05-04-2005 11:40									#31
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers At risk of teaching grandmother ... The approach in EL games is to save just before popping the hut so that you can reload from the same point if the result is not legal. RJM at Sleeper's

This grandma wants advice. I had heard this suggestion before, but reloading from the autosave feature seemed to work fine in my practice game. Now I know better.

I was hoping Ele would post a deadline for this round. Not sure if he meant Friday, or a week from the last 2000BC post, which would be Wednesday. Anyway, I hope he doesn't mind if I start discussing the saves.

The 4 saves so far look about the same to my untrained eyes. Grigor is closest to making a WoW, but seems a little behind in tech (10). Solo has the most tech (12.8), but is a little behind in improvements. RJM is in Republic, but is farthest from a WoW. Mine seems not quite as good as solo's (I have a temple, but lesser tech).

Question 1: My city won't celebrate until I raise lux to 50%. The other saves seem almost identical, but they celebrate with 30% to 40% lux. Is that because they are already celebrating, so they are getting more trade arrows?

Question 2: Was it a mistake to start changing rivered plains into forest, for more shields later on?

	05-04-2005 12:28									#32
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Peaster Question 1: My city won't celebrate until I raise lux to 50%. The other saves seem almost identical, but they celebrate with 30% to 40% lux. Is that because they are already celebrating, so they are getting more trade arrows?

In a monarchy you typically have to raise the luxury rate quite high to start the celebration and then the extra arrows can maintain the celebration at a lower rate. In your case, I think you weren't celebrating when your city last increased in population. I think Solo was, and so managed to maintain it with the extra arrows. I lost the celebration when I revolted and couldn't get it back.

quote: Originally posted by Peaster Question 2: Was it a mistake to start changing rivered plains into forest, for more shields later on?

I think mistake is quite harsh. There is not a lot for the settler to do. The rivered forest gives you the extra shield with the trade arrow. Irrigated plains will give you the extra food. While the city is still small, it may be useful to have the flexibility to increase production from time to time. But when the city gets into its WLTPD celebration growth, it will be useful to have all the possible food resources. Of course you may have time to convert it back.

I will comment on all the other saves once Elephant has had a chance to post his results.

RJM at Sleeper's

	08-04-2005 01:29									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Peaster I was hoping Ele would post a deadline for this round. Not sure if he meant Friday, or a week from the last 2000BC post, which would be Wednesday. Anyway, I hope he doesn't mind if I start discussing the saves.

As I said before, rounds are one week each from the first post, which was Friday. I hope to post something tonight after the kids go down. I don't mind discussion, and I apologize for being so late in the week. Spent most of today hanging off a ladder two stories up.

We could also discuss changing the next round to be 40 turns (1000BC to AD1), rather than 20 (to 500BC). Should be a bit more interesting as we seek to build wonders or start trade routes, maybe even WLTCD.

	08-04-2005 02:13									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

My vote is for 40 turns next round.

If Elephant produces the best save again this time, maybe the rest of us should spend a little more time on our own moves! If "delays" produce quality results, them I'm all for them.

	08-04-2005 08:02									#35
	Support Apolyton

OK, here's my contribution:

2000bc: 81g,35b,5t@17b/72b
[first question: pop huts or wait?
[check Civ2Plan: hut tech puts off Trade
[so NO HUTS till Trade
...1st Dip NE, 2nd back home or SW
Barb Archer heads south
1950bc: 81g,52b,5t
...RB Library 26g
...ARGH: two MORE huts found!
Library done
BRONZE: start Currency (Hor/Mas/Mys/Pot/War)
1900bc: 54g,0b,4t@25b/91b
Barb Archer back on western river
1850bc: 53g,25b,4t
Barb still heading north
1800bc: 52g,50b,4t
Barb going north
1750bc: 51g,75b,4t/84b
...chg 2.3.5
Barb north out of view
CURRENCY; start Trade! (Hor/Lit/Map)
1700bc: 55g,0b,7t@18b/112t
...chg 0.3.7 5t@25b
Chinese start GL (got Lit!)
Temple done
1650bc: 53g,25b,5t
1600bc: 51g,50b,5t
...PRB 1r 4g
Barb Archer reappears north of NW Dip!
1550bc: 45g,75b,5t
Barb heading SE now
1500bc: 43g,100b,5t/112b
...chg 3.3.4
TRADE; start Lit (Hor/Map/Mas/Mys/Pot/War)
1450bc: 48g,0b,9t@15b/126b
...CARDIFF supplies HIDES/Beads/DYE!!!
...chg 1.3.6 6t@21b
...Hut(29,23): Horse(NONE!!!) somebody northeast?
Barb southward
1400bc: 49g,21b,6t
...HORSE MEETS GERMAN SETTLER: Uncoop Emp: 0SP!,offer
Math for Tra(no),peace,Neut,gift Tra to Cord,Cur to
Enthus,CoL to Worsh,ally?protect selves,tribute?100g
...CELTS ARE STRONG!
...Horse goes north, sees roads (thought they were W)
Barb still south
1st: Dye (to Berlin!)
1350bc: 150g,42b,6t
Barb SW
1300bc: 151g,63b,6t
CELTS NOW INADEQUATE/BLUE!
...Hut(27,29): AT/AT/50g
...RB r1-5
...FoodBoxFull
2nd: Beads (to Leipzig)
WLTKD cancelled!
1250bc: 97g,87b,5t@24b
...CARDIFF size 5, only 18b?
...chg 5.5.0 to restart WL
Horse violates Leipzig - withdraw to CARDIFF
Barb ship west; Archer heading east
WLTKD!
1200bc: 105g,87b,126t
(back to STRONG)
...Hut(21,29): Horse(NONE)
...PRB r1-4, chg Grass to Forest for 10sh
Archer east, Barb ship north
3rd: Hides
1150bc: 40g,87b,126t,MOD
...Horse kills Barb Archer to west
Dip next to Barb ship, but it goes north
1100bc: 52g,87b,117t,INAD
...PRB r2-3
Barb ship NE around tip
1050bc: 14g,87b,117t,INAD
Babs start HG! (got Pot)
Barb ship coming SE!
4th: Hides
1000bc: 26g,87b,117t,WEAK

(hope you don't mind exhaustive logs...)

CARDIFF is size 5, working on caravans. It's making 10 shields, and set to 6.4.0 for taxes and WL. I've met the Germans to the north, found Leipzig and likely Berlin(in black), and 3 caravans are on their way to make trade routes. The NONE Settler is also starting on a trade road northward (a guess at this point; I'll test it out later).

Two wildcards are at work. One is a loaded Barb ship coming into the Celtic Bay to the northwest. They may be heading for a landing near CARDIFF, which could be an opportunity for a BarbLeader. There is a Dip west of CARDIFF and a Horse east, but the Settler and camels must also be protected. The next turn should see which way it moves.

There are also two German Settlers trying to come south near the northern river. If they can be influenced to settle there it might be an even better spot for trade routes. I've got a Horse and Dip in the Pheasant trees to keep an eye on things and see they might be pushed around.

There are 4 caravans in existence right now, so you also could recall the first three and build Marco Polo (it would take about 8 turns to get the furthest back, and CARDIFF could build one or two in that time). Also, I have not talked to the Germans in a while. They were Pathetic when last we talked, are Cordial now, and have at least Math (which means Masonry too). I've given them Tra, CoL, and Cur, but not Mon. They refused an alliance the first time, but might be more willing now that we are Weak.

Attachment: el_b1000.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

Last edited by Elephant on 08-04-2005 at 08:31

	08-04-2005 08:28									#36
	Put an end to popups!

Now that I've played I just ran through the other logs. Grigor's extreme luck with huts makes his look very impressive. MP in 1600? That is MarketPlace, right? If that is MarcoPolo I'm blown away. I had my fourth caravan only in 1000bc, and three of them I sent north. RJM got Republic but can't celebrate, and just started on caravans. Peaster has Map, War, Math & Mas and half a Wow, but not Trade yet. Solo got Myst, Hor, Math, PT, and Mas and is promising Tra and MP soon.

Hmmm...

	08-04-2005 10:39									#37
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I've downloaded Ele's save and will look at it later. So far, all of the saves have something going for them, so it might be a difficult choice. I'm fairly sure Grigor's MP is a market place, but his save is still pretty impresive.

40 turns next round is OK by me - AD 1 is a nice easy date to remember! What's the deadline for votes on which save to use?

RJM at Sleeper's

	08-04-2005 19:28									#38
	Put an end to popups!

Let's say 11pm EDT tonight (Friday) - just to keep to our weekly schedule. I think a lot's going to happen, but I'd be willing to go with 40. It will give wider divergence of the different games.

I'm still mulling over which 1000BC I like best. There's even something to be said for Solo's Republic option...

	08-04-2005 20:41									#39
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Peaster I propose that we settle on these rules, mostly collected from previous posts. If there are any objections, speak up now !!! 1) We are playing a best ball game. Within 2 days after the posting deadline, the players can talk and vote on the best save for the next turnset. [I prefer that we all use the same save, to promote better discussions]. 2) For each set, the game leader [usually Elephant] will announce the results of the vote, how many turns to play, and a posting deadline [usually about 5 days after the vote].

Elephant - Did you see this post? I am all in favor of moving on, but 6.5 days to play and 0.5 days to discuss/vote seems a bit unbalanced.

	08-04-2005 21:26									#40
	Got spare money?

I have looked at Grigor's save and it is a marketplace in Cardiff and not MPE. His excellent result is similar to Elephant's, except for the fact that Elephant has an extra caravan, and that Elephant has a temple instead of a marketplace.

My early Republic continuation was posted as a curiosity and was not intended as a contender. I think it has some hidden potential, so I will continue with it myself playing that game in parallel with the "official version". By 1 AD, I'll have a good idea if this strategy was viable. I think my city site may provide more lucrative trading opportunities. We'll wait and see.

RJM's early Republic is off to a better start than mine and is at the better site, but my hopes lie with a much earlier MPE, and the benefits that this can bring. At the moment I think RJM may be wasting beakers on learning techs that can be traded for with MPE, and has fewer shields than Monarchy players have to use for making caravans. If his city could celebrate now, he could make up the difference by having more citizens, but he can't.

	08-04-2005 22:57									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Per Peaster's reminder, let's postpone the official decision till Saturday night, but the next play period will be compressed till Wednesday at noon (EDT). Discussion will then proceed till Friday evening. How's that?

Celebrating Monarchy gets you the extra trade arrows of Republic along with the three supported units and martial law of Monarchy. I have avoided much Early Republic play for that reason. Getting into Republic requires more infrastructure, which seems to require either shields or gold, and even the extra gold must come from deliveries that have to be built with shields (Barb Leaders and huts are undependable).

My strategy in this part of the game has been to avoid extra techs, even if they are going to be useful like Math, and focus on preparing the city for WLTCD growth. Solo makes a good point that I have not gotten a MarketPlace yet. I left that for last because I figured I could rush it when the first or second caravan arrives, or when I get a couple alliance gifts right after exploiting Marco Polo. I'm wondering if the latter will be a viable strategy, though, if there are other civs on this continent. They tend to demand war with each other if they have made contact before you contact them. If I were to keep my save, I think now I'd recall the third caravan to the Germans and try to rush two more for an earlier Marco Polo. Grigor's is not bad in that light (I don't have a way to open it here), I'm wondering what he was producing since 1400 though. I'm not crazy about switching to MGE either, but that could be a "learning experience". Peaster and Solo seem to have too much tech and are both locked into wonder production without caravans, and RJM just started caravans.

	08-04-2005 23:53									#42
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: [SIZE=1] Celebrating Monarchy gets you the extra trade arrows of Republic along with the three supported units and martial law of Monarchy. I have avoided much Early Republic play for that reason.

Yes, I agree, and the advantages of an early and robust Monarchy worked well in EL games, too. Probably the best time to switch to Republic is just prior to when we love growth is planned.

However, some other advantages of early Republic:

1) We love growth may start sooner.

2) When Republic is gifted to the AI early enough, they may learn a surprising number of techs that can be picked up via MPE.

3) Monarchy is an "off-path" tech, in that it may never be needed. Other techs may also be skipped resulting in much lower tech carrying costs later in the game.

4) Once trade develops, the large payoffs received by a larger city may help accelerate a "slow" Republic start past a "fast" Monarchy one.

These advantages are more pronounced in an EL game, since a celebrating Monarchy in OCC produces as many trade arrows as a Republic.

	09-04-2005 10:57									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

I've looked at all the saves and it seems to me that they all have some good points. I'd like to propose that we each continue with our own save until AD 1. The differences in approach will then be more marked and a decision on which save to use will be easier.

RJM at Sleeper's

	09-04-2005 21:44									#44
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I am OK with either voting today or with RJM's proposal to play further, though I'd slightly prefer to vote [since RJM can experiment with his 1000BC save, a la solo]. I will tentatively vote for Grigor's save. I note that he will have as many vans as Elephant in a few turns.

Question 1) Could someone expound on Ele's comment about "too much tech"...? I though collecting tech [eg math] was a major goal in OCC and EL.

Q2) Is celebration always a good thing? I am comparing solo's save (with c) to mine (without c):

solo: 26 arrows - 10 for lux = 16 useful arrows
mine: 20 useful arrows (none for lux).

I think solo is producing 2 more beakers than me, but I am producing 6 more gold per turn.

Q3) What are the relative values of gold, beakers, shields and food in early OCC ? [I find it hard to plan without some rough idea about values].

For example, Ele set his science bar at zero (so why the library?) and I guess he mainly wants gold for now - correct? If so, he could set lux to 0, quit celebrating, hire a taxman, and raise taxes from 14 to 16 per turn. He'd lose approx 1 food and 2 shields, but would get an extra 9 beakers per turn. Would that be a good idea?

Q4) Why can't RJM celebrate his Republic?

Q5) Ele complained (mildly) about building a WoW without vans. I agree that it locks you in, but is that so bad? [I am still mainly following Paul's advice on this].

	10-04-2005 00:16									#45
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm for RJM's proposal.

1) Too much tech refers to tech carrying costs, which slow research. It's usually best to acquire a tech just before you really need it, to keep the total lower, especially when racing for a key early tech such as Monarchy, Republic or Trade.

2) A comparison will tell you if it is good at a certain time.

3) Beakers are needed early to get to key techs sooner. Once they are reached, gold is needed the most to start developing the city(s).

4) Load the save, try and see.

5) Depends on your situation. If you are delayed getting to Trade, like I was, there's nothing better to do than accumulate shields in a wonder. If you get Trade earlier, building caravans allows more flexibility.

	10-04-2005 02:20									#46
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Thanks, solo. I would like to pursue a few of these questions further, if you don't mind...

quote: Originally posted by solo 2) A comparison will tell you if it [celebration] is good at a certain time.

Do you have a systematic way to compare the options?
(eg a value system, such as 1 arrow = 1 gold = etc ) ? Celebration seems wasteful in our 1000BC saves, but probably I'm missing something.

quote: 3) Beakers are needed early to get to key techs sooner. Once they are reached, gold is needed the most to start developing the city(s).

I guess we have not gotten our key techs yet, so beakers are tops for now?

If food and shields are less important, why not hire scientists (or taxmen) once the city reaches size 5? Why not Xin, for example?

quote: 4) Load the save, try and see.

I did, and I see that he can't do it because of 1-2 unhappy citizen(s). But why is he having happiness problems that we are not ? The only difference I see is that he is in a Republic. I assume that you guys know the happiness rules better than I do, and there is some simple explanation of this.

quote: 5) Depends on your situation. If you are delayed getting to Trade, like I was, there's nothing better to do than accumulate shields in a wonder. If you get Trade earlier, building caravans allows more flexibility.

OK - with vans you can go for an earlier trade route, or take a time out for a marketplace. But if I am reading this thread correctly, MPE is a higher priority. So, I assume the flexibility usually isn't TOO vital.

	10-04-2005 10:43									#47
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Peaster Q4) Why can't RJM celebrate his Republic?

I believe the problem is that the effective luxury goods (from the tax setting) are limited to a total of 2 times the number of citizens - in this case 10. With 5 citizens you can get the first 3 to blue - the first one takes 2 and the other 2 take 4. The temple gets the 4th citizen to content, but until I discover mysticism, there is nothing to get the 5th guy away from red. One red guy equals no celebration. If you use an entertainer, the first elvis is your first citizen (ie the guy who starts content. It now takes 8 luxury to get 2 guys blue which only leaves enough to make number 3 content. The temple turns number 4 content, but now you can't celebrate because you don't have enough blue guys.

Shakespear's theatre would solve the problem, but we are a long way from that. Also if we weren't playing deity, we'd get an extra content citizen and it would work.

Anyway, that's what I think is happening.

As far as continuation is concerned, so far, Solo and I have voted for continuing our own saves. Peaster has tentatively voted for Grigor. If we do decide not to choose a save that we all continue from, I don't see any reason why Peaster shouldn't continue from Grigor's save rather than his own. The important thing is to get 5 saves from AD 1 to compare.

RJM at Sleeper's

	10-04-2005 10:58									#48
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Peaster Do you have a systematic way to compare the options? (eg a value system, such as 1 arrow = 1 gold = etc ) ? Celebration seems wasteful in our 1000BC saves, but probably I'm missing something.

There have been a number of discussions of this question and quite a few theories have been put forward. There is no universal agreement - particularly when you try to value shields, food, etc. It gets even more complicated when you try to take account of time - would you rather have 10 arrows now or 15 next turn. But within a narrow range, 1 arrow = 1 gold works. But if you have a market, 2 arrows = 3 gold. And so on.

At this stage the crucial question is the comparison with beakers and shields. If you actually don't want to discover the technology you're researching (because you expect to swap for it shortly) gold is more valuable than beakers. As far as shields are concerned, roughly 2 gold = 1 shield (because of "rush" buying). Because of this (I suspect) Ele and Grigor normally use the rivered grassland rather than the forest. They add 9 shields per turn and buy the 10th. However on the turn that will complete the van, they need 10 shields. Coincidentally, each has saved just before or just after completing a van and so in their saves, the forest is being worked rather than the rivered grassland.

RJM at Sleeper's

	10-04-2005 12:29									#49
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thanks, RJM. It is VERY late here, so I am going to read this over again tomorrow. I got so interested in OCC tonight that I started playing from my own 1000BC save. I guess I'll change my vote to your proposal, so that it wins, and hopefully I am not a criminal.

	10-04-2005 23:13									#50
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

SPOILER INFO AHEAD

This was the first turnset that I wasn't just following Paul's recipe, and the first time OCC really seemed fun. It helped to read over this thread a bit more carefully and to set a clear goal:

Goal: to reach size 12 ASAP. I need 3 techs, which will take 30 turns, without AI help. I need to finish a Wonder + 3 improvements, for a total of 470s, taking about 47 turns. Since I am short on shields, I will not try for early trade routes. With rushing and tricks, I hope to grow within 30 turns.

1000BC: I'll focus mainly on shields and gold. However, M.P.E seems better than Colossus, so I need to get Trade before Cardiff finishes Colossus. So, temporarily, I need beakers. I will replace one worker with a scientist, and will not celebrate. The food box is irrelevant.

775BC: Trade -> Cst, and switch production from Col to MPE. The scientist becomes a tax man.

750BC: Germans = allies and I get 200g [THAT never happens in EC games!] Also, a hut = 50g.

725BC: Finally, the forest on the river is complete.

700BC: M.P.E: I switch prod'n to mp/colo/aque, planning a sequence of IRB's to minimize costs. Now shields are king. I quickly ally with the Babs, pay 50g to the Aztecs, to get peace and Cst from them, and collect 3 maps. Now I can switch to Rep, and will get Mys + Seaf from the AI soon. Clearly, M.P.E is worth 200s.

The Greeks and Mongols are at war, and Greece is winning. This seems OK, since restarts are on, and the nearby Mongols are a potential problem for us.

575BC: Market. My dip bumps into some Mongols, who demand 150g. I decline, and they slay my dip. That dip had no clear business over there anyway. My science report indicates Republic in about 2 turns, but it is wrong - apparently that bar graph cannot be trusted. I used Civ2Beakers for a later turn, but it seemed off, too.

475BC: Colosseum -> Aqueduct.
450BC: Finally, Rep -> Mys (AI's have this). Revolution, and a turn of anarchy.
425BC: Republic! Lux = 30 and Tax = 0. I trade tech for Mys and Seaf (I expect to build a harbor, but this tech probably should be delayed). Bab alliance pays 200g.
375BC: Happy Civs = Ge/Ba/Az/Mo/Ce. Switch to Astro (Phil is not an option). I am not too familiar with WLTCD - it is rather fun!

350BC: Greeks ask for too much and declare war. I guess I should avoid AI contact when gold > 50.

325BC: Size 8, and finish the aqueduct. Switch to vans for the next WoW. Lux =40. Not sure what to do about the barb Archer/Leader combo to the NW. I decide to kill them on grass with my horse, before they get onto the mined wine tile [I have no phalanx, etc, for defense].

300BC: German Pyramids.
250BC: Babs get banks, but I will wait.

225BC: Size 12, Lux = 20. I am not sure if I can sell my colosseum or disband any warriors yet. I have a NON-horse, but can't rely on it as a militia unit. With my gold down to 45, I make peace with the M's and Gr's soon and get the Greek map.

150BC: Astro -> Phil. Both Babs and Gers have been at Phil a while, so I try to tech-bomb them a little to slow them down.
125BC: Az's get Eng. I am using 4 scientists and no taxes to get 57 beakers/t.
50BC: Babs get Phil first, but luckily they choose Medicine next! So, I will get that and Phil from them, and Eng from the Az's.

1AD: Next turn, we will get the 6th van, for either Cope's or Shake's. The Science report is blank, but we should get a tech to replace Phil [eg Sani] - about halfway done. Gold is quite low from rush buys. If we build Shake's, we should sell the colosseum and disband a warrior or two. The Settler has 1 charge.

This set was fun, and I hope playing so early doesn't cause problems. If Elephant or Grigor objects to RJM's proposal, I will withdraw this save.

Attachment: p_a1.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	12-04-2005 03:35									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Finally got back online after "visiting the parents" and leaving the vital laptop behind. Looks like you guys are doing OK. Play your save or one you like better, to AD1. We'll see who's done Wednesday night and go from there.

	12-04-2005 10:24									#52
	Inflate your Upload Space

I followed the approach used by Grigor and Elephant - ie switching to maximum tax - and it seemed to work well.

975 BC Move my diplos to explore.
950 BC Continue
925 BC Rush van. Peace and alliance with Mongols. Discover Konigsberg
900 BC disband warrior to start van and buy some shields.
875 BC buy a few more shields
850 BC build road towards Konigsberg
825 BC disband last warrior and part rush van
800 BC kill barb archer
775 BC Dye (D) to Konnigsberg for 88
750 BC rush 4th van for MPE
725 BC Complete MPE
700 BC get map making from Mongols. Get mysticism from Chinese, alliance, 100 gold. Start researching philosophy
675 BC Alliance with Babs, 150 gold
650 BC Alliance with Germans - no gold. Alliance with Aztecs - no gold.
625 BC 25 gold from Mongols.
600 BC Diplos get expelled
575 BC Philosophy->medicine->horseback riding. Get horseback riding from Aztecs. beads (D) to Konnigsberg 112
550 BC rush van
525 BC get banking from Germans
500 BC 25 gold from Chinese
475 BC construction from Babylonians; seafaring from Chinese.
450 BC 100 from Germans
425 BC Start aqueduct
400 BC 50 from Germans
375 BC 50 from Aztecs. Rush final van for Collosus
350 BC Complete Collosus, but notice that Leipzig no longer demands hides 25 from Babylonians
325 BC Astronomy and 25 from Germans. 75 from Aztecs. 25 from Chinese
300 BC Hides (u) to Hamburg 108
275 BC Engineering->sanitation
250 BC 100 from germans. 50 from Aztecs
225 BC Pottery from germans. 50 from Aztecs. 50 from Chinese
200 BC diplo expelled by greeks
175 BC 50 from Aztecs
150 BC 50 from Babs
125 BC 50 from Babs
100 BC complete Shakespear's theatre
75 BC start building a collusium (to switch to sewer system)
50 BC 50 from Germans
25 BC Sanitation->Bridge Building. 25 from germans. 50 from Chinese

Attachment: rjma1.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	12-04-2005 10:25									#53
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Peaster This was the first turnset that I wasn't just following Paul's recipe, and the first time OCC really seemed fun.

That's good. I've downloaded the save and will look at it, but won't post any comments until later in the week.

RJM at Sleeper's

	12-04-2005 19:57									#54
	Increase Your PM Length

Modification to deadline: I've got taxes to organize this week, which will eat into evening Civ time. How does play till Sunday, discuss till Tuesday sound?

	13-04-2005 09:16									#55
	Increase Your PM Length

Better for me.

Thanks.

	13-04-2005 10:23									#56
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Elephant Modification to deadline: I've got taxes to organize this week, which will eat into evening Civ time. How does play till Sunday, discuss till Tuesday sound?

That's fine with me ... but can I ask Peaster a question about his save - I don't think it will be a spoiler for anyone else.

Why do you have 2 trade caravans sitting in Cardiff? Are they on hold because you expect a better pay-off later? Are you planning to use them for a wonder?

RJM at Sleeper's

	13-04-2005 18:18									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sunday is OK with me.

RJM - I'm a little confused by your question. In my 1ad save, I have 5 vans in Cardiff, with a 6th coming next turn. I am planning to build Cope's or Shake's.

I am impressed by your 1ad save, which is clearly better than mine. So, I have replayed your moves from 1000BC to 375BC (when my PC crashed). Now I see that your 1000BC save - with Republic, a market, and Trade - is great for gold.

I guess I won't say more yet either, though I'd rather talk now before I forget things. We can label our posts as spoiler material, and people who haven't posted yet should wait to read them. Does that sound OK?

	13-04-2005 20:40									#58
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You guys could try the "hidden text" trick - I can buzz over the numbered logs easily, but that kind of discussion should really wait or be harder to notice.

	14-04-2005 09:58									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant You guys could try the "hidden text" trick - I can buzz over the numbered logs easily, but that kind of discussion should really wait or be harder to notice.

Sorry - I didn't think there was anything in the discussion that would be a spoiler for anyone else, but I'll try to keep to the rules in future.

RJM at Sleepers

	14-04-2005 10:11									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster RJM - I'm a little confused by your question. In my 1ad save, I have 5 vans in Cardiff, with a 6th coming next turn. I am planning to build Cope's or Shake's.

Possible spoiler text below.

I was distinguishing between the food caravans and those which are goods. I thought that the non-food vans might be intended for delivery to another city. Actualy I realise now you said what you intended to do in your log, so mine was a silly question. I suppose what threw me is that my second wonder is usually colossus and you already have enough vans for that. I'd better not make any further comments.

RJM at Sleeper's