22-03-2005 10:24									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Where can I find unbiased history of what happened here? I have been reading some pretty nasty stuff the husband did, but I'm not sure I can believe this stuff. I'm curious of the hole history of this thing. A timeline of sorts.

You are providing him with two biased histories, which is what those links mostly point to.

	22-03-2005 10:28									#242
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And you're providing him with one history that is so undetailed (probably in an attempt to avoid the appearance of bias) that it is of little use to anyone who wants to go beyond a cursory understanding of the situation. I guess which is better is a matter of personal preference...

	22-03-2005 10:44									#243
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The law is probably going to rightly get slapped down, and the Florida ruling will stand, the Terry's kidneys will give out and she wil die quietly, and the right to life hypocrites in the Repug party and their zealots on the street will have to move on to make someone else a test case.

Hopefully none of these nuts will turn violent.

	22-03-2005 10:49									#244
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Yeah, let's hope no one gets killed...

	22-03-2005 10:54									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Yeah, let's hope no one gets killed...

I'm hoping you did that for a laugh, cause you got one.

ACK!

	22-03-2005 10:55									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Yeah, let's hope no one gets killed...

D'OH

	22-03-2005 10:55									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Yeah, let's hope no one gets killed...

Let Terry Schiavo die already. Who gives a **** what you or anyone else thinks? That is the basic point of this case, I, you, nor anyone else should have a say in this save the immidiate people involved, and given they disagreed, the courts had to decide, and they decided to let her die (and no, she won;t suffer pain, nor hunger pangs nor any of that bullshit).

If any side is filled with self-righteous, arrogant, selfish moralists trampling on people's rights are the "pro-lifers" in this case. I Do hope this comes and bites them in the ass, and I think there is a good chance it will- people don;t like politicians getting involved in something so terribly personal.

	22-03-2005 11:05									#248
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quote: Let Terry Schiavo die already.

If this was about letting her die, I wouldn't be up in arms about it. Unfortunately, it's about killing her, based on facts that are very much in doubt.

quote: I'm hoping you did that for a laugh, cause you got one.

Tongue was planted firmly in cheek...

	22-03-2005 11:10									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Let Terry Schiavo die already. If this was about letting her die, I wouldn't be up in arms about it. Unfortunately, it's about killing her, based on facts that are very much in doubt.

Again.

Thankfuly, I have some faith in our court system unlike those that want to tear it down. IN the end, she will be allowed to die, against the wishes of so many misguided folks.

	22-03-2005 11:15									#250
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Well, I have to give you credit; you're at least clever enough to stick solely to the legal issues surrounding this case. I wonder why you're one of the few to realize the moral argument is a losing one for the euthanization crowd...

	22-03-2005 11:16									#251
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DID YOU LOOK AT THE POLS? NOBODY WANTS THE GOVERNMENT DECIDING THESE THINGS DRAKE!!!

	22-03-2005 11:19									#252
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this is all I need to know. While I don't like the husband, I think the right thing to do is obvious.

quote: "The majority of her cerebral cortex - the part of the brain that thinks and feels - has been destroyed and replaced by fluid," he said.

quote: Unlike a patient in a coma, Dr Walker believes there is no hope for recovery for someone in Mrs Schiavo's condition - known as permanent vegetative state - because the cerebral cortex does not regrow once destroyed.

though I was hoping to find out exactly why she collapsed. That seems strange to me.

	22-03-2005 11:19									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Well, I have to give you credit; you're at least clever enough to stick solely to the legal issues surrounding this case. I wonder why you're one of the few to realize the moral argument is a losing one for the euthanization crowd...

Because I don't really give a **** whether this woman lives or dies, as long as the rule of law is upheld, because society is made up of individuals but is bigger than them and more important. Which is why what Congress did is vastly more immoral than anything being done in this case in Florida, or by any of the parties- they are endangering the US system of checks and balances. Shame on them.

	22-03-2005 11:25									#254
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quote: though I was hoping to find out exactly why she collapsed.

I don't think they know for sure. Probably resulted from some unknown complication associated with her eating disorder.

As for the condition of her brain, I would be more inclined to believe Michael Schiavo's experts if they would actually do a modern brain scan on the woman. Her last scan was a CAT scan in 1996, which is not nearly as accurate as modern PET or MRI scans. I can't think of any good reason why they haven't done such a scan, which makes me suspicious.

quote: Which is why what Congress did is vastly more immoral than anything being done in this case in Florida, or by any of the parties- they are endangering the US system of checks and balances. Shame on them.

Good post on the subject...

http://althouse.blogspot.com/2005/0...federalism.html

	22-03-2005 11:37									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Which is why what Congress did is vastly more immoral than anything being done in this case in Florida, or by any of the parties- they are endangering the US system of checks and balances. Shame on them. Good post on the subject... http://althouse.blogspot.com/2005/0...federalism.html

Not really. The head of the judiciary committe in the house, during the debate, when explaining why THIS bill was needed explained that in our current system the federal courts could already issue a writ of habeous Corpus (spelling), but in doing so, they assume the facts as defined in the state court to be correct.

Hence, the basis for this law is to overturn the prior court case by giving the feds the right to ignore the finding of the lower court, and not rule simply on possible procedural mistakes or issue.

This si what makes the law an affront to our legal system. If we want to compare this to a criminal case- imagine Congress deciding that even thought someone has been found guilty by a state court, that we are going to say that a Federal court can now have jurisdiction of the case, and in making its decision, can ignore the rulings of the state court.... That is the valid comparison. And I hope you see why its wrong.

	22-03-2005 17:17									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I wonder why you're one of the few to realize the moral argument is a losing one for the euthanization crowd...

Only if you completely ignore the facts, Drakey, which you've been quite adept at doing.

	22-03-2005 17:24									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: though I was hoping to find out exactly why she collapsed. I don't think they know for sure.

Yes, they do know for sure. She had a heart attack resulting from a potassium imbalance due to her diet. No blood was pumping for five minutes, which pretty much meant her frontal cortex died of oxygen depreivation.

quote: As for the condition of her brain, I would be more inclined to believe Michael Schiavo's experts if they would actually do a modern brain scan on the woman. Her last scan was a CAT scan in 1996, which is not nearly as accurate as modern PET or MRI scans. I can't think of any good reason why they haven't done such a scan, which makes me suspicious.

I have to say that this is an incredibly specious argument. A CAT scan is perfectly good at showing what's missing. If you saw a person was an amputee, would you insist that they get an MRI to make sure, since your eyes aren't as modern as an MRI? Sure, an MRI would show more detail, but what you fail to understand is that the area in question doesn't exist to have detail shown. It's not like a CAT scan is going to show an area of the brain as not existing if it' there.

Why you couldn't figure this out on your own is beyond me. I thought you wre supposed to be smart.

	22-03-2005 17:41									#258
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I'm not the one implying that interpreting brain scans is as easy as noticing whether a person is missing a limb or not...

	22-03-2005 17:44									#259
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Have you ever seen a brain scan, Drake? It's pretty easy to determine if the brain in question is missing. A CAT scan isn't going to mess that up, and an MRI will provide no more detail on something that isn't there. It can only provide more detail on what is there.

What do you expect? For them to put her through the MRI and suddenly discover that her frontal cortex really is there?

	22-03-2005 17:56									#260
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quote: Have you ever seen a brain scan, Drake?

I was looking at Terri Schiavo's CAT scan today. Wasn't easy to interpret at all. I'm no expert, but she seemed to have more damage to her midbrain than to her frontal cortex. Hard to determine what section of a three dimensional brain is damaged based of a two-dimensional CAT scan, though.

	22-03-2005 18:13									#261
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The fact people with no medical training are trying to analyse brain scans really sums up this whole tragic farce.

	22-03-2005 18:16									#262
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Is it really true that she's never had a PET scan?

	22-03-2005 18:18									#263
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quote: The fact people with no medical training are trying to analyse brain scans really sums up this whole tragic farce.

I never really tried to analyze it; just looked at it for curiosity's sake. I know I don't have the training to understand what I'm seeing, which is why I find che's claim that brain scans are as easy to understand as a look at an amputee to be laughable...

quote: Is it really true that she's never had a PET scan?

Looks like it.

	22-03-2005 18:27									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Is it really true that she's never had a PET scan? Looks like it.

From what I understand a PET scan or even an MRI would give a clearer picture of the damage the brain has sustained than a CAT scan in this case. That seems strange that such tests would not be done when deciding matters of life and death.

	22-03-2005 18:28									#265
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Its pretty clear that it's a piece of rubbish and will be tossed as soon as it's challenged.

The law was designed to be found unconstitutional. That way it will rile the religious right while it won't p!ss off everyone else so badly that they'll remember by the next election.

	22-03-2005 18:33									#266
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quote: From what I understand a PET scan or even an MRI would give a clearer picture of the damage the brain has sustained than a CAT scan in this case. That seems strange that such tests would not be done when deciding matters of life and death.

Doesn't seem so strange if you believe the allegations that Michael Schiavo has done next to nothing to diagnose and treat his wife's condition since around 1992. I wish the facts were clear on this issue, but my gut instinct is telling me that something untoward has been going on here. How good could her care possibly have been if she hasn't even had an MRI?

	22-03-2005 18:39									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Part of a package. Dems have successfully outmaneuvered the GOP on Social Security and the budget so far....

I don't think that puting your fingers in your ears and singing La La La loudly rises to the level of outmaneuvering. In fact I think that the Dems attempts to sabotage even a discussion about Soc. Sec. was hurting them. Now the Repubs have managed to do something stupid enought to put them in an even more unfavorable light as it hides the Dems own embarrassment by sucking away all of the media oxygen from the SS issue.

	22-03-2005 19:20									#268
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SMACKDOWN IN FEDERAL COURT

quote: Posted on Tue, Mar. 22, 2005 Judge won't order feeding tube reinsertion Associated Press TAMPA, Fla. - A federal judge on Tuesday refused to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, denying an emergency request from the brain-damaged woman's parents. The ruling by U.S. District Judge James Whittemore comes after feverish action by President Bush and Congress on legislation allowing her contentious case to be reviewed by federal courts. The judge said the 41-year-old woman's parents had not established a "substantial likelihood of success" at trial on the merits of their arguments. The tube was disconnected Friday on the orders of a state judge, prompting an extraordinary weekend effort by congressional Republicans to push through unprecedented emergency legislation early Monday aimed at keeping her alive. Schiavo did not have a living will. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, has fought in courts for years to have the tube removed because he said she would not want to be kept alive artificially and she has no hope for recovery. Her parents contend she responds to them and her condition could improve.

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grand...ws/11195326.htm

	22-03-2005 19:30									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky Since I'm too lazy to read the last 8 pages, could one of the Christians here explain why the Christian right wants to keep her from going to heaven ?

She didn't buy the right Bible, or donate enough to the right televangelist's crystal cathedral fund.


I think they should just legislate to retroactively declare the Schiavo's marriage a 'gay marriage' and therefore invalid.

That would still keep up their support amongst the fundy right, whilst allowing them to pretend they even give a flying sh*t about the supposed sanctity of heterosexual marriage.

	22-03-2005 19:55									#270
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quote: SMACKDOWN IN FEDERAL COURT