16-03-2005 22:27									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor What you are advocating is to make these ignorant gangs much more tight-knit. You basically doom to indiscipline (and probably to school failure and later failure in life) the many normal kids who have followed some hellraiser because they found him cool. These "followers" are actually the bulk of the indisciplined (at least over here), and they can change their ways. Actually, most do later in life when they have to pay the bills, but when it's already too late to have grand ambitions.

That's why you make them "pay the bills" immediately. You show them consequences for their actions. They don't work they get no pay.

	16-03-2005 22:30									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's why you create segregated schools, so that those with the potential are with others who have the potential, and don't face the peer pressure.

Did you even read Spiffor's post?

quote: What you are advocating is to make these ignorant gangs much more tight-knit. You basically doom to indiscipline (and probably to school failure and later failure in life) the many normal kids who have followed some hellraiser because they found him cool. These "followers" are actually the bulk of the indisciplined (at least over here), and they can change their ways. Actually, most do later in life when they have to pay the bills, but when it's already too late to have grand ambitions. The real problem is not to isolate all the indisciplined, because most of them are actually soft, and could be rehabilitated fairly easily. The real problem is actually to isolate the hardcore hellraisers, especially the ones who also manage to convince others to follow their ways.

	16-03-2005 22:30									#243
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While it is true that a lot of students to take school serious there are more that do. But school for alot of people is more then studies. This is a place you meet your friends, girlfriends etc. Some kids even the smart ones like this. And the evauleation prcoess of every month and moving kids around that much i find to be a bit disruptive.

	16-03-2005 22:36									#244
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For a lot of students it's only a place to socialize. You can use that as a motivational tool. If they want to go to school with the winners, and most of them do, they have to perform.

	16-03-2005 22:40									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker As I said, anyone can learn algebra - you just aren't willing to.

You might as well say everyone can make a slam dunk. You have no idea what you are talking about.

	16-03-2005 22:44									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's why you create segregated schools, so that those with the potential are with others who have the potential, and don't face the peer pressure.

No.

That's why you remove the few really bad apples that spoil many weak willed

	16-03-2005 23:11									#247
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Spiffor is talking sense, as is usually the case.

	16-03-2005 23:15									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You might as well say everyone can make a slam dunk. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Oh gee something else I cant do Even though Im almost six foot tall I still stick to my words give the kids a choice. Dont just move them around every month.

	17-03-2005 00:09									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor No. That's why you remove the few really bad apples that spoil many weak willed

There's more than a few bad apples though. Things are really screwed up right now.

	17-03-2005 00:11									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Oh gee something else I cant do Even though Im almost six foot tall I still stick to my words give the kids a choice. Dont just move them around every month.

I'm 6-1 (and 1/2) and I can't make a slam dunk. I never could and I really practiced too. I also have limitations in certain academic fields too. It's nothing to feel bad about. Everyone has strengths they can excell at.

	17-03-2005 00:13									#251
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I need to ask what is considered a bad apple in the eyes here. Some kids that are really smart act up so they are accpeted. Some not so smart kids act up because they dont get what is being taught. Then you have just the stupid person that acts up to cause trouble. When you look at all kids in general why seperate them if they dont want it. Sure there are brainaics that need and want to be away from all the rest and by all means create a seperate class for those kids.

	17-03-2005 00:46									#252
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Well, my concern is this thread, so far, has only to do with discipline. I didn't adress the question of gifted vs slow students, but only between those who behave and those who don't.

What I call the "few bad apples" are few. They are naturally rebellious against the rules of the school, and they make a mess that hurts the schooling's quality. They are also natural leaders, who convince weaker-willed kids (the great bunch of "followers") to follow their example and make a mess.

I consider the "followers" (= the bulk) not to be bad apples. I consider those few rebellious leaders to be the ones that should be isolated. The "followers", once they're in an environment where no charismatic leader opposes school work, will behave acceptably well as to not make serious problems for the class.

When I'm speaking about discipline, I'm not speaking about the usual chit-chat that happens in a classroom, or to the occasional prank, because those are normal in all sane schools. I'm speaking about the systematic undermining of a teacher's ability to teach. When indiscipline is a serious problem, you bet there's a bad apple somewhere that's spoiling many fellows.

	17-03-2005 00:56									#253
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For me Behavior and learning abilities are the only thing that kids are judged for in school. Im not going to comment on students at college levels for most of them are adults and an judge right from wrong. The younger kids should have been taught to do this however some mask their insecureities by acting out. I dont really believe that there is that many really smart kids that want to be seperated from a group. I could be wrong, however by doing so you manage to relay to those that arent as smart that they dont cut the mustard so to speak. Children have a very keen sense of when they are being labeled. I think that is damaging on their sense of self esteem.

	17-03-2005 01:16									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor When I'm speaking about discipline, I'm not speaking about the usual chit-chat that happens in a classroom, or to the occasional prank, because those are normal in all sane schools. I'm speaking about the systematic undermining of a teacher's ability to teach. When indiscipline is a serious problem, you bet there's a bad apple somewhere that's spoiling many fellows.

hmm again my dad indicated to me that in 30 years he never had any student disrupt his class consistently or for long. There were minor disruptions here and there but that was it. IN 30 years he never faced a student that could undermine his ability to teach but he said it might be tougher in an urban setting.

he doesn't claim that all his students learned well though. Every year there were some that he was not able to reach.

	17-03-2005 01:38									#255
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quote: hmm again my dad indicated to me that in 30 years he never had any student disrupt his class consistently or for long.

Flubber's dad tought wood shop, and carried a bat...

	17-03-2005 01:48									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Flubber's dad tought wood shop, and carried a bat...

Nope generally 8th and 9th grade math and literature with occasionally some higher grade literature-- In earlier years pretty much everything.

You don't need a bat. A lot of teachers only need their "don't F*** with me " look. One teacher at my school was like that . Never had a discipline problem because he REEKED authority. He also was pretty reasonable in that he never bothered with any non-disruptive quick chats or note passing and you could get up and go to the bathroom whenever you wanted etc. He actually gave a one minute talk at the first of the year about treating people like adults until they prove they need to be treated otherwise.

	17-03-2005 01:56									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor No. That's why you remove the few really bad apples that spoil many weak willed

To lift the werewolf curse, we must slay the original werewolf.

	17-03-2005 02:08									#258
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I had a lot of teachers that had the same look course till my senior year they were all nuns

	17-03-2005 03:41									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski I need to ask what is considered a bad apple in the eyes here. Some kids that are really smart act up so they are accpeted. Some not so smart kids act up because they dont get what is being taught. Then you have just the stupid person that acts up to cause trouble. When you look at all kids in general why seperate them if they dont want it. Sure there are brainaics that need and want to be away from all the rest and by all means create a seperate class for those kids.

Bad apple is not really the term I want to use, but I was responding to Spiffor. I think that kids who only show up whenever they feel like it, never do homework, and don't put in any effort when they are in class are the students who don't deserve to be there, and they mess it up for the school and the other students. Schools would do much better if they were able to give these kids the boot. What we do with these students I don't know. Maybe they go to a bootcamp where their needs are better met or something.

There's a school here in Fresno that you can only get into if you have near perfect attendance and things like that. It's a very high achieving school and the students don't necessarily have higher intelligence although some of them do. They're just students who are very serious about thier education.

	17-03-2005 03:51									#260
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Kid, you are sounding more and more like a conservative.

	17-03-2005 04:53									#261
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That's because Kid is a conservative with an overblown sense of self-entitlement.

	17-03-2005 05:04									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's because Kid is a conservative with an overblown sense of self-entitlement.

I thought he was a commie

	17-03-2005 05:09									#263
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He is.

	17-03-2005 05:48									#264
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Spiffor No. That's why you remove the few really bad apples that spoil many weak willed To lift the werewolf curse, we must slay the original werewolf.

So we should exterminate the kids who are "naturally rebellious"? That's a little harsh don't you think?

Well OK, it sounds like a plan. At what age do you think the culling should occur? Six? Ten? Twelve?

	17-03-2005 06:28									#265
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Two

	17-03-2005 06:56									#266
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I still say aneeshm has this all backwards.

The rebellious students are the bright ones.

	17-03-2005 07:03									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The rebellious students are the bright ones.

Sick and tired of pathetic teachers, no doubt.

	17-03-2005 07:13									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I still say aneeshm has this all backwards. The rebellious students are the bright ones.

It depends on which "rebelious" behavior, but that is true in some cases, but not all.

	17-03-2005 07:33									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The rebellious students are the bright ones.

Perhaps the one who know why they're rebellious are, but there are plenty of disruptive or destructive students who either can't or won't do the work because it's beyond them, or doesn't suit them.

	17-03-2005 07:43									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I still say aneeshm has this all backwards. The rebellious students are the bright ones.

I think by rebellious he means disruptive.