08-03-2005 22:40									#1
	An EU2 Newbie, at last! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Bought the Strategy 6 pack (EU2, HOI, Vic, COTN, 2 crowns, and EU2-Asia)

Installed EU2.

It looks great - a little choppy and stuff is slow to load, which is natural since im playing on a machine below minimum specs. I skimmed the manual first, and played halfway through the tutorial - then jumped in - grand campaign, default settings, as England. Figured thats an easy one to start with on Imp2. Forgot that here its 1419, and Henry V has just renewed the war with France!!! Totally overwhelming, but definitely cool!.

Im gonna go back and finish the tutorial, look over the manual again, and then try with an easier country - Castile?

	08-03-2005 22:44									#2
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The tutorial and manual are pretty much useless. It's better to just learn it through playing it, and asking questions on the official forums. It'll be overwhelming at first, but you'll get the hang of it.

Austria might be another good country for you to get the hang of things with.

	09-03-2005 00:21									#3
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I thought the tutorial worked well for mechanics.

Enjoy getting to know the game. It is real fun.

	09-03-2005 03:43									#4
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The manual's pretty much worthless. As Ludd said, the forums are the best place for info (it's a fact that bears repeating).

Make sure you're patched to the most recent version...

And Castille should be a good choice; after you take care of Granada, you're surrounded by friends and have a decent economy - especially after the meger with Aragon.

	09-03-2005 03:49									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Jonny The manual's pretty much worthless. As Ludd said, the forums are the best place for info (it's a fact that bears repeating). Make sure you're patched to the most recent version....

the version in the six pack is 1.08. Thats the latest, I think?

	09-03-2005 06:01									#6
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1.08 is the latest unless you plan on installing the beta's. These seem to be tailored towards multiplayer so I wouldn't recommend them otherwise.

	09-03-2005 06:22									#7
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The most important thing to know about 1.08 is that an army that's even slightly larger than your upkeep limit will murder your budget. If you are bleeding too much red ink, disband or slaughter bits. Also, don't forget to halve the maintenance in peace time and hike it back up in war time.

	09-03-2005 11:33									#8
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The last part of that olast remark is very important to remember. I know I haven't always...

	09-03-2005 16:27									#9
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The game has a steep learning curve but once you get the hang of things you will likely find it to be aq far more enjoyable game then Civ3. Also don't forget to download the AGC-EEP mod as it adds in a ton of new events to keep things more interesting.

	09-03-2005 18:47									#10
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i finished the tutorial last night - its not that bad.

the events are cool - when i started playing England, i got the Lollard event - made me think about the dilemma the Lancastrians actually faced with the Lollards - of course i think i made a mistake by suppressing them, since I took a stability hit, and was at war with France and its vassals anyway.

	10-03-2005 03:47									#11
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Didn't even know about this 6 pack. Oooooh. Looks so good. Gonna have to scrape up some cash and a few thousand hours of free time.

	10-03-2005 22:52									#12
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I finished the tutorial - went over the manual - didnt read everything, went into more depth than skimming.

Then i fired up the game again, this time as Castile.

Ive gotten the impression that there will be a "Spain" event that will give me unity with Aragon, so im trying to stay on good terms with them, and for now Portugal. Im eager to try a manageable war, so I DOWed Granada. However Im still getting the hang of military stuff. I lost a battle in Gibraltar, then sent another army into Granada to lay siege.

Meanwhile Portugal asked me to join them in war on Fez and Algiers - I figured that was a good thing, so I joined them - why let them get all the spoils? In retrospect that was a mistake - better to keep wars more narrowly focused, i think. I sent a modest fleet of galleys into the med, thinking the muslims must be week navy wise - well the Algiers fleet of 20 warships punished my 7 galleys and sent them back out to the Atlantic, where they were caught by the Granada fleet as they went past the Straight. Finally went home to Andalusia, having lost one ship.

Meanwhile the algerians landed on murcia. I drove them off, but the province is pillaged, I think.

Ive now got a large army (29,000?) seiging Granada - i need to win, apparently to get them to even consider a peace with concessions to me. The army is attriting away (frustrating, but realistic) but i the city should fall soon.

Ive put my stability slider all the way up - as ive started at +2, is that overdoing it? Ive also promoted two bailiffs, but that hasnt come in yet, and ive been sending merchants to Tagus and Genoa.

Meanwhile Portugal is fighting the Fez and Algiers forces in Morocco, and the Aragonese are fighting Navarra.

	10-03-2005 22:59									#13
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quote: I finished the tutorial - went over the manual - didnt read everything, went into more depth than skimming.

As a rule of thumb, do not trust the manual 100%.

quote: Ive gotten the impression that there will be a "Spain" event that will give me unity with Aragon, so im trying to stay on good terms with them, and for now Portugal. Im eager to try a manageable war, so I DOWed Granada. However Im still getting the hang of military stuff. I lost a battle in Gibraltar, then sent another army into Granada to lay siege.

Good relations is not neccessary, just some key provinces in your control and no war against them IIRC.

quote: Ive now got a large army (29,000?) seiging Granada - i need to win, apparently to get them to even consider a peace with concessions to me. The army is attriting away (frustrating, but realistic) but i the city should fall soon.

Did you check the support limit?

quote: Ive put my stability slider all the way up - as ive started at +2, is that overdoing it? Ive also promoted two bailiffs, but that hasnt come in yet, and ive been sending merchants to Tagus and Genoa.

Opinions differ, some say don't care at all(that's the professionals, those extremely good at the game), others just that you should invest until you reach 0 stability. I tend to go to +1, and stop then, if not the revolt risk is troublesome at that point too.

	10-03-2005 23:18									#14
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Ive gotten the impression that there will be a "Spain" event that will give me unity with Aragon, so im trying to stay on good terms with them, and for now Portugal. Im eager to try a manageable war, so I DOWed Granada.

Granada is a good target, but you'll have some trouble with them re: religion. You may want to bump up your tolerance for the Moslem faith to lower revolt risks. You will get an event to create Spain. I don't recall any precondition for it to occur, just play on.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Meanwhile Portugal asked me to join them in war on Fez and Algiers - I figured that was a good thing, so I joined them - why let them get all the spoils? In retrospect that was a mistake - better to keep wars more narrowly focused, i think.

Alliances are tricky. I just finished a GC as France where I had an alliance w/ Spain, Austria, and the Papal States for the last 75 years of the game. I ddidn't have to worry at all about my European borders and was able to colonize North America and conquer pagans.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Ive now got a large army (29,000?) seiging Granada - i need to win, apparently to get them to even consider a peace with concessions to me. The army is attriting away (frustrating, but realistic) but i the city should fall soon.

Just keep training reinforcements and send them in. Also, here is a tip. Don't leave large numbers of troops together unless you've got a really good leader. Split armies, keeping them around 10,000. This reduces attrition rates. Once you're able to build artillery, seiges will go much faster. Getting a high war score is what is important, in order to demand provinces for peace.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Ive put my stability slider all the way up - as ive started at +2, is that overdoing it? Ive also promoted two bailiffs, but that hasnt come in yet, and ive been sending merchants to Tagus and Genoa.

Personally, I never invest in stability. It's usually feast or famine in regards to how stable things are. I've learned to live with it. Promote bailiffs early in provinces that produce 10D or more. I don't know if you get much of a return on bailiffs otherwise, early on.

	10-03-2005 23:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by dojoboy Granada is a good target, but you'll have some trouble with them re: religion. You may want to bump up your tolerance for the Moslem faith to lower revolt risks. You will get an event to create Spain. I don't recall any precondition for it to occur, just play on.

You'll get an event, changing religion and culture when you expel the Moors in the late 1400s.

quote: Personally, I never invest in stability. It's usually feast or famine in regards to how stable things are. I've learned to live with it. Promote bailiffs early in provinces that produce 10D or more. I don't know if you get much of a return on bailiffs otherwise, early on.

In latest patch(or one of the early betas), a new rule came into play. Any CB province gives you 25% of max income without a bailiff, 100% with. Non-CB provinces gives 0% without, 75% with. It's worth it. Get all provinces upgraded as soon as you can is my tip.

	10-03-2005 23:46									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai In latest patch(or one of the early betas), a new rule came into play. Any CB province gives you 25% of max income without a bailiff, 100% with. Non-CB provinces gives 0% without, 75% with. It's worth it. Get all provinces upgraded as soon as you can is my tip.

Must be the betas, because I play the mac version. We don't get the betas, just the offical rleases. Still at 1.08 for us.

	11-03-2005 00:12									#17
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quote: Originally posted by dojoboy Must be the betas, because I play the mac version. We don't get the betas, just the offical rleases. Still at 1.08 for us.

Oops, I stand corrected.

quote: From the 1.08 readme: - Census taxes revised. A core province gives 25% base, while a non-core gives 0% base. Then a tax collector adds 75% and each step of centralisation gives 2.5%. This is all capped at 100%.

	11-03-2005 03:12									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai quote: Did you check the support limit?

You mean my total support limit, or the limit of the province im invading? Im pretty sure im under the total support limit, and i thought the province limit only mattered if i didnt have a line of supply home, which Im pretty sure i did have. There should be SOME attrition even if I am supplied, correct? Im also not sure of the terrain in the two Granadan provinces - theres some color code for the main map I think?

	11-03-2005 04:49									#19
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark You mean my total support limit, or the limit of the province im invading? Im pretty sure im under the total support limit, and i thought the province limit only mattered if i didnt have a line of supply home, which Im pretty sure i did have. There should be SOME attrition even if I am supplied, correct? Im also not sure of the terrain in the two Granadan provinces - theres some color code for the main map I think?

He means the support limit of the province you're sieging. It does matter how many people you have in the siege but the attrition you take will be higher if you're out of supply (the limit shows up as a red number) than if you're in supply (limit is yellow).
If you are below the support limit you won't take attrition at all unless it snows (unlikely in Grenada) so use the 'siege' option after you click on your army to split some of your force away and get them out of that province.
Of course if you have continuous attacks on your siege force it might be worthwhile to maintain it at its present level as long as its not too far over.

	11-03-2005 19:15									#20
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After a couple of sieges, and putting down a rebellion in Castille and chasing aroud after Granada armies a couple of times, I made peace, accepting the prov of Gibraltar, and 25 ducats.

I think maybe I settled for to easy a peace - i need to go check on the Paradox site what the peace screen info means.

I guess I can go to war again, once ive got my troops sorted out, since i have permanent CB on them.

EU2 is VERY dangerous I think. Could endanger health, marriage, etc. They should put a warning label on it.

	11-03-2005 22:34									#21
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If you make peace then you want to keep the peace for five years or else you pick up a bunch of bad boy points. Get enough of those and everyone in the world will go to war with you so you want to avoid BB if at all possible. For a first war Gibraltor plus 25D isn't so bad. Other people would have tried to destroy their army and milk every last ducat from them so they wouldn't be able to rebuild so easily but you got him down to one provience and that is the important part.

	11-03-2005 22:44									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai You'll get an event, changing religion and culture when you expel the Moors in the late 1400s.

the Spanish Inquisition - ooh Yuchh. I'll have to go wash my hands after that one. But then they did warn that this was a game about a time of darkness - Inquisition and destruction of natives show in this game, but not the Slave Trade, IIUC?

It WOULD be nice however, if someone, say the Ottomans, got a boost in the years after 1492 to represent the contributions of the exiles. Oh, and the Netherlands, too.

	11-03-2005 22:46									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If you make peace then you want to keep the peace for five years or else you pick up a bunch of bad boy points. Get enough of those and everyone in the world will go to war with you so you want to avoid BB if at all possible. For a first war Gibraltor plus 25D isn't so bad. Other people would have tried to destroy their army and milk every last ducat from them so they wouldn't be able to rebuild so easily but you got him down to one provience and that is the important part.

Ok, now i can spend the next five years working on research, infrastructure, and stability, I guess.

Is it worth sending colonists to build up the Canary Islands?

	12-03-2005 00:51									#24
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark the Spanish Inquisition - ooh Yuchh. I'll have to go wash my hands after that one. But then they did warn that this was a game about a time of darkness - Inquisition and destruction of natives show in this game, but not the Slave Trade, IIUC? It WOULD be nice however, if someone, say the Ottomans, got a boost in the years after 1492 to represent the contributions of the exiles. Oh, and the Netherlands, too.

Slaves are a very valuable resource in the game. Certain proviences produce slaves and make a lot of money for the owner. Also, Morroco and Algeria get big boosts to their population if Spain goes with the inquisition. It is modeled very well in my opinion.

	12-03-2005 00:55									#25
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Ok, now i can spend the next five years working on research, infrastructure, and stability, I guess. Is it worth sending colonists to build up the Canary Islands?

You must use colonists or you lose them. Once six colonists is reached you don't increase your amount until you use them so always try to send them some where if you can afford it. I like to build up the canary islands or north west Africa until I get explorers like Don Cristobal to open up the new world. Once that happens it is all about grabbing as much of the new world as you can before someone else takes it. Make sure you force annex all the natives you discover because you can conquor them in one war (instead of several like the Europeans) plus if you convert them they not only change to your religion but also change to your culture.

	12-03-2005 00:56									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Slaves are a very valuable resource in the game. Certain proviences produce slaves and make a lot of money for the owner. Also, Morroco and Algeria get big boosts to their population if Spain goes with the inquisition. It is modeled very well in my opinion.

Historically the big pop boosts were to North Africa, IIUC, so theyve got that right - thats where most of the expelled muslims went. I was also thinking, parochial as ive been accused of being, of another group expelled at the same time, thats too small to matter in terms of population, but which contributed economically to the Netherlands, and both economically and even administratively to the Ottoman state.

	14-03-2005 19:28									#27
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I think i get the point about stability now. Its good to be AT +3, but not worth it to invest to get there, since you often get events that raise stability, and if youre already at +3 theyre wasted. Better to invest to plus 2, take the increases from a stab raising event, or build up again after a stab lowering event. And use the extra funds on research.


Alvaro de Luna is interesting, playing as Castille. Having him has got me trying to maneuver into a war with Navarra, so as not to waste a good general. Although its difficult, guarantees for Aragon, warnings to Nav, insults, dont do much to lower relations with Nav. And now Nav is vassal to England, raising risks. I tried to get bourbonais into my alliance (theyre independnent of France, and one of few powers not already in an alliance) but they wont join - so Portugal is my only ally. I just got the civil war event, and went with support Alvaro, since I already had a good sized army in place and well located to deal with the rebels. I didnt no the historical background and was interested to learn it. Now Im hoping Juans improved abilities will help in a war, and that things wont go to hell if I launch an unprovoked war on Navarra.

	15-03-2005 15:22									#28
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You'll just take a BB hit and a stability hit (-2 I believe) which isn't to bad. Try to build up relations with Aragon since if they're happy with you then you will get an event bringing them into your alliance and then annexing them.

	16-03-2005 03:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You'll just take a BB hit and a stability hit (-2 I believe) which isn't to bad. Try to build up relations with Aragon since if they're happy with you then you will get an event bringing them into your alliance and then annexing them.

i took a -3 hit - 2 for no CB, and -1 cause Navarra is Catholic, IIRC. Took me from 3 to 0.

Made a mistake - when I DOWed Nav, i got a popup asking me if i wanted Portugal in - i said no, figuring if or when England came in, I would get another chance to call on Port - but England comes in automatically and i dont seem to have the ability to call on Port again. So im on my own against both, but English armies in Gascony/Poitou are small, and my fleets are watching the seas.

Sent a large army under Alvaro into Navarra, a smaller army in Bearn. Won in Navarra, lost in Bearn. Navarrese army from Navarra ran into Cantabria, where i had neglected to post backup forces. Theyre encountering my own army retreating from Bearn - my army from Navarra is heading into Cantabria (minus a covering force in Navarra) after brushing aside the small english force coming down through Bearn. Ive made a new force of 3000 in Galicia which is coming into Cantabria, and am building new forces.

I hope to be able to force vassal Nav at the end - annexation would raise my BB points more than i want - Im not sure I will be able to manage a peace that justifies the cost of the war.

	16-03-2005 11:32									#30
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Vassalization should be good enough since in 30 years you can diplo-annex at half the BB cost. If you had waited until 1492 when Spain forms then you'd have got a shield on Nav and a perminent CB but this way isn't bad since you have a homogenous kingdom (all same ethnicity & religion) so your stabilty returns cheaply. If you play the Byzantines or Ottomans then you rule over a polyglot of people and religions so stability hits take forever to recover.

It might even be better not to bring in Portugal since it lowers your relations with them plus they may take a provence you need thus preventing a 100% victory.