21-03-2005 22:31									#121
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd They are citziens because they live under the government. What they do or do not have in common with other citizens isn't really an issue, but they are just as real as anyone else, I assure you.

They are a small portion of the citizens, and they're asking for everyone else's money.

	21-03-2005 22:32									#122
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How is that denying the right to demonstrate?

It's not. I was talking about the right to strike on that one.

	21-03-2005 22:33									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris What are your arguments, where are your people?

If you don't give me the money my right to demonstrate is useless!

	21-03-2005 22:40									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker They are a small portion of the citizens, and they're asking for everyone else's money.

That's very astute.

Altough "asking for everyone else's money" is a bit misleading... they're not asking for all of it, and it comes out of their own pockets too.

A "small portion" can be misleading, too. It depends on what demographic you are talking about. The entire population? Yes. The youth? not so much so. Future workers? Pushing it. ect...



But this all has little to do with the fact that it is the government's duty to serve all citizens. If the students are failed or kicked out of school, it is not a success of the government (in a fight against it's own citzenry), it is a failure of the government to adequetly perform it's role.

	21-03-2005 22:42									#125
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I know alot of you have a hardon for demonstrating and protesting and civil disobediance because you think it lets you stick it to the man, but do you ever stop and think about whether the demonstrators are right before you put your dixie up under the tap?

Canada is a representative democracy correct? God forbid an elected official makes a real call of financial realities instead of just giving money to whoever asks because the mob chants it. The check to this is the next election, not a group senior skip day posers who are actually nor even inconvienencing themselves to play concerened citizen.

	21-03-2005 22:42									#126
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quote: A "small portion" can be misleading, too. It depends on what demographic you are talking about. The entire population? Yes. The youth? not so much so. Future workers? Pushing it. ect...

Try:

quote: They are a small portion of the citizens

	21-03-2005 22:43									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker If you don't give me the money my right to demonstrate is useless!

Like I ever said anything close to that. I was only responding to Imran, who said that the government shouldn't cave in because people are asking for it, which is jsut silly.

	21-03-2005 22:46									#128
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quote: If the students are failed or kicked out of school, it is not a success of the government (in a fight against it's own citzenry), it is a failure of the government to adequetly perform it's role.

The government's role in question here is the professors, whose job is not just to teach students, but give them a stamp of approval as well as an attached quality rating.

To do the first would require students to attend. Whose fault is that? The second would be to fail all of them for have a lack of self control and disipline to their studies.

This is a very simple concept, you skip class and you fail

	21-03-2005 22:47									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Try:

Try responding to the argument instead of resorting to nonsensical semantics.

	21-03-2005 22:47									#130
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double post.

	21-03-2005 22:48									#131
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quote: Like I ever said anything close to that. I was only responding to Imran, who said that the government shouldn't cave in because people are asking for it, which is jsut silly.

It depends on how many are asking and what they are asking for.

I believe we are against giving in to ass clowns, ass hats, and all assorted asses, case in point selfish punk college students from Quebec.

	21-03-2005 22:56									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos The government's role in question here is the professors, whose job is not just to teach students, but give them a stamp of approval as well as an attached quality rating. To do the first would require students to attend. Whose fault is that? The second would be to fail all of them for have a lack of self control and disipline to their studies. [quote]This is a very simple concept, you skip class and you fail

Yes, it is a simple concept, and it is at the center of what the students are doing by striking. They're refusing the "government's role" because it is unsatisfactory.

That's what democracy is about - not kowtowing and groveling before the government, taking whatever scraps it gives you with eager praise knowing that you should be happy enough to avoid it's wrath, let alone recieve this great generoisty!


EDIT: actually, university professors aren't on a government payroll, are they?

	21-03-2005 23:06									#133
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quote: That's what democracy is about - not kowtowing and groveling before the government, taking whatever scraps it gives you with eager praise knowing that you should be happy enough to avoid it's wrath, let alone recieve this great generoisty!

Once again...

quote: I know alot of you have a hardon for demonstrating and protesting and civil disobediance because you think it lets you stick it to the man, but do you ever stop and think about whether the demonstrators are right before you put your dixie up under the tap?

I don't know where you get this thing that demonstrating, no matter what for or why are who against is somehow good Democracy.

Democracy simple means you havet the ability to demonstrate if you want to, not that you should or even ever. And Democracy does not mean that the government is automatically wrong because you have a picket sign. Wait for it..

YOU MIGHT BE WRONG!!!

Do you honestly think demonstrations and protests mean a damn thing in most instances now adays. There is always a protest going on. Protests if you raise taxes, protests if you lower taxes, protests if you don't change taxes at all, and sometimes all three as once. Net results, protests are just white noise to most people, certaintly governments.

Then again this isn't protesting or demonstrating, this is a "strike."

	21-03-2005 23:07									#134
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quote: actually, university professors aren't on a government payroll, are they?

Whose paying them? Sure as hell isn't the students.

	21-03-2005 23:19									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I don't know where you get this thing that demonstrating, no matter what for or why are who against is somehow good Democracy.

Speaking up for what you believe in and being active (that is, being an activist) on issues important to you isn't just 'good democracy', it is fundemental democracy.

quote: And Democracy does not mean that the government is automatically wrong because you have a picket sign. Wait for it.. YOU MIGHT BE WRONG!!!

There isn't a universal wrong and right. If you think the government is wrong, it is wrong as far as you are concerned.

quote: Do you honestly think demonstrations and protests mean a damn thing in most instances now adays.

They do to every single person it effects, and sometimes alot of people that it doesn't even effect.

quote: There is always a protest going on. Protests if you raise taxes, protests if you lower taxes, protests if you don't change taxes at all, and sometimes all three as once.

Democracy at work - when everyone stays home nice and quiet and lets their elected dictators do whatever they please, then it ceases to be a democracy. People have to hold the government responsible, and that doesn't just mean voting for "the other guy" four years down the road.

quote: Net results, protests are just white noise to most people, certaintly governments.

They are white noise to people uneffected by the issue, and unfortunetly the government often does get away with dismissing it as white noise aswell, due to the cultural mindset that exists today, but they shouldn't be able to.

quote: Then again this isn't protesting or demonstrating, this is a "strike."

Which is a form of protest...

	21-03-2005 23:20									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Whose paying them?

I don't know, that's why i was asking.

	22-03-2005 03:40									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker They are a small portion of the citizens, and they're asking for everyone else's money.

Most people don't use all government services anyway. Where's the problem?

	22-03-2005 03:54									#138
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used to be here in the united states, the government actually helped people like MY parents go to school. no more.

	22-03-2005 05:05									#139
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A much smaller proportion of the population went to school during your parents' time. College was a lot cheaper for the government to support then. Nowadays, we have loans, so that people can pay their own way.

	22-03-2005 05:09									#140
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wait wait wait, why would you prefer people paying loans for what should be a given by the government? danS, you never cease to boggle my mind.

what happened to a benevolent american government?

	22-03-2005 05:11									#141
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I've never thought that college education should be given free by the government. My college loans weren't onerous and I am satisfied that I got my money's worth. If I didn't get my money's worth, then it's my own damn fault for paying that university.

Fee paid. Service rendered.

	22-03-2005 05:14									#142
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Why not? I think it should be heavily subsidized by the government because its an investment by the government. IT shouldnt be looked at as an investment by the individual solely for the individual.

	22-03-2005 05:16									#143
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quote: I think it should be heavily subsidized by the government because its an investment by the government.

That's a circular argument. Come up with a better one.

	22-03-2005 06:00									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Most people don't use all government services anyway. Where's the problem?

That they think somehow we'll be convinced to give them more money by them refusing to use the service they're being provided (while, incidentally, still taking the money they're being given).

They get money because the govt and the people think it's a good investment, not because some college kid said "give me money!"

	22-03-2005 07:42									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That they think somehow we'll be convinced to give them more money by them refusing to use the service they're being provided (while, incidentally, still taking the money they're being given). They get money because the govt and the people think it's a good investment, not because some college kid said "give me money!"

"College kids" also happen to believe that education accessibility is an investment.

	22-03-2005 12:13									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Don't you get it, DD. The students should have unfettered right to do anything they want and no one should dissade them from their actions. Ever.

Certainly no one should exert inappropriate pressure on strikers. Giving 0's to people who missed a mid term because of a strike would count as dirty pool as these things go.

Besides, the fight is between the students and the government, not the students and the administration. Why should the administration take sides? Coercing the students with grades would be taking sides.

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Whose paying them? Sure as hell isn't the students.

Actually, the students pay fees, so yes, the students are paying them to an extent.

I'm not sure where the 'free education' herring got introduced, but it ain't free, even in one of the most socialist leaning provinces.

	22-03-2005 12:19									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That they think somehow we'll be convinced to give them more money by them refusing to use the service they're being provided (while, incidentally, still taking the money they're being given). They get money because the govt and the people think it's a good investment, not because some college kid said "give me money!"

Actually, that's exactly what they think. Except it isn't you, so you can keep your knickers knot-free.

This is a battle between the students and the government. The battlefield is public opinion. The college kids are pitching their case to the public that higher education deserves more money.

The students are winning by all reports.

Of course, one wonders if the students would have struck against a different government, but that is another discussion.

	22-03-2005 12:24									#148
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Give 'em hell, Boris. Not a lot of times I would find myself on the same side of the fence with Spiffor and General Ludd, but I think you're on solid ground in this thread.

Students should have recourse to public demonstrations/disobedience/strikes without being academically penalised, assuming the collective decides on the action. Whether you're right or wrong on the specifics of this case is for the people of Quebec to decide.

	22-03-2005 12:47									#149
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Bah!!!

quote: Why should the administration take sides?

Because the administration is employed by the government?

	22-03-2005 12:53									#150
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Ahh, no. The adimistration is employed by a chartered institution which is at arms length from government.