23-03-2005 07:27									#331
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Question 1- Is she PVS? Proven yes twice in a court of law.
And who her guardian is isn't an issue, so what questions are unanswered?

	23-03-2005 07:28									#332
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Given all of the legal hurdles that Schiavo has been through, what exactly makes you think the facts haven't already been properly examined? A few days worth of reading on the issue. Lots of unanswered questions...

as opposed to a dozen years of adjudication...

but Drake knows better, right?

	23-03-2005 07:32									#333
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The facts haven't been examined since Judge Greer's initial decision. And my whole point is that I don't know for sure what's going on. She could be in a PVS. Then again, she could not be. I have doubts about both sides in this case, which is why I'd like to see a thorough re-examination before they go ahead and kill this lady. Shouldn't we be sure on the facts before we kill someone?

	23-03-2005 07:34									#334
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they aren't killing her, they are letting her die naturally. There is a big difference.

	23-03-2005 07:35									#335
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And they are sure on the facts, and have been for a long time.

	23-03-2005 07:35									#336
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Denying someone food and water is not letting them die naturally...

	23-03-2005 07:38									#337
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It is very natural. If a person was PVS before all this techno mumbojumbo, that is how they would die unless they were killed by what may have made them PVS before that could happen. She won't feel anything as she is incapable of feeling anything. What is the big deal?

	23-03-2005 07:38									#338
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That's right

	23-03-2005 07:41									#339
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quote: It is very natural. If a person was PVS before all this techno mumbojumbo, that is how they would die unless they were killed by what may have made them PVS before that could happen.

So would quadriplegics. Are you saying that denying them food that they can't get for themselves wouldn't be "killing them"? Christ, do you guys have any conscience? At least AH is probably just trolling, but the rest of you...

	23-03-2005 07:43									#340
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thats right

	23-03-2005 07:44									#341
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It would still be natural, but in that case it would be wrong.
Natural!=Right
Natural=How something would happen without interference.

	23-03-2005 07:45									#342
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quote: thats right

	23-03-2005 07:46									#343
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I think the difference is Drake, a qualdrapeligic can eat food and drink if it is put there in front of him. Terry couldn't eat if you shoved it in her mouth and chewed it for her.

	23-03-2005 07:50									#344
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quote: I think the difference is Drake, a qualdrapeligic can eat food and drink if it is put there in front of him.

How does the means of delivery make a difference? Both will starve to death if others don't feed them.

	23-03-2005 07:51									#345
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quote: Are you saying that denying them food that they can't get for themselves wouldn't be "killing them"?

And what if no one could pay for her treatment? Would the government be required to pay for her upkeep no matter what? And how far does that go? Is the government required to take care of every homeless quadriplegic and PVS case?

	23-03-2005 07:53									#346
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What does that have to do with anything? We're discussing a specific case involving a woman whose parents are willing to pay for her treatment. I've made no call for a law requiring treatment in cases like these, so I fail to see the relevance of your post.

	23-03-2005 07:55									#347
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that would be the logical end to follow if this situation goes the other way

	23-03-2005 07:57									#348
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Maybe to you Sava...

	23-03-2005 07:59									#349
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He said it would be logical to give control to the parents if she started getting better...

This of course can't happen because the P stands for persistant.

	23-03-2005 08:00									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten What does that have to do with anything? We're discussing a specific case involving a woman whose parents are willing to pay for her treatment. I've made no call for a law requiring treatment in cases like these, so I fail to see the relevance of your post.

So you see a difference between letting someone die and killing someone? If no one can pay, would removal of a feeding tube be killing them or simply letting them die? And if it'd be killing them, who gets charged with the death?

	23-03-2005 08:03									#351
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It would be killing them, but who says someone has to get charged with the death? Killing someone isn't necessarily the same as murder. The state kills people on occasion and no one is charged with it. An interesting topic of discussion perhaps, but pretty irrelevant to anything I've said so far. Why don't you start a thread on it?

	23-03-2005 08:06									#352
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Killing someone is not chargable (under murder or manslaughter) only if it is done by the state or done in self-defense. Even in self-defense, however, self-defense is a legal defense to murder.

	23-03-2005 08:19									#353
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Terri Schiavo is being killed by the state, since a court ordered the removal of her feeding tube.

	23-03-2005 08:25									#354
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But what if the hospital removed the feeding tube after being convinced there was no chance of survival, and the family was the one who originally took the case to court?

	23-03-2005 08:29									#355
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What do these hypothetical situations have to do with the issue at hand? Like I said, if you want to talk about this, start a thread.

	23-03-2005 08:31									#356
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Terri Schiavo is being killed by the state, since a court ordered the removal of her feeding tube.

No, the court ordered that the HUSBAND'S decision be followed. The husband made the call, not the court.

	23-03-2005 08:31									#357
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Do you actually think that a federal court is going to end up reversing the decision of the Florida courts?

	23-03-2005 08:34									#358
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quote: No, the court ordered that the HUSBAND'S decision be followed. The husband made the call, not the court.

Factually wrong again, as usual Sava. The husband petitioned the court to make the determination for him.

quote: Do you actually think that a federal court is going to end up reversing the decision of the Florida courts?

Again, what does that have to do with anything?

	23-03-2005 08:35									#359
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where are you getting this misinformation? sean hannity?

	23-03-2005 08:42									#360
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quote: May 1998�c Michael files petition for court to determine whether Terri's feeding tube should be removed; Michael takes position that Terri would chose to remove the tube; Terri's parents take position that Terri would chose not to remove the tube

quote: Michael Schiavo did not make the decision to discontinue life-prolonging measures for Terri. As Terri's husband, Michael has been her guardian and her surrogate decision-maker. By 1998, though -- eight years after the trauma that produced Terri's situation -- Michael and Terri's parents disagreed over the proper course for her. Rather than make the decision himself, Michael followed a procedure permitted by Florida courts by which a surrogate such as Michael can petition a court, asking the court to act as the ward's surrogate and determine what the ward would decide to do. Michael did this, and based on statements Terri made to him and others, he took the position that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures. The Schindlers took the position that Terri would continue life-prolonging measures. Under this procedure, the trial court becomes the surrogate decision-maker, and that is what happened in this case.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

Really Sava, I'm getting tired of having to explain things to you. I might be more willing to do so if you weren't constantly talking down to me, but given that you continue to do so while getting the facts wrong I think I'll just stop listening to you altogether. You aren't worth my time...