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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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For our less patient friends...
Our OCC series starts with the White player, here Cunobelin of the Celts. The starting location is not bad, with rivers, two visible Whales and another hidden, but a location with four specials should be to the east if you are interested in looking around. Do you settle immediately or see what else is available?
I suggest we each decide on starting city location and play to 2000BC, by which time we should have made the transition to Monarchy or started researching Republic. A pause at that point will let us compare our starts and decide then how to proceed.
Normal size map
7 civs, Restarts On
Deity difficulty level
No starting techs
OCC game rules apply, with rehoming of bribed caravans permitted. Victory by earliest spaceship landing.
Early Landing play also possible, but please start a separate spoiler thread as your progress will likely be faster.
And the starting save (Classic/2.42 version):
 Attachment: cu_b4000.sav
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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Thanks Elephant for the start. I liked the starting position and decided not to wander looking for something slightly better.
I’m at 2000 BC now. I decided to skip Monarchy and head straight for Republic, but still have about 10 more turns of research to discover it. I am at size 3 and have built a library and 2 warriors. Here is the log:
4000 Cardiff
3950 hut – 50g
3800 Alphabet
3500 settlers (using size 1 trick)
3450 warriors, Cardiff now size 2
3350 warriors, start on barracks intending to switch to a library after Writing is discovered
3300 Code of Laws
3150 Grass mined to silk, one settler joins city, now size 3 and working the 3 specials
2900 Writing, barracks switched to a library
2850 2 barb archers land
2800 barbs attack, no damage!
2700 library, partially rushed
2550 Bronze Working (on path towards Trade, the next vital tech after Republic, start on Colossus)
2050 Literacy
2000 stop point, with 84 shields accumulated so far in the Colossus wonder.
Attachment: cu_b2000.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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Peaster
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Florida
Jul 2003
time: 00:27
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I played 2.42, and am willing to join Grigor's MGE team or not. All I ask is a little RCC.
I think RJM asked in the other thread whether black-clicking etc is legal... (?)...I didn't do it, but don't mind if others do. Also, I don't use utilities, but I took E's hint about the hidden special.
4000BC - Cardiff. I will follow Paul's advice and go for BW, then Monarchy.
3950BC - hut 50g (didn't notice this makes the c1 trick possible).
3900BC - I rush a warrior for 8g (and repeat this for 2nd w). I don't see any urgency to irrigate, so my settler is exploring the river system (but finds nothing).
3750BC - BW->CB.
3700BC - Have 2 warriors, and switch to Colossus.
3450BC - Growth to c2 and 5s/t. My settler is back, irrigating.
3350BC - CB->Alp
3250BC - hut 50g
3050BC - Barb horse attacks my busy settler, but loses.
Hut = WC.
2700BC - Ooops! Cardiff has reached size 3, and riots; warrior #2 is still away.
2550BC - Alph->C.Laws
2000BC - Warrior 2 has been back a few turns, so Elvis is retired and the silk is worked.
Will build Colossus and get Code of Laws in about 6 turns. Have 2 techs off the monarchy path. I think my biggest mistake was making only 2 warriors, and I am not sure hut-popping was wise. I feel a bit unlucky wrt huts, but was fairly lucky my settler survived.
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Grigor
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Oberlin, Ohio
Jan 2000
time: 00:27
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The MGE team is off to an absurdly rocky start:
Initial observations: Whales means size 1 settler not possible. OTOH, building Warrior - warrior - settler will allow exploration and still do the jump to size 3 when the city again reaches size 2. Clearly this site needs some settler work by our extra NONE. Road and Mine the special, make 2 rivered forests, irrigate. Lots of that needs to happen early, so the extra settler will be useful. The big issue in OCC will be managing trade. We are at (9,45) on Continent 3. Must look up trade delivery expectations in GL. (ha)
4000BC Found on the site. I don't trust exploration.
3950 Resarching BW as in my recollection of Smash's games long ago - the idea is to start building Colossus really fast.
Wait! A hut! maybe I will get my size 1 settler after all! hut: barbs. Oops...
3900* Horse kills NONE settler. This is not going well.
3850 Looks like warrior will come online in time.
3800 Warrior built, and fortifies. I am now safe from barbs.
3750 BW=>Alph
3300* Build settler. This may be a terrible plan.
3250 Alph=>Writing (Republic plan)
3050 hidden special site roaded. Exploration warrior sallies forth
2950 The same injured barb horse reappears. Evidently, Barbs never rest.
2850 Barb horse immolates on sturdy warrior.
2800 Oh - the explorer finds the site I really wanted. Whale, corn, spice - pretty juicy. I hope somebody else finds it.
2650 Size 2. Barbs appear in NE. Start Colossus. The hidden special irrigated to Forest. Wait - No Special! I must have done the wrong square...Oh well, it needed to be done anyway.
2500* Writing=>CoL
2300* Mining the second hidden special square.
2050 Barb Pirates land right next door. Uh-Oh. And I just posted a serious dissertation about haw we no longer worry about Barbs in the early game.
2000 They kill my settler. What a spectacularly disastrous turnset!
But here it is anyway.
 Attachment: cu_b2000.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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I also have MGE and could switch to that if we continue from an MGE save. Of course, those only having MGE can use either kind of save.
Anyone with 2.42 but without MGE? If so, why not pick up a cheap copy of MGE? It's worth having just for the MP feature.
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rjmatsleepers
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Well I seem to be the only one who opted to explore. I think my site is better (but in the imortal words of Mandy Rice-Davis, I would wouldn't I?)
My turnset was uneventful (a mini log follows) except for an intrusion by a couple of barb archers. I had bad luck with the first hut, but the secon enabled me to get to monarchy quicker than I was expecting. I should have put a mine on the wine hill insted of faffing around with so much irrigation, but no long term harm done.
4000 BC
Great starting position, but I suppose I better explore a bit.
3950 BC
Pop a hut for 25 gold
3800 BC
Possible city site discovered
3750 BC
Three specials including a whale and a wine hill - looking good.
3700 BC
Cardiff founded. Start researching alphabet
3600 BC
It's a 4 special site with some spice as well!
3500 BC
Alphabet -> code of laws
3200 BC
Get Horseback riding from a hut at the second attempt - advanced tribe the first time.
2950 BC
Code of laws -> ceremonial burial
2500 BC
Ceremonial burial -> monarchy
2000 BC
Monarchy -> bronze working
Attachment: rjmb2000.sav
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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I've compared the saves posted so far:
Grigor: Better luck in the next series. Too many disasters to overcome.
Peaster: Best progress on the Colossus, but will be too late to Monarchy to compare favorably. Some bad luck here with an unwanted tech.
RJM: Best site, which will pay off later on. Early Monarchy, too, which makes this save the best contender so far. Only problems are lack of anything good to build for a while and having Warrior Code hurts research a bit.
Myself: My library keeps my research equal to RJM's pace at 7 beakers a turn, and I have made good progress building the Colossus. No unwanted techs so far, either. I will get Republic earlier and will probably win the race to Trade.
So far I see it as a tossup between RJM and myself, but we must wait for Elephant and other players to reach 2000 BC.
I will attach my save again, using a more friendly file name that will not accidently overwrite the cu_b2000's of other players downloading it.
Attachment: solo2000.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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rjmatsleepers
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I think the save from Grigor is 3950 BC not 2000 BC. Can you re-post it? Are we expecting any other contributions? (I've just noticed that the start position has only been downloaded 4 times, so unless elephant is planning to join us, it doesn't look like there will be many others in the first round.)
As far as bronze working is concerned, I'm used to treating it as an off path tech on route to monarchy. Getting horse riding from the hut acted as the off path tech instead. The net result is discovering monarchy at the cost of no progress towards colossus.
As far as exploring with settlers is concerned, I think the non settler is too valuable to risk losing to barbs from hut. Of course, this does mean that you may miss some huts. (Actually AFAIK, there's no problem tipping huts before founding the city.)
RJM at Sleeper's
Last edited by rjmatsleepers on 29-03-2005 at 12:30
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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Well, here's mine:
4000bc: explore east along river
3950bc: Hut(14,44): Archer
3800bc: found CARDIFF at 4x
3600bc: ALPHABET; start CoL
3450bc: disband Archer for...
3400bc: Size1 Settler!
3200bc: 1st Warrior
3150bc: CARDIFF size 2
CODE LAWS; start Write (7t)
3000bc: join Size1Settler to CARDIFF size 3; chg 0.5.5
WLTED! chg 0.4.6 4t
2900bc: 27g,25b,4t
WRITING: start CerBur
2800bc: 1st Diplomat
2600bc: 19g,45b,6t
Tacitus MOST POWERFUL #7=Celts
CER-BUR; start Mon
2550bc: 25g,0b,20t@3b/60b
...Hut(28,40): 50g
2nd Dip
2300bc: 81g,40b,6t
...CARDIFF size 4
2250bc: 81g,50b,6t
MONARCHY (missed by 1-@#$%&*!!); start Bro
2100bc: 81g,22b,7t
REVOLT-MONARCHY! chg 0.3.7
2050bc: 81g,22b,6t@13b
WLTKD!
2000bc: 81g,35b,6t
CARDIFF is size 4, and is 3 turns from building a
Library (or RBing it immediately). A pesky Barb
Archer is lurking to the west, heading southward.
I did not execute my moves in 2000BC, as I've got
two unpopped huts each with a Dip next door. I'm
half-way to Bronze, having used my off-path tech
to get Writing (but declined the Republic path for
now). Along the way I roaded and mined the Wine,
too.
The save:
Attachment: el_b2000.sav
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).
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rjmatsleepers
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I will look at this save later today, but to judge by the log, it looks like the best so far.
RJM at Sleeper's
PS (I've now looked at the save)
It's not a difficult decision to make. The combined impact of monarchy and celebration give Elephant's save an overwhemling advantage. I like the use of writing as the off-path tech, giving us the no support dips to explore with. (And he remembered to mine the wine mountain  )
If anyone else can produce a better save than this, it will be very good indeed.
Last edited by rjmatsleepers on 30-03-2005 at 12:26
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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Agreed, Elephant's save leads in evey department. Very nice!
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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First of all, are we all agreed to a "best ball" approach - anyone want to continue with their own or another save?
Secondly, perhaps we should set some deadlines. I was thinking one round per week, is that acceptable? The initial post was last Friday, and one or two others might come it (SG was always late, as I recall - but did he express interest in OCC? how about LF?).
For the next breakpoint, I was thinking 1000BC, rather than 500BC. This gives a "snapshot" just BEFORE some major events usually happen, like first major wonder or switch to Republic (if you started with Monarchy), depending on how you sequence things.
As far as which save, mine lacks the progress toward Colossus of Peaster and Solo, and Solo's is especially interesting because of the combination of Colossus and early Republic. Solo might have gained some from an early WLTED. Still, I think he's done the best with the initial site (at least, of those who have posted so far).
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Elephant
First of all, are we all agreed to a "best ball" approach - anyone want to continue with their own or another save? |
The "best ball" approach suits me.
quote:
Originally posted by Elephant Secondly, perhaps we should set some deadlines. I was thinking one round per week, is that acceptable? The initial post was last Friday, and one or two others might come it (SG was always late, as I recall - but did he express interest in OCC? how about LF?). |
One round per week seems OK to me. Presumably we can be flexible. If someone says they intend to post a save, we can extend the deadline to accomodate them.
quote:
Originally posted by Elephant For the next breakpoint, I was thinking 1000BC, rather than 500BC. This gives a "snapshot" just BEFORE some major events usually happen, like first major wonder or switch to Republic (if you started with Monarchy), depending on how you sequence things. |
Again that's OK by me - we play through to 1000 BC.
quote:
Originally posted by Elephant As far as which save, mine lacks the progress toward Colossus of Peaster and Solo, and Solo's is especially interesting because of the combination of Colossus and early Republic. Solo might have gained some from an early WLTED. Still, I think he's done the best with the initial site (at least, of those who have posted so far). |
Do we wish to discuss strategy? For example in an EL game I would build MPE before Col - does that apply here? I assume our next technology target is trade? How about city improvements? We will need a temple and a market in due course (for growth in the WLTPD phase). At what point should we build them. Overseas trade routes will be good, but where does that put map making in our priority list?
So many questions 
RJM at Sleeper's
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Peaster
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Florida
Jul 2003
time: 00:27
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I propose that we settle on these rules, mostly collected from previous posts. If there are any objections, speak up now !!!
1) We are playing a best ball game. Within 2 days after the posting deadline, the players can talk and vote on the best save for the next turnset. [I prefer that we all use the same save, to promote better discussions].
2) For each set, the game leader [usually Elephant] will announce the results of the vote, how many turns to play, and a posting deadline [usually about 5 days after the vote].
3) Players can come and go as they please, but are requested to inform the group. Unless a player requests more time, we should not wait for them. For example, we should not wait for SG or La Fayette at this point since they have not expressed any interest in the game. They are welcome to play turnset 2, of course.
4) If there are any doubts about what is allowed, let's use the CFC GOTM rules.
5) Normally, each player should finish playing their turnset to the end of the last year [eg 1000BC] before posting a save, questions or comments. I do not feel too strongly about this though.
6) We can always change the rules later, as needed, to help the game go on.
************************************
As for the current situation, RJM, solo, and I like Elephant's save. I think Grigor is away for a few days, so we should not wait for his vote. Ele's save apparently wins.
Assuming this, I suppose [from reading the Paulicy] our strategy should be to finish BW and go for trade, construction and republic. After the library, we go for Colossus [and later... marketplace, caravans and a temple].
He recommends mapmaking whenever you can get it, but he doesn't recommend MPE.
Maybe we need a temple first ? Or will luxuries keep the city happy ? We should take our chances and pop huts. And explore for more huts and contact with the AI.
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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Most of Paul's OCC games were on small maps, where early contact with the AI made MPE less vital. Even so, I think it's been proven afterwards that MPE as the first wonder is usually best in OCC. In my own game here, I was hoping to get to Trade in time to switch from the Colossus to MPE. Then the plan was to trade Republic to all of the AI and use them as research helpers.
Elephant,
Yes, I forgot all about WLTED and should have used it. A bit rusty at OCC, I guess. Luckily for us, you didn't forget. We should be able to make good progress using your save.
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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I've had greater success with MarcoPolo as my first wonder. Getting relations started earlier permits alliances before the AI bump into each other and form antagonisms, plus it lets me pick and choose from AI techs. The AI rarely starts building Colossus, and if they do gifting them Masonry usually gets them to switch. Literacy is even better.
My usual tech path is Mon-Tra-Phi/Rep (last two depend on techs from huts and trades). I usually go for Cst right after the last pair, and often get it in trade from an AI by then. I sometimes sandwich Map right after Tra as an off-tech; definitely grab it first if I've just finished Marco Polo.
The three improvements we need soon are Library, Temple and Market. Library is almost done; we can then start Temple and consider a switch to Market if that looks like it will do better. I doubt Rep will be along by then, which is when Market really helps out.
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Elephant
I've had greater success with MarcoPolo as my first wonder. Getting relations started earlier permits alliances before the AI bump into each other and form antagonisms, plus it lets me pick and choose from AI techs. The AI rarely starts building Colossus, and if they do gifting them Masonry usually gets them to switch. Literacy is even better.
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I think you are the one who convinced us that Marco Polo first in EL games was also the best way to go.
While improvements have been made to OCC strategy since the Paulicy first appeared, most of its ideas have stood the test of time.
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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I’ve continued from Elephant’s save:
2000 hut – Mysticism, hut – Horseback Riding. Remainder of library is rushed since there is enough cash on hand. Two off path techs from the huts will slow down progress to Trade and will probably eliminate my chances of producing the best save by 1000 BC, but Mysticism did provide the Oracle wonder for accumulating shields towards MPE.
1950 Library, beakers now total 25, hut – Legion (NON), which means some AI lurk nearby
1850 Bronze Working, switch to Currency
1700 Mongols – peace, give tech, no alliance, and I will not trade techs since they offer Warrior Code with the other unknown tech probably being Masonry.
Germans – Trade for Mathematics (they also have Masonry, but I hold off on that), peace, alliance, no gift.
1600 Mongols expel my diplomat
1550 hut – Polytheism, now I will really be last to Trade, I think, but huts must be tipped since odds always favor a beneficial outcome.
1400 Currency. Trade not available, so Masonry is chosen next which I get immediately from the Germans. I also accept their offer of an alliance. No gift, though.
1350 Finally able to start researching Trade.
1250 size 5, luxuries adjusted upwards a bit.
1000 Trade will be discovered in two turns and MPE will come a few turns afterwards. Cardiff is size 5, produces 24 beakers, and advances are coming at a rate of every 10 turns now.
I may be last to Trade but am the first again to post a result!
Attachment: s1000.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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Since I was curious in making a comparison, and because I have plenty of time left, I decided to continue this game from my own save, too. I offer a brief log of what happened to my tiny Republic:
1500 Republic discovered, revolution
1450 switch in governments made, luxuries must be set at 40% to maintain happiness.
1250 size 4
1150 Currency. Now I’m noticing that the Colossus will be done before Trade is discovered, so I switch wonders to the Great Library. This will waste some shields, but I want MPE immediately when Trade is discovered.
1000 Trade and MPE are 4 turns away. Cardiff is producing 15 beakers, but advances are only taking 7 turns, since carrying costs are low.
There may be something to be said for not exploring and not tipping huts, as I have done in this game so far. Doing this avoids unwanted techs and leaves extra chances for the AI to tip more techs, gold and cities. More AI hut tipping opportunities will help improve the chances of getting more of value out of MPE when it is built.
Attachment: solo1000.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Peaster
I had a false start, with the first hut giving up BW (good!!) but the second one making a city. I replayed the turn about 30 times, but couldn't get BW again. So..
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At risk of teaching grandmother ...
The approach in EL games is to save just before popping the hut so that you can reload from the same point if the result is not legal.
RJM at Sleeper's
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26-03-2005 09:20
) That should allow you to join in any discussion or voting.
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