22-03-2005 12:55									#151
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Damn. Well, at least they know where their bread is buttered!

	22-03-2005 12:55									#152
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In fact, if it weren't for the public imperative of education for the masses, the administration would rightfully tell all governments to piss off and stop bothering them, but thankyou for the charter, have a biscuit.

	22-03-2005 12:56									#153
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Damn. Well, at least they know where their bread is buttered!

It is by the students if the students are winning in the only forum that counts, that being the court of public opinion.

	22-03-2005 13:00									#154
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Only indirectly. Cooler heads should prevail when this decision is placed in the context of other priorities at election time.

Your government really wimped out on this one. By giving in to some of the demands, it makes it look to the people like they are admitting that the reduction wasn't well thought out and correct in substance in the first place.

	22-03-2005 13:08									#155
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Not my government, however...

Being more vocal and active is part and parcel of a parliamentary system. There is no one else to look out for you, but well, you.

From time to time people have to wap the government upside the head to let them know that it is the government, not the people, who have got things wrong.

How could the government be wrong if they reacted to public opinion after a significant segment of the citizenry thought things were serious enough to take very disruptive action? Action that was seriously disruptive to none but themselves by perhaps prolonging their studies by another 6 months to a year?

Sounds like the government did a good thing, to me. Wimp or winner might be in the eyes of the beholder.

	22-03-2005 15:37									#156
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The minister yesterday said that he would hear a new counter-offer from the students.

	22-03-2005 16:04									#157
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quote: Democracy at work - when everyone stays home nice and quiet and lets their elected dictators do whatever they please, then it ceases to be a democracy. People have to hold the government responsible, and that doesn't just mean voting for "the other guy" four years down the road.

Maybe because your happy with what the government is doing?

Maybe because the government is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, but your a selfish bastard who wants more than is due to you. Special interests anyone?

And again, what is the reason they "activists" should get a free vactation from job/school? Arguements that the school is not part of the government simply reinforce the position that holding the students to normal academic standarts is NOT taking sides.

	22-03-2005 16:10									#158
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No, Patroklos, they are doing what is open to them. They are taking action.

'The people' may then decide if the students are right or the government is. That is where this will be decided, ultimately.

	22-03-2005 16:17									#159
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And why should the universities suspens normal academic procedure? It is an absurd arguement any way you put it.

	22-03-2005 16:30									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos And why should the universities suspens normal academic procedure? It is an absurd arguement any way you put it.

In the case of such a huge collective decision, blindly following academic procedures without looking at the situation is pointless, and it's clear provocation in the face of the student association.

	22-03-2005 16:56									#161
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Negative.

It is precedent, that if decide to act like a horses ass for whatever cause, be willing to bare the consequenses of your actions.

The fact that you are removing the consequences of the action just makes their little block party that much for pathetic. If they believed in there cause so much to strike in spite of failing, then I might give them a little credit. Right now they are trying to have their cake (money) and eat it too (not fail), then wash is down with brandy (free vacation).

And if they do suspend the semester what happens to any students who have sanity and decided to do what they are supposed to do and go to class? Or if the universities are simply nonfunctional right now, who is concerned about the ones not able to go to class?

	22-03-2005 17:35									#162
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Nowadays, we have loans, so that people can pay their own way.

And take several decades to repay them. Education benefits the whole society, but only the students pay for it.

	22-03-2005 17:36									#163
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You know, Pat, the vast majority of us aren't authoritarians who believe whe should take whatever the government shoves up our butt.

	22-03-2005 20:05									#164
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And take several decades to repay them. Education benefits the whole society, but only the students pay for it.

The students pay the least percentage of their education costs.

	22-03-2005 20:06									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris "College kids" also happen to believe that education accessibility is an investment.

So?

	22-03-2005 20:07									#166
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Certainly no one should exert inappropriate pressure on strikers. Giving 0's to people who missed a mid term because of a strike would count as dirty pool as these things go. Besides, the fight is between the students and the government, not the students and the administration. Why should the administration take sides? Coercing the students with grades would be taking sides.

The administration:

1) isn't coercing the students, it's enforcing normal policy

2) is EMPLOYED by the govt

EDIT: nm on #2

	22-03-2005 20:14									#167
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quote: And take several decades to repay them.

Which is totally fine, considering that the education is used over a period of several decades. Consider, e.g., the advisability of taking on a home loan.

	22-03-2005 20:46									#168
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quote: Originally posted by DanS That's a circular argument. Come up with a better one.

what i mean is, the government should invest in its future by paying for people's education, therefore they should help as much as possible, rather than half ass it like they are.

	22-03-2005 22:10									#169
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Again, that's a circular argument. People should want to invest in their own future. They are the ones directly benefitting from the investment, not the government.

	22-03-2005 22:28									#170
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quote: You know, Pat, the vast majority of us aren't authoritarians who believe whe should take whatever the government shoves up our butt.

I wish I could say the vast majority of us are not whiners who fault the government, or anything and anything really, no matter what they do. Its called be a reasonable person

quote: what i mean is, the government should invest in its future by paying for people's education, therefore they should help as much as possible, rather than half ass it like they are.

Maybe if students were personally invested in their education they might take it a bit more seriously, like I did. Obviously this is not the case in Quebec.

And of course when most people waste their college years playing Counterstrike and discovering internet porn via a T-1 line, it isn't any money out of my pocket to fund their four year long kegger.

	23-03-2005 00:24									#171
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Which is totally fine, considering that the education is used over a period of several decades. Consider, e.g., the advisability of taking on a home loan.

Yep, I bet you think people who rack up credit card debt because of our consumerist culture are fine too.

	23-03-2005 00:26									#172
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Eh, no, read his argument again.

	23-03-2005 01:59									#173
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Governments should fund education because it is in society's interest to have an educated and knowledgeable populace. It is also a fact that many people cannot afford a top notch education and if we followed DanS's advice we still wouldn't have a public education system because his argument applies to all forms of public education and not just colleges. That's just to reactionary for me to swallow.

	23-03-2005 04:30									#174
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thats what im saying oerdin.

	23-03-2005 04:40									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Governments should fund education because it is in society's interest to have an educated and knowledgeable populace. It is also a fact that many people cannot afford a top notch education and if we followed DanS's advice we still wouldn't have a public education system because his argument applies to all forms of public education and not just colleges. That's just to reactionary for me to swallow.

	23-03-2005 12:31									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The administration: 1) isn't coercing the students, it's enforcing normal policy

Strikes are widely recognised to be disruptions to 'normal policy'. A private company, nay, the government itself is not allowed to hire scabs to replace striking workers in Quebec.

You don't think students taking collective action might be covered by some of the same principles?

It is only they themselves, the students who are inconvenienced by this strike. It is only they who may have to spend an extra 6 to 12 months in school due to skipped terms.

Why should coersion in the form of permanent black marks on academic records be allowed to be used to disuade students from what appears to be a lawful excercise of their collective rights?