21-03-2005 18:16									#61
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It's funny how conservatives can always be counted on to support undermining the future of society.

	21-03-2005 18:18									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's like union thugs beating the guy who hires scabs. So you ARE admitting you are on the same moral plane as the mafia. I guess you won't complain if the police beat the student protestors either, right?

Uhhh... no. It's all a question of civilians using violence in the face of institutionalized violence. The students are only asking that courses be a) canceled or b) reported instead of being given Fs. This is not asking much. Refusing this is pure provocation, however legal it is. Fortunately, not everyone thinks like you, and the university authorities have admitted that failing grades would not be given as a result of the strike.

If we were running debt rackets and beating people for it, then you might have a point, but I'm affraid you'll have to find another argument.

	21-03-2005 20:12									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The difference being, of course, that we're students of the same university where they're teaching.

And they're citizens of the same country where Congress has power. So?

quote: They won't take it, but obviously they consider failing grades (and the hassles associated with it) to be too much. If the strike ends soon, they'll just do the rest of the course later; if it's too long, they'll want the semester to be canceled, without the Fs.

So? You're point was that the students were going to threaten to beat them up or vandalize their property to get the profs to do this.

quote: Some people who want to work, actually stop working and go on strike. Could you believe that?

And if you go on strike, you shouldn't expect to get paid. or for the company not to hire someone else.

	21-03-2005 20:13									#64
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's funny how conservatives can always be counted on to support undermining the future of society.

It's funny how commies really DO support violence protest :B:

	21-03-2005 20:14									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Uhhh... no. It's all a question of civilians using violence in the face of institutionalized violence.

Institutionalized violence? WTF?

quote: The students are only asking that courses be a) canceled or b) reported instead of being given Fs. This is not asking much.

It is when YOU DON'T TAKE THE CLASS.

Hey prof, I'm gonna skip the final. Just let me take it some other time, m'kay?

	21-03-2005 20:28									#66
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quote: They won't take it, but obviously they consider failing grades (and the hassles associated with it) to be too much. If the strike ends soon, they'll just do the rest of the course later; if it's too long, they'll want the semester to be canceled, without the Fs.

Ahhh, I see whats going on.

I wonder what the mid term grades looked like before the strike

	21-03-2005 20:37									#67
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quote: It's all a question of civilians using violence in the face of institutionalized violence.

Yes, threatening to fail students for not following the policies of the class is 'institutionalized violence' . Get real.

quote: If we were running debt rackets and beating people for it, then you might have a point, but I'm affraid you'll have to find another argument.

How about intimidating people to go your way through violent behavior? The mafia analogy stands. Unless you'd rather like to be labelled 'terrorist'?

	21-03-2005 20:38									#68
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This is what it boils down to:

The state is giving the students free money.

It decides to give them less free money.

The students go on strike, saying they won't TAKE ANY MONEY AT ALL unless they get more.

Me:

The government NEGOTIATES with them.

Me: WTF?

	21-03-2005 20:43									#69
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quote: Yes, threatening to fail students for not following the policies of the class is 'institutionalized violence' . Get real.

Isn't that part in parcil with the education they want for free, you show up or fail?

That is what they are protesting to get, they just don't want to pay for being thrown out of school for not attending.

	21-03-2005 20:46									#70
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quote: The government NEGOTIATES with them. Me: WTF?

This is why Quebec has a reputation of being full of pansies .

	21-03-2005 20:47									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker It's funny how commies really DO support violence protest :B:

A bit of the ultraviolence is fun, my drogs.

	21-03-2005 20:49									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Me: WTF?

What happens to Quebec's economy if a generation of students doesn't graduate?

	21-03-2005 20:56									#73
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quote: What happens to Quebec's economy if a generation of students doesn't graduate?

They graduate next year, after paying a pitance for the PRIVLAGE!!!

	21-03-2005 21:20									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker This is what it boils down to: The state is giving the students free money. It decides to give them less free money. The students go on strike, saying they won't TAKE ANY MONEY AT ALL unless they get more.

Not exactly. Education subsidies take two forms: low tuition fees, and a "loan and grant" program by which eligible students (the poorer ones) get a mix of monetary grants and low-interest loans to cover their living expenses.

Even though the strike is protesting against a cut in the loan and grant program, it is conducted by halting school attendance.

	21-03-2005 21:23									#75
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Grants are free money that allow you to pay for school. The state is offering less of this free money. They say well, then we'll no longer go to school. Which is what I said.

	21-03-2005 21:24									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's all a question of civilians using violence in the face of institutionalized violence. Yes, threatening to fail students for not following the policies of the class is 'institutionalized violence' . Get real.

It's certainly a mean of pressure aimed at breaking the popular legitimacy mandate created by the vote.

Fortunately, most professors aren't reactionary like you, they're listening to the students in good will anyway.

	21-03-2005 21:25									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The government NEGOTIATES with them. Me: WTF? This is why Quebec has a reputation of being full of pansies .

Governments negociating with demonstrators
Democracy

	21-03-2005 21:25									#78
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Legitimacy? What legitiimacy? The ONLY vote that counts when you talk about how to spend tax dollars is the vote OF THE CITIZENS, not the vote of the people to whom the tax dollars are going. I vote myself a $1,000,000 stipend from the government

	21-03-2005 21:29									#79
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quote: It's certainly a mean of pressure aimed at breaking the popular legitimacy mandate created by the vote.

Ah the legitimacy of a student vote . I'm sorry, but do they run the faculty? Do they hire and fire teachers? Nope. So there is no mandate over the professors by a bunch of snot-nosed punks.

And once again, you defend violence to accomplish your goals. Very mafia-like, or if that offends you, very terrorist.

quote: I vote myself a $1,000,000 stipend from the government

And if they refuse, I'll destroy every Congressman's car! I'm justified because they failed to listen my legitimate vote!

	21-03-2005 21:29									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Grants are free money that allow you to pay for school. The state is offering less of this free money. They say well, then we'll no longer go to school. Which is what I said.

Students are still taking the money of the loan and grant program though. It would be so much fun if the government decided to withold the money during the strike, something that hasn't even been mentioned so far.

	21-03-2005 21:30									#81
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That would be good

	21-03-2005 21:32									#82
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Wussy government... grow some balls Quebec!

	21-03-2005 21:35									#83
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Why are conservatives always so short-sighted? Free schooling benefits everyone, as it helps the economy grow.

	21-03-2005 21:37									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Legitimacy? What legitiimacy? The ONLY vote that counts when you talk about how to spend tax dollars is the vote OF THE CITIZENS, not the vote of the people to whom the tax dollars are going. I vote myself a $1,000,000 stipend from the government

Yeah, you're such a smartass. Students have a seat on the University's board. They also have contracts that make membership in the association mandatory to the pursuing of studies at the uni, and all of this is detailed in hundreds of pages-long protocols.

The relationship between the students and the university is similar to that of the workforce and the means of production. The only difference is that the university is a public non-profit organization whose aim is to use a "mean of production" to provide education to society.

Scabs are illegal in Quebec, and failing striking students is similar to hiring scabs: it's an illegitimate mean of pressure.

I'm glad to hear about your conception of democracy, which is for you nothing more than intermittent dictatorship mandates with no right at all to stage protests in the intervals between elections.

	21-03-2005 21:38									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Grants are free money that allow you to pay for school. The state is offering less of this free money. They say well, then we'll no longer go to school. Which is what I said.

The government exists to serve the people. As I said previously in this thread, this sort of scenario is only good for a government that percieves it's citizens as an oponent or rival.

The government can't "win" when it's people lose.

	21-03-2005 21:38									#86
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Giving into student demonstrators so easily does NOT benefit everyone in the long run. They will notice the trend and exploit it.

	21-03-2005 21:38									#87
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why are conservatives always so short-sighted? Free schooling benefits everyone, as it helps the economy grow.

You're missing the point. Whether or not free schooling is a good idea, the students STRIKING for more money is simply absurd.

	21-03-2005 21:40									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Wussy government... grow some balls Quebec!

This is the most unpopular government of the past 30 or 40 years. Their popularity level went as low as the high 20s.

If they are to use more provocation against students and unions, they'll be facing a general public strike very soon and the province will be paralyzed.

	21-03-2005 21:41									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Giving into student demonstrators so easily does NOT benefit everyone in the long run.

Government should work for the people. Making the government more responsive is a good thing.

Kuci, yes, I agree it is absurd. But it works for some reason.

	21-03-2005 21:41									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Yeah, you're such a smartass. Students have a seat on the University's board. They also have contracts that make membership in the association mandatory to the pursuing of studies at the uni, and all of this is detailed in hundreds of pages-long protocols.

Then they can use that seat to try and change it. But I don't see how striking from going to school should get other people to give you more money.

quote: The relationship between the students and the university is similar to that of the workforce and the means of production. The only difference is that the university is a public non-profit organization whose aim is to use a "mean of production" to provide education to society.

There's another difference: the students don't do any work for the university - an employee gives something back to the employer.

quote: Scabs are illegal in Quebec, and failing striking students is similar to hiring scabs: it's an illegitimate mean of pressure.

Scabs are illegal? It's illegal to hire new workers when your previous employees quit? WTF?!

quote: I'm glad to hear about your conception of democracy, which is for you nothing more than intermittent dictatorship mandates with no right at all to stage protests in the intervals between elections.

Again, I vote myself $1,000,000 dollars! Teh democracy!