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rjmatsleepers
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I expect to be able to post an AD 500 save shortly. I'm very happy for Elephant to act as our leader.
I do get the impression we need to have a bit more time to play the turns. I'm learning a lot from this exercise, and I think it's important to keep as many people with us as possible.
So target to post saves by Friday and complete discussion by Monday suits me.
RJM at Sleeper's
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Peaster
I don't know whether to save vans for WoW's or use them for trade.. tried a little of both. |
So long as
a) I'm getting more money for vans than it costs me to rush them
b) there is still a free commodity,
I build the vans and send them to trade.
For most of this turnset it cost 50 odd to build a van and I got more than 100 for delivering it (even undemanded) so I churned them out. Building from scratch would have cost 125, so I wasn't convinced that was worth it. After gunpowder, starting from scratch would cost 210, but an overseas delivery of an undemanded freight brings in more than 200 so it's worth it, if you have a suitable way of transporting it.
RJM at Sleeper's
[Afterthought: It could be worth rushing from scratch in order to get the beakers, even if the delivery bonus is a bit less than the cost. The difference can be made up by a donation from our allies. However, I like to have enough gold to rush the city improvements, so I prefer to make a profit on my vans. At one point I tried an alternative destination to check the bonus (I'm not good at working it out!) but it was too small.]
Last edited by rjmatsleepers on 25-04-2005 at 11:57
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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My criterion for vans is to trade if they will bring in over 200 gold, since 50 shields costs that much when rushing the remainder of a wonder. The trade also adds beakers towards researching the current tech, so sometimes I'll take a lower payment because of this.
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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Let's make it Wednesday for the AD500 saves, then discuss till Friday. I've not read all the other posts, but play whichever save you like (or even two?) and we'll compare Wednesday the 27th thru Friday the 29th. Then we'll go AD500-1000 from Friday to the next Wednesday and discuss till the next Friday. How's that?
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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Elephant log from AD1 to AD500:
Pyramids in Leipzig; Ger change to HG (opening?)
20ad: CARDIFF size 18
...Germans exch Inv for UNIVERSITY, San for MATH
40ad: RB University
HG in Athens
80ad: CARDIFF size 19 (frantically irrigating)
100ad: HIDES caravan!
Germans and Mongols contact, make peace (whew!)
120ad: DEMOCRACY (immed revolt); start Astron
140ad: HIDES (whoo-hoo - max Taxes for RBing...)
160ad: CARDIFF size 20, drop WLTPD
...Dip makes embassy with Germans
HIDES
180ad: HIDES
200ad: Coal to Berlin(8,nd): 122g/b,+12TR
Germans dev Econ (figures)
HIDES
220ad: HIDES
240ad: HIDES
260ad: HIDES
ASTRONOMY; start Bridge
280ad: tough choice- use 6x Hides for COPERNICUS
300ad: HIDES
320ad: HIDES
340ad: HIDES
BRIDGE; start Chem
360ad: Greeks demand 150g to keep alliance -no, dissolve
HIDES
380ad: HIDES
400ad: GEMS! (oh well)
CHEMISTRY; start TheoryGravity
420ad: 1st Food
440ad: 2nd Food
460ad: 3rd Food
Chinese dev Gunpowder (and we've got Chemisty...)
THEORY GRAVITY; start Nav
480ad: 4th Food
500ad: 208g,276b,3t@276b,Inadequate/806b
My initial thoughts on this round went out the window when I discovered Hides back in supply on getting up to size 19. I'm not sure how that fits with Samson's formulas, but I was not going to make the mistake of letting them go again, even if it was only for a few turns. Turned out it lasted long enough to make 13 camels, but I felt I had to cash in 6 of them for Copernicus when I finally got Math from the tight-fisted Germans and could research Astronomy. I slipped a University in there at some point, and did a discovery-revolt to Democracy too. I stopped WLTPD at size 20 because I did not have enough irrigated land to continue. But at AD500 I've got Chemistry and the Chinese have Gunpowder, so Explosives and Engineers are just one more research away, once I get 4 more Food caravans for Newtons. I've still got several Hides and one Gems, which should probably go somewhere I can keep the supply unblocked. The critical road to Berlin finally has a bridge, and just requires about 4 more segments.
 Attachment: el_a500.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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Looking back at Solo's 1-500 round now, we were pretty close at AD1 but he was positioned to make much more out of the round than I was. Plus I digressed to make hay out of Hides. He has now run out of extra caravans, while I've got a bunch laid up, so I might make the time up in the next round. Overall, though, he blew me away this round.
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Elephant Turned out it lasted long enough to make 13 camels, but I felt I had to cash in 6 of them for Copernicus |
I think that's what made the difference, as I never had to commit a commodity caravan to a wonder. My payoffs to a different continent paid enough extra to make it more convenient to rush most of the shields in wonders using gold. The extra high-paying deliveries also boosted the pace of research. The road you've built may pay off, but it will be too late, I'm afraid.
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Grigor
I have had an annoying cold for two weeks and have had to sleep through my playing time. But I will be back for the next cycle. |
Hope you're better soon - spring colds are a real bummer. 
quote:
Originally posted by Grigor
In an OCC game, tech speed is more valuable than anything, so any amount you spend for beakers is worth it if you have the gold... |
Well yesish. If those beakers are used to learn a technology that would have been learned one turn later by one of the AI civs, you may not have gained very much. Also, the money may allow you to keep the research rate at 100% when without it you need to increase tax. If so, more money may give you more beakers in the long run. However, I don't think Elephant's save actually risks running out of money.
quote:
Originally posted by Grigor
I like Elephant's save, and especially his excellent opportunism. Those hides vans will pay off in the next cycle big time. |
I also like Elephant's save. The vans will pay off, with a lot of money and beakers. (But Elephant, why have you kept them back rather than delivering them?) Probably the delivery bonuses will make up for the smaller amount of gold and the fewer technologies in Elephant's save, but I'd like to see it played through just to make sure. I'd like to continue with my save for a while just to see how it pans out - I'm from Missouri 
RJM at Sleeper's
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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I anticipated the Hides being a short-term phenomena, so I tried to make one every turn I could until they ran out. They actually lasted longer than I expected, so I turned six of them into Copernicus and saved the rest. I need a ship to deliver them, but I was rushing food vans to prep for Newtons while researching ToG (which came before I was ready) so I delayed making the ship. Now I'm researching Nav while finishing the food vans, so I thought I'd wait till I could build a Caravel rather than a Trireme. I'm from New Jersey, where a better ship is always worth waiting for... as long as it goes somewhere besides New Jersey...
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Elephant
I anticipated the Hides being a short-term phenomena, so I tried to make one every turn I could until they ran out. They actually lasted longer than I expected, so I turned six of them into Copernicus and saved the rest. I need a ship to deliver them, but I was rushing food vans to prep for Newtons while researching ToG (which came before I was ready) so I delayed making the ship. Now I'm researching Nav while finishing the food vans, so I thought I'd wait till I could build a Caravel rather than a Trireme. I'm from New Jersey, where a better ship is always worth waiting for... as long as it goes somewhere besides New Jersey... |
Interesting ... we keep coming back to the sort of questions that crop up in Peaster's Theory Contest. In this case, by delivering to a different continent we will roughly double the pay-off, but the pay-off will come later and we will need to pay the cost of building and keeping the caravel (or whatever). Question for the jury: which approach has the greatest benefit? (I confess that I "take the cash and let the credit go" - ie I deliver as soon as I can rather than wait for a possible larger pay-out later.
RJM at Sleeper's
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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Another factor in favor for "deliver now", is that commodities must be delivered or used in order to unblock a new set of supplies. Sitting on commodity caravans (except for hides) will freeze supplies at least until the next city cycle turn when lists are updated automatically.
However, I still prefer to trade overseas if the payoffs are high enough. Any time you can get over 400 gold (very often), it's like getting two caravans worth for the price of one. For 600 gold, it's like 3 for 1, etc. If the delay is not that long, then the higher payoffs more than make up for waiting, since they yield more gold for building (and rushing) things and more beakers for quicker tech acquisition. A snowballing effect can be created and sustained.
Also consider that travel by sea is always at the maximum rate. Caravans can be dreadfully slow when moving over land on the same continent, not to mention the coy little AI blocking moves or their sudden demands when a caravan becomes vulnerable.
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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Have we had enough discussion to start the next cycle, from AD500 to AD1000? Pick the save you want to start from and proceed. Post by Wednesday (or Friday, Grigor?) and we'll discuss till next Sunday?
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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Pick the one you like. Solo's been working his save; I may move over to try it out.
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Peaster
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Florida
Jul 2003
time: 00:27
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I decided to play on from my own 500AD save, just for the sake of continuity. I don't have much feel for OCC yet, so I reverted to Paul's guide, and built ...
spoiler(highlight to read):
... Cope's + INC + 1 engineer. A supermarket was also on the agenda, but I didn't quite get to refrigeration. I was getting a tech every 2 turns towards the end, but the AI were too slow at research to help. I delivered about 4-5 vans, mostly out-of-demand hides, for an average bonus of about 140g. I am baffled when people talk about 400g payoffs. Takes practice, I guess.
Several times I asked the AI for a gift, and they gave me a bad tech, even though they had 100-200 gold. I wonder if that behavior is predictable.
Another dilemna at the end was - I had 2 settlers and an engineer with nothing useful to do until refrigeration (coming approx 1040AD). They could have started making a forest, but Paul seems to imply farmland is worth more at this stage.
I lost a NON-horse and a NON-Archer attacking a barbarian super-legion on grass. Just bad luck, probably. I always thought barbs were wimps on defense.
I have had 3 dips sitting around in Cardiff for about 1500 years. What are they for? They don't seem useful for exploring (at least on this map). I have used one for bribes, but why build three?
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Attachment: p_a1000.sav
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).
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rjmatsleepers
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I've downloaded Peaster's AD 1000 save. I hope to complete the next 500 years from my save today and then post it tomorrow.
RJM at Sleeper's
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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Onwards with the log to 1000 AD:
520 food, Combustion, gold(d) to Tlatelolco, 738g
540 oil, Atomic Theory, gems(d) to Teotihuacan, 756g
Mongols – give tech, share maps
Not a bad start with freights!
560 beads, Electricity
580 food
600 food, Electronics
620 Hydro Plant
640 food, Steel, Aztecs – give tech, trade maps
oil to Teotihuacan, 272g
Chinese – give tech, trade maps
Oil is not in demand yet, but the delivery above makes Teotihuacan start demanding beads. Usually it’s better to deliver quickly and work to re-establish another supply than to wait until a demand shows up, especially when it saves a turn learning a tech.
660 food, Automobile
680 Superhighways, Mass Production
Beads(d) to Teotihuacan, 884g (making the undemanded oil worthwhile!)
Germans – will not trade for Feudalism (building Sun Tzu’s), 100g gift
Now I will have to trade for many non-vital techs so carefully avoided earlier in the game. This will add two turns onto the length of the game and foul up my tech sequencing plans.
Aztecs – trade for Horseback Riding, Monarchy and Warrior Code
Babylonians – trade for Conscription, 150g
700 Mass Transit, Nuclear Fission
Must not let pollution interfere with progress.
720 Darwin’s Voyage, Feudalism, Refrigeration
I will not need Refrigeration, but Tactics was not available this turn. The refusal of the Germans to trade Feudalism inspires me to never again delay trading for wonder techs before AI minds become too busy. Darwin’s must be built now to use wonder bread again to refresh commodity supplies.
740 oil, Chivalry
760 beads
780 engineers, Leadership
800 engineers, Greeks & Germans – give tech, share maps
A few plains and grasslands will have to be converted to forests in order to get to 80 shields/turn to build SS Structurals.
820 food, Tactics, beads to Tenochtitlan, 573g
840 food, Machine Tools, oil to Tlatelclo, 579g
Finding or trying to create demand is no longer necessary, since there will be more than enough gold around to build a spaceship. It’s better to maximize the number of deliveries to this distant island.
860 Mobile Warfare
880 beads
900 food, Miniaturization
920 Offshore Platform
940 food, Computers, Greeks & Aztecs – give tech, share maps
960 Research Lab
980 food, Nuclear Power, dye(d) to Tlatelclo, 1080g, barb dragoon bribed, 102g
1000 food, Robotics, beads to Tlatelclo, 519g
Freights have been as lucrative now as caravans were earlier in the game. A spaceship will probably be launched in the mid 1500’s if things continue at this pace.
Attachment: s1000a.sav
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).
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rjmatsleepers
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Here is my log to AD 1000
AD 520 ToG-> chemistry.
AD 540 hides(u)-Leipzig 118. give physics to germans
AD 560 build final van for Cope's
AD 580 build Copes. Chemistry->steam engine. begin celebration. hides(u)-Leipzig 118.
AD 600
AD 620 Steam engine->magnetism. give steam engine to Germans and Greeks
AD 640 Finally kill barb archer
AD 660
AD 680 magnetism -> gunpowder. swap with Chinese for gunpowder. give gunpowder to Babs
AD 700 start researching metallurgy. give navigation to babs
AD 720
AD 740 Metallury-> explosives. give metallurgy to Germans and mongols
AD 760 give metallurgy to babs and magnetism to Mongols
AD 780
AD 800 explosives->electricity
AD 820 gold(u)-Leipzig 125
AD 840
AD 860 electricity->atomic theory
AD 880
AD 900 complete last van for Ike's
AD 920 build Ike's atomicy theory->conscription. swap with germans for conscription and give it to babs
AD 940 begin researching railroad. swap with mongols for railroad. and give it to babs, chinese and germans
AD 960 start researching industrialisation
AD 980 Industrialisation->the corporation. give industrialisation to everyone except aztecs
AD 1000 give democracy to aztecs, conscription to chinese and electricity to Mongols
RJM at Sleeper's
Attachment: rjma1000.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Peaster
I decided to play on from my own 500AD save, just for the sake of continuity. I don't have much feel for OCC yet, so I reverted to Paul's guide, and built ...
spoiler(highlight to read):
... Cope's + INC + 1 engineer. A supermarket was also on the agenda, but I didn't quite get to refrigeration. I was getting a tech every 2 turns towards the end, but the AI were too slow at research to help. I delivered about 4-5 vans, mostly out-of-demand hides, for an average bonus of about 140g. I am baffled when people talk about 400g payoffs. Takes practice, I guess.
Several times I asked the AI for a gift, and they gave me a bad tech, even though they had 100-200 gold. I wonder if that behavior is predictable.
Another dilemna at the end was - I had 2 settlers and an engineer with nothing useful to do until refrigeration (coming approx 1040AD). They could have started making a forest, but Paul seems to imply farmland is worth more at this stage.
I lost a NON-horse and a NON-Archer attacking a barbarian super-legion on grass. Just bad luck, probably. I always thought barbs were wimps on defense.
I have had 3 dips sitting around in Cardiff for about 1500 years. What are they for? They don't seem useful for exploring (at least on this map). I have used one for bribes, but why build three?
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spoiler(highlight to read):
I had similar experience (except that I haven't built an engineer yet, and I wasn't planning on building a supermarket). The larger van pay-offs come from delivering to a different continent, delivering to a destination with more trade arrows and delivering demanded goods. At least that's the theory - my pay-offs were even lower than yours  The other problem I have is that I can't free up supply.
I believe that in theory the AI should not give you a tech when they have more than 50 gold. Do you still have a save that you can post where you got a tech despite them having more gold?
I lost my non-archer as well; managed to keep my non horse though. As you say, just the luck of the draw.
I'm not sure about the diplos. It might be worth disbanding one or 2 for the shields. However I kept them. They don't cost support and may be useful to have in case something unexpected happens.
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RJM at Sleeper's
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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I have a business trip tomorrow and another next week that I have been spending too much time preparing. I am probably unable to post anything for the next week. I will try to continue my mediocre AD500 save but suggest you not wait for me on Sunday.
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Grigor
I have played from Elephant's save until 1000AD.
The caravans were helpful in getting two 1-turn advances, but I am not up to Solo's excellent trade work. Steel in 3 turns. Enough gold to build freights each turn. An oil freight to be delivered in the next 10 turns. Celebrating for a few turns to get up to full speed. |
A good turnset, Grigor, but I am puzzled by one thing. You have built railroads on some city tiles where (AFAIK) they give no benefit and left some tiles without roads where they would have given extra trade arrows. Am I missing something?
I think your position is the best of the three posted, but the differences don't seem to me to be overwhelming. I'm inclined to play on with my position for another set of turns.
RJM at Sleeper's
Last edited by rjmatsleepers on 09-05-2005 at 11:49
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24-04-2005 18:32
) at a cost of (roughly) 43 gold per van. I delivered 1 demanded van (236) and 3 un-demanded vans (should have been roughly 120 per van).
Attachment: 
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