02-05-2005 07:27									#31
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More chat with Paddy. (I don't have time for this).

He still does not get it. Apparently all of BOH is now pi$$ed at us.

They still say the A-M war is theirs , not ours, which in my mind throws into question the alliance.

His last point was to challenge me to raise troops - 15 he said. Or 10 to be nice.

I give up. I think we should ally with Ankh-Morpork, Lost Boys, and DR, as per the runour he was sperading. Sounds like a good idea to me.

	02-05-2005 07:53									#32
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Without reading the chat logs, I'm a little biased from what you say, but it's hard to imagine how he wasn't jerking you around.

We certainly did not agree to the map, which we didn't even receive until after the alliance chat. What crap.

	03-05-2005 05:10									#33
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I agree with Kloreep.

OTOH some of you have mentioned that Paddy is honorable in his dealings. So ask him what do we get out of this apart from non agression and curtailment of a future threat.

	03-05-2005 07:18									#34
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Paddy is plenty honourable. I just don't think he or BOH can see foreign affairs from any other perspective but their own. Their general view is that BOH went to war against Ankk-Morpork, we stayed neutral in this war and did not commit any troops, so they get the A-M land. That is as far as their view extends - which IMO, is very short-sighted given the alliance we are trying to form.

And Kloreep - not sure he wasn't jerking me around. I really do believe that is his and his team's view.

	03-05-2005 09:02									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Beta And Kloreep - not sure he wasn't jerking me around. I really do believe that is his and his team's view.

Heh. That really does not help my opinion of them. Or rather of their mental faculties. The land claims situation is one thing - I can understand their view, it's just that if they really do hold to it, we cannot help but be forced in to the position of their enemies. But how the hell would they get the idea that we agreed to their border proposal?

Oh well.

Edit: BTW, about Paddy being honorable in his dealings - I wouldn't necessarily judge him based on his PBEM playing. He has an entire team deciding things with him, and even if there is a group tendency toward honor, they may well have conciously chosen to roleplay something different than their normal style.

	03-05-2005 16:17									#36
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Klo - good point about Paddy and his team.

I should see if I can get the chat transcripts - if he even has them. At one point I said that their team was delusional if they thought we would buy into an alliance that would imply that sort of border deal. He got upset with me calling them delusional. I said OK - I fell their thinking is misguided.

I tried repeatedly to get them to see it from our perspective, and what we were getting out of the alliance. His teams position - and it was Chrisius doing most of this kind of yacking in the earleir summit - is that we did not want to be involved in the A-M war, they are doing all the fighting, they get the land.

	03-05-2005 19:15									#37
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As I said, that stance does make sense to me. Granted to us that they were actively trying to keep everyone out of the AM war, but despite that, the result is that they are taking on AM alone.

But in practice, things are just not going to work out between us and BOH if they follow that course. It's the nature of any civ empire that tries to double its size while leaving its neighbors the same; the neighbors must take action to insure they aren't gradually swamped. When one expands, all must, up until enough civs are eliminated that no one wants more land. I'm not sure how to put it any better than "it just doesn't work for us in practice," but that's really how I see it.

	04-05-2005 03:56									#38
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Kloreep - I am with you completely.

I just can't seem to explain this to Paddy or BOH. It also strikes me that they have a team made up of largely PBEM players. They may not fully appreciate the demo game dynamics, and how their actions are perceived in the larger picture.

	04-05-2005 07:36									#39
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This doesn't apply to PBEM?

Oh well. Hopefully we can get through to them.

	04-05-2005 07:47									#40
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In a quick chat with Paddy tonight - he asked for our counter-proposal.

Also see the chat with snoopy of Euphorica.

	04-05-2005 16:29									#41
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As per the above, BOH wants us to present a counter-proposal on the post-A-M border arrangements, given that we are not happy with what they proposed.

Do we want to bother with this at all? Especially in light of what snoopy told me in the chat last night - that BOH sees this as a temporary alliance simply to deal with DR an dthat it does not extend past that, and it does not apply to any actions against A-M.

That being the case, I am almost ready to tell BOH to take a flying leap, and see if we cannot help A-M survive.

Please let me know how you think we should respond to BOH.

	05-05-2005 00:49									#42
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Without logs, I cannot judge how many angles have been tried to explain our position to BOH, and thus cannot judge how hopeless trying to get it across to them is.

Of course, they do at least seem willing to hear a counter-proposal. I'd rather not tell them to "take a flying leap" at this juncture considering we're still trying to get a fighting force built.

	05-05-2005 04:50									#43
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What map changes would be beneficial to us and yet not be wholly unacceptable to BOH? What's our best offer and what is our bottom line.

The very fact that they have asked for counter proposals suggests a willingness (reluctantly perhaps) to compromise.

	05-05-2005 05:16									#44
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How about this?

Attachment: 2230[1].south.jpg
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	05-05-2005 05:21									#45
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That assumes they are planning on raizing the obvious town that's in undiscovered area.

The main thing we want is an evenuall boarder town that uses both that fish and sugar, and another boarder town that uses the oasis in addition to the horse town that AM has. This also gives us a good amount of territory to get into.

	05-05-2005 07:20									#46
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Hmmm - and it is very reasonable. Are others Ok with jon's proposal.

	05-05-2005 07:34									#47
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Could we make it not dip so much in the west so we can get a spice source?

It looks fair to me. Excepting that dip, the line seems to me to be drawn about halfway between north and south coasts. So about an even land division, which is quite reasonable. They get a largish jungle while we get a largish desert, but oh well; the jungle is just as bad as the desert until they devote a lot of worker power to clear it.

	05-05-2005 07:36									#48
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Perhaps in compensation for raising the dip in the west (perhaps removing it altogether...) we could move the line down a few tiles south. Those mountains to the north of Felinicity seem like a natural barrier.

We could see if BOH is willing to exchange maps of the whole western area? Together, I'm sure we could form a complete north-south picture of the area west of LB and Euphorica's westernmost expansions.

	05-05-2005 20:13									#49
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oops, lost attachment trying to change it

Last edited by joncnunn on 05-05-2005 at 20:25

	05-05-2005 20:19									#50
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The bend in the right assumes that the tribe of "T" whatever says around. But if they are KOed, the bend goes away.

I had to reverse the black to white thru the unuexplored section.

I'm intending the border marker to be a range of worked tiles in our empires, with no one founding cities on the border. [Tiles cut thru can be worked by either civ]

The eclipses are ideas on planned border cities with them. The difference is color has no significance.

I'd definately be okay with the border near the mountain dipping to it to allow Blood Oath to work the several tiles there that wouldn't be worked by us.

Last edited by joncnunn on 05-05-2005 at 20:31

	05-05-2005 20:25									#51
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Take 2

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	06-05-2005 02:30									#52
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Looks good to me. A third luxury would be great, even in a Monarchy.

	06-05-2005 04:09									#53
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I tried a version with the map cleared. I think it is the same line. If we are OK, I will present to BOH tonight.

Attachment: babmap-clear-line.jpg
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	06-05-2005 08:19									#54
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BTW, I think we should be prepared to sweeten this deal with discount tech or somesuch. They are the ones at war. Strategic value of commerce for land aside, I doubt their egos would let them accept this without us giving them something for the equal border. (I know mine wouldn't take something like this when I was at war. )

	06-05-2005 16:34									#55
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Monarchy when we are done???

	06-05-2005 20:56									#56
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Yes, that is the same worked tile line.

Yes, giving them a discount on Monarchy. And perfered customer status for the Spice since there are at least two there.

	07-05-2005 01:03									#57
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No need to give them a whole tech as expensive as Monarchy, but a discount would be good.

And the preferred spice would be good to offer as well, although they do have one of their own on their side of the line.

	11-05-2005 00:04									#58
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Bump

Do you think we should set up a chat with BOH, or send the proposal as an e-mail?

	11-05-2005 03:15									#59
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I'll send the proposal this evening, and offer a chat time.

Maybe someone else should handle the next chat. My last one with Paddy went sideways, and this way if we change our minds you can laways blame it on me - the rogue ambassador.

	11-05-2005 03:36									#60
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I'd be willing to do a chat with him, assuming it's okay for me to blunt about my view of the matter: if BOH tries to force their border on us, we might as well break off friendly relations with them now rather than when we bump up against that border in the future.