worried about other states getting a toehold in NA. You can't diplo-vassalize them because they're not Catholic.

thanks. Should i do anything with them diplomatically?

	29-03-2005 23:45									#52
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Well cherry picking provs seems a tad gamey to me - but this could be an argument for TP's in between the richer provs.

I agree, I tend to not take the richness too much into consideration, but rather try a middle way.

quote: quote: The Creek and Cherokee pose little threat, and aren't particularly valuable, so I'd conqer them only if you're worried about other states getting a toehold in NA. You can't diplo-vassalize them because they're not Catholic. thanks. Should i do anything with them diplomatically?

I'd annex them, they are of no good for you alive.

	30-03-2005 08:45									#53
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As Spain your goal is to attack and speed anex all the pegan tribes of the New World you can then covert them as both their culture and religion will change to your own. Say hello to big money and manpower gains.

	30-03-2005 23:49									#54
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ok 2 for annexing, 1 for leaving them alone.

I suppose the key is converting - justing taking them and leaving them pagan/native makes my stab and research costs higher - to really benefit i need to do the conversion. OTOH once converted they will pay nicely, and from an RP perspective it makes sense that Spain should be going out and spreading the "true faith" (and ive sort of fallen into playing Spain as hard assed Catholic mofo's - i took the toss 'em all choice for the muslims (not a personal thing, just wanted to simplify micromanagement) and heavy Narrowminded - so it would be rather inconsistent to just leave the natives alone, even it made sense strategy wise (which it apparently does not) still missionizing is costly, so I may wait till 1511 and my advance in trade level - its 1508 now.

	02-04-2005 12:26									#55
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I played the first 20 years of a Spain game today and I forgot how easy it is to play them. From 1419-1490 I concentrated on killing Granada, vassalizing (by force) Portugal, Vassalizing (via event) Aragon, and invading North Africa. The main goal in North Africa was to take out Morrocco & Fez the colonize down the inland corridor so I could capture the two gold proviences in Mali along with the various pagan states in south western Africa before they converted Muslim via event. By the time Columbus arrived in 1490 I had a small fleet and army waiting for him so I could attack the Maya and the Aztecs (more gold, YAY!) plus I had converted pagan three proviences in southwest Africa including the CoT in Ivoria. All of the pagans in that part of Africa are annexed.

I then went after the Native Americans in a huge way and spent most of the rest of my time turbo annexing them. Converting, exploring, and colonizing is the goal. 1620 and I'm so far ahead of everyone else it isn't funny. I've ignored Europe other then a few wars in the low countries and taking a few proviences in Germany & France. I got a few Italian proviences via event. I'm still in an Alliance with Austria and a Catholic Byzantium which has survived due to my timely intervention. I've also released a small Kingdom of Jerusalem as a vassal. Navara has been annex and Portugal is still a vassal though I plan on annexing them soon.

	04-04-2005 20:43									#56
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Other newbie here.

I have begun my first games of EU2, after completing the tutorial.

I insist playing as the Songhai during the Great Campaign. The Songhai have a bunch of good things for them: gold supplies, few and peaceful neighbours that are easily crushed, quite some population.

But I have much trouble with two things:
The first big problem is inflation. At the beginning of the game, nearly all of my money comes from the gold mines, which makes for a vicious inflation that simply won't go away. I begin with about .60% inflation per year only because of gold, and nowadays (200 years into the game, with pretty much all of Western Africa under my domination), I still have .40% inflation.
Because of this inflation, everything is viciously expansive (a fine arts academy costs more than 2000 gold), and I have to wait plenty of years in order to gather the funds to build one.
I have promoted tax collectors everywhere, and I always strive to have a +3 stability. How can I further improve my economy so that my two Gold Mines eventually become a negligible source of income?
Bettering my economy is especially important because I find tech viciously expansive: it costs 40,000 for me to reach infrastructure #3, which is way too much (about 1000 months if I dedicate my whole budget to it). I'd need to grow my economy tenfold for good effect. But how can I do it?

The second problem is stability: At one point, I eventually unite all of West Africa (Songhai + Mali + the two small coastal States: Ashanti and Dahomey). It's all nice and good, especially after I convert everybody to Sunni Islam. But stability becomes viciously expansive to improve. That wouldn't be too much of a problem if there wasn't the frequent random event that destroys it.
Now, my government is not very good for stability (very free citizens that are a bit innovative), but the main problem comes from random events. What can I do to avoid peasant revolts and nobility being a bore?

BTW, I believe the tech costs are insanely higher for my Songhai than for a European country. Is it true or is it just an impression?

	04-04-2005 21:10									#57
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Originally posted by Spiffor

quote: Other newbie here.

Welcome aboard

quote: I have begun my first games of EU2, after completing the tutorial. I insist playing as the Songhai during the Great Campaign. The Songhai have a bunch of good things for them: gold supplies, few and peaceful neighbours that are easily crushed, quite some population. But I have much trouble with two things: The first big problem is inflation. At the beginning of the game, nearly all of my money comes from the gold mines, which makes for a vicious inflation that simply won't go away. I begin with about .60% inflation per year only because of gold, and nowadays (200 years into the game, with pretty much all of Western Africa under my domination), I still have .40% inflation. Because of this inflation, everything is viciously expansive (a fine arts academy costs more than 2000 gold), and I have to wait plenty of years in order to gather the funds to build one.

The standard response is put less gold into treas, more into infra, get to level where you get governors, and build them to control inflation. Not sure if that works for Songhai

quote: I have promoted tax collectors everywhere, and I always strive to have a +3 stability. How can I further improve my economy so that my two Gold Mines eventually become a negligible source of income? Bettering my economy is especially important because I find tech viciously expansive: it costs 40,000 for me to reach infrastructure #3, which is way too much (about 1000 months if I dedicate my whole budget to it). I'd need to grow my economy tenfold for good effect. But how can I do it? The second problem is stability: At one point, I eventually unite all of West Africa (Songhai + Mali + the two small coastal States: Ashanti and Dahomey). It's all nice and good, especially after I convert everybody to Sunni Islam. But stability becomes viciously expansive to improve. That wouldn't be too much of a problem if there wasn't the frequent random event that destroys it. Now, my government is not very good for stability (very free citizens that are a bit innovative), but the main problem comes from random events. What can I do to avoid peasant revolts and nobility being a bore? BTW, I believe the tech costs are insanely higher for my Songhai than for a European country. Is it true or is it just an impression?

Tech cost varies by civ, which is close to but not the same as religion. muslim is a lower tech group than "latin" and will have slower tech progress. This to reflect the orientation of the society at the starting position in 1419 = this isnt civ2, youre not starting with a clean slate.


Random events - they are driven to some degree by domestic policy sliders, but i think you will get some nasty events either way - forex if you move toward aristo to make the aristos happy, you get more events reflecting merchant unhappiness. Theres a faq on this at the paradox site. But the general approach ive seen is that if you play right it SHOULDNT cost that much to improve stab, and its actually better to get stab lowering events than other negative events. Keys are not to expand to far, keep BB points low, be cautious in changing DP sliders, etc.

Also, I suspect playing an innovative and aggressive Songhai may be asking for it - from an RP point of view Songhai in 1419 simply isnt ready socially for large scale expansion, despite the gold.

Why not start with a Euro power first - the game IS focused on Europe, and the rules are really designed with euro powers in mind, i think, even if everyone is playable. Or are you a veteran of the original EU?

	04-04-2005 21:13									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I played the first 20 years of a Spain game today and I forgot how easy it is to play them. From 1419-1490 I concentrated on killing Granada, vassalizing (by force) Portugal, Vassalizing (via event) Aragon, and invading North Africa. The main goal in North Africa was to take out Morrocco & Fez the colonize down the inland corridor so I could capture the two gold proviences in Mali along with the various pagan states in south western Africa before they converted Muslim via event. By the time Columbus arrived in 1490 I had a small fleet and army waiting for him so I could attack the Maya and the Aztecs (more gold, YAY!) plus I had converted pagan three proviences in southwest Africa including the CoT in Ivoria. All of the pagans in that part of Africa are annexed.

Vassalizing portugal by force while leaving Aragon alone seems kind of gamey to me - you do it cause you KNOW the Spain events are coming. I suppose one could come up with an RP justification, but I will save that for when im intent on WC (for which it seems a good strategy) rather than a mellow RP kinda game. Still sounds like you have an interesting game going.

	04-04-2005 21:48									#59
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Spiffor, you played Songhai for your first game?! Dude, that isn't a good place to start for reasons you already mentioned. Gold causes massive inflation unless you have income from trade and other goods to help balance it out though your satability problems can be solved by converting the pagans and by building Art Centers.
The more ethnicities and the more relgions you have in your empire the harder it is to keep everyone happy. Don't forget to adjust your religious tolerance sliders in order to keep as many people happy as possible.

My I suggest you restart in a 1492 scenerio as France or Spain? They will help you get a feel for things and they have enough resources that a newbie can successfully play them and do well. The experts start with one provience minors (like Treibizond) and conquor the world but it will take time to build up to that.

	05-04-2005 11:45									#60
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I just played with France for a few hours. And I must say France PWNs Songhai bigtime. Not only do I have reasonable money, inflation, and tech prices, but I also have scripted events which are much more interesting than a completely unscripted Civ.

The game offers plenty of possibilities for the French player (and I assume the European player in general) that a non-European player won't know. I mean, it's not like my Songhai could ever switch to calvinism

There's basically no doubt that I will win in 1819, considering that I'm way ahead of the competition at half-game (the Dutch have just seceded). I think next time I'll play with a country that's more difficult, but which still has resources. I was terrified by "three times 8000 pop" Britanny