21-03-2005 21:41									#91
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Government should work for the people. Making the government more responsive is a good thing. Kuci, yes, I agree it is absurd. But it works for some reason.

Because their government is ****ed up.

	21-03-2005 21:42									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You're missing the point. Whether or not free schooling is a good idea, the students STRIKING for more money is simply absurd.

Nope. Students are the first targets of free education, and they use what little pressure means they can. When the government provides a free education, it doesn't do so out of charity, but out of national interest: the aim of the government is to have an educated population. The only way the students can pressure the government (save for intermittent votes) is to not behave as the government wishes. Strikes are maybe the only way to do so.

	21-03-2005 21:42									#93
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As I said, it's like senior citizens striking because of proposed SS cuts.

	21-03-2005 21:43									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Giving into student demonstrators so easily does NOT benefit everyone in the long run. They will notice the trend and exploit it.

Student strikes are notorious for being ineffective, right, but right now it's the largest strike since '68, facing a weakened and unpopular government, desperate to find a way to be reelected in two years.

Students are not idiot neither, they wouldn't have taken the risk to waste a semester and take the streets without first smelling the blood.

	21-03-2005 21:44									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker As I said, it's like senior citizens striking because of proposed SS cuts.

Only that in the eyes of a typical government (or, atleast, the economist side of the government), senior citizens are the past and students are the future.

	21-03-2005 21:44									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris If they are to use more provocation against students and unions, they'll be facing a general public strike very soon

	21-03-2005 21:44									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Nope. Students are the first targets of free education, and they use what little pressure means they can.

It's absurd that them striking should create pressure! The government should fail them and get new students!

	21-03-2005 21:45									#98
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quote: Government should work for the people. Making the government more responsive is a good thing.

And what makes you sure that giving the students more free money is what is best for 'the people'? Perhaps there are social programs which are underfunded which need the money more than the students. I believe OB said that there is a financial crunch right now in Quebec.

	21-03-2005 21:47									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker It's absurd that them striking should create pressure! The government should fail them and get new students!

Draw a line in the sand. Sacrifice one school year children for the greater good.

I guess that's the main difference, Kuci. In Quebec, if the government doesn't give in, the government is gone. In the States, if the government gives in, the government is gone.

I perfer our model. Being pushed around by a student strike, pffft!

	21-03-2005 21:47									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker It's absurd that them striking should create pressure! The government should fail them and get new students!

1. In Canada, a great many people from the usual age range are already students, or are done with their studies. Unlike the private sector, the Canadian academia doesn't have a huge "reserve army" of would-be students that have been rehected, and that would accept any working conditions.

2. A student is typically high in human capital. Right monetarily, every three-years' student you fire is a waste fo tens of thousands of dollars. It's completely absurd.

3. Canada rightly wants to have an educated population.

	21-03-2005 21:50									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I guess that's the main difference, Kuci. In Quebec, if the government doesn't give in, the government is gone. In the States, if the government gives in, the government is gone.

Yeah, that's deference between free and authoritarian societies.

	21-03-2005 21:50									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Because their government is ****ed up.

It works in the U.S. also.

	21-03-2005 21:51									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Draw a line in the sand. Sacrifice one school year children for the greater good. I guess that's the main difference, Kuci. In Quebec, if the government doesn't give in, the government is gone. In the States, if the government gives in, the government is gone. I perfer our model. Being pushed around by a student strike, pffft!

Well, if they manage to convince the public opinion that the cuts were a good idea in the first place (which is not the case), then they would still have to convince people that sacrificing 200,000 students is also about "public good".

	21-03-2005 21:52									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Sacrifice one school year children for the greater good.

That would not increase the greater good. In fact, it would do the opposite. It would hurt the future of the province. These students are striking for the greater good.

	21-03-2005 21:57									#105
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I love Imran's conception of greater good. Is it about neoliberal autocrats pillaging social-democracy to lower taxes, and macing students?

Popular will has gone a sad long way if it's nothing more than voting every five years. What's the right to demonstrate? a useless fanfare?

	21-03-2005 21:58									#106
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It's about having a government that can spend taxes based on the wishes of its constituents, not the wishes of people demanding money.

	21-03-2005 22:04									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Popular will has gone a sad long way if it's nothing more than voting every five years. What's the right to demonstrate? a useless fanfare?

Who's talking about denying the right to demonstrate?

	21-03-2005 22:10									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker It's about having a government that can spend taxes based on the wishes of its constituents, not the wishes of people demanding money.

According to Boris, the constitutens widely agree with the protestors. Unless you believe he lies, I don't see why you are *****ing about it.

	21-03-2005 22:11									#109
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If the constituents agree with the students, they shouldn't have to strike, the government should give them the money. It's the idea that somehow the students striking should have some sort of effect that I find absurd.

	21-03-2005 22:19									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker If the constituents agree with the students, they shouldn't have to strike, the government should give them the money.

You are aware that democratic governments have the nasty tendency not to strictly follow the wishes of the citizens, aren't you?

quote: It's the idea that somehow the students striking should have some sort of effect that I find absurd.

Like any political happening, a strike is an efficient way to push an issue on the agenda. Should there have been no strike, the issue would have fallen under the radar, and the citizens wouldn't have formulated their preferences on the issue.

Imagine the other scenario: the Students protest, but the citizens oppose the strike. The government would have obtained a higher legitimacy with its orginal decision, and wouldn't have changed it. As it is, the strike is a key element in actually having a democratic debate. And now that the issue has been raised, it is an opportunity for the government to lead a policy that is in accordance with the wishes of the citizens.

	21-03-2005 22:19									#111
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quote: I love Imran's conception of greater good. Is it about neoliberal autocrats pillaging social-democracy to lower taxes, and macing students?

The greater good is not being held hostage by a special interest and instead deciding how to use the money to the benefit of all the constituents, not just some interest group.

	21-03-2005 22:20									#112
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quote: The government exists to serve the people. As I said previously in this thread, this sort of scenario is only good for a government that percieves it's citizens as an oponent or rival.

Why do you seem to believe that college students constitue the citizenry, or that they have anything in common with the majority of the real citizenry?

I have no problem with them striking or demonstrating. I have a problem with suspending normal academic procedure for what amounts for most of them to be a big keg party and an excuse to skip class, and getting PAID for it.

	21-03-2005 22:24									#113
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quote: Like any political happening, a strike is an efficient way to push an issue on the agenda. Should there have been no strike, the issue would have fallen under the radar, and the citizens wouldn't have formulated their preferences on the issue.

This is no strike, this is a paid for vacation.

	21-03-2005 22:26									#114
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Who's talking about denying the right to demonstrate?

He's saying that the government shouldn't give in to the demands. What else than expressing demands can demonstrating be for?

Besides, he thinks that professors should not change the academic calendar, regardless of the strike.

	21-03-2005 22:27									#115
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Again, I demand $1,000,000!

	21-03-2005 22:28									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Why do you seem to believe that college students constitue the citizenry, or that they have anything in common with the majority of the real citizenry?

They are citziens because they live under the government. What they do or do not have in common with other citizens isn't really an issue, but they are just as real as anyone else, I assure you.

	21-03-2005 22:28									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Again, I demand $1,000,000!

What are your arguments, where are your people?

	21-03-2005 22:29									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Besides, he thinks that professors should not change the academic calendar, regardless of the strike.

How is that denying the right to demonstrate?

	21-03-2005 22:30									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos This is no strike, this is a paid for vacation.

I wished my school went on strike a few times if we could get full scholarship money. It's like Spring Break 2!

	21-03-2005 22:30									#120
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How is that denying the right to demonstrate?

Don't you get it, DD. The students should have unfettered right to do anything they want and no one should dissade them from their actions. Ever.