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Peaster
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Florida
Jul 2003
time: 00:27
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RJM - I think Ele was responding to my question, rather than criticizing our posts [but I could be wrong]. In the past two better ball games, people were much less careful about spoiler info than you and I have been.
Here is SG's explanation. His slash went the wrong way, so I have corrected that and it seems to work.
(spoiler)
text
(/spoiler)
but with square brackets of course.
My attempt:
spoiler(highlight to read):
This is a big secret
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Last edited by Peaster on 17-04-2005 at 08:34
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Peaster
Here is SG's explanation. It didn't seem to work for me, but maybe I did something stupid.
(spoiler)
text
(\spoiler)
but with square brackets of course.
My attempt:
[spoiler]
This is a big secret
[\spoiler] |
The following seems to work reasonably well. Insert your spoiler text in a different colour - selected from the list - then change the colour to #F8F8F8. For example:
This was red but I changed it
RJM at Sleeper's
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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I have continued from my early Republic game, which should make for an interesting comparison with Monarchy games at the 1 AD checkpoint. Here is the log:
900 Trade. (Finally! Now it’s time to make some hay!)
875 Marco Polo’s Embassy.
Techs that the AI have that I lack are:
Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Masonry, Monarchy, Pottery, Warrior Code, Construction, Polytheism, The Wheel, and Mysticism.
All were expected with the possible exception of Construction, which I considered a bonus. An analysis of the AI tech lists suggests some immediate trades and gifts will be needed to help steer their research. I also want maps to see if any AI are close enough for profitable overseas trade routes. I knew the original starting position would produce a strong supply of hides and wanted to take advantage of this fact before trying to grow my city much further. (Hides supply diminishes rapidly with city growth). Each of the AI will get Republic and prerequisites for other techs I hope they are able to learn on my behalf. I want to avoid all non vital techs, and consider Monarchy and even Ceremonial Burial to be on this list. For the next wonder I plan on Shakespeare’s Theater, to get Cardiff growing in order to boost caravan delivery payoffs. I will research the techs the AI fail to pick, using trades to pay for them and set taxes high as possible for more gold.
Germans – trade for Map Making, give tech, peace, alliance, trade maps, 150g gift
Greeks – give tech, peace, alliance, trade maps, no gift
Chinese – give tech, peace, alliance, trade for Mysticism and The Wheel, 50g gift
Babylonians – trade for Construction, peace, alliance, trade maps, 50g gift
My small size and low power rating allows many alliances and 200 gold in initial gifts. Once an alliance is formed, one must wait another 8 turns before being able to ask for additional gifts.
850 I was learning Map Making, but having traded for that, I switch research to Philosophy. Trireme produced to conduct trade with the Chinese and Greeks, who are on nearby continents.
Mongols – give tech, peace, alliance, trade maps, no gift
825 gems,
Aztecs – they demand gold, so I refuse and they declare war.
800 Aztecs – give a tech for peace, another for an alliance, trade maps, no gift. So much for the war!
Babylonians – give tech, share maps (they were learning a tech I already had)
775 hides
725 hides, gems(d) to Canton, 208g and the fun now begins
700 beads, Philosophy, Engineering, size 5
650 hides
625 hides(d) to Canton, 192g
These trade routes will also help boost Chinese research besides making me rich.
600 hides, Medicine
575 Germans – give tech, 75g gift
550 hides,
Chinese – give tech, trade for Iron Working, 25g gift
Germans – trade for Mathematics, 50g gift
525 Babylonians – give tech, 25g gift; Greeks – give tech
500 Diplomat, must interrupt caravan production since some barbs have appeared.
Chinese – trade for Bridge Building, 25g gift
475 Babylonians – 50g gift
450 dye, Babylonians – give tech
425 beads(d) to Ashur, 215g
Now Cardiff has 3 trade routes and I am about ready to start the city growing
400 hides, Sanitation
Germans – trade for Seafaring, 100g gift
Greeks – trade for Astronomy, 150g gift
hides(d) to Nineveh, 312g
Chinese – 50g gift
375 gems, Aztecs – trade for Banking, 100g gift
350 food, hides(d) to Shanghai, 232g
325 Shakepeare’s Theater, we love begins, University, size 6, hides(d) to Shanghai, 256g
I did not have to build a temple or a colosseum in this game.
300 size 7, barbs land too close for comfort, dye(d) to Shanghai, 368g
275 aqueduct, size 8, barb legion bribed, 82g. It is used to kill the other legion and its leader. They are too close to Cardiff to risk playing any games.
250 size 9, Chinese – give tech, share maps
225 gems, size 10, hides(d) to Shanghai, 368g
Germans – give tech, 50g gift
200 hides, size 11, Chinese – trade for Economics, 25g gift
175 size 12
150 sewer system, size 13, Theory of Gravity
125 gold, size 14, gems(d) to Canton, 537g
100 size 15
75 harbor, size 16
50 size 17, Chinese – give tech
25 university built, size 18, Chemistry
1 A.D. food, size 19, hides(d) to Canton, 504g
Growth just took off due to lucrative trade. The Colossus is next and will be rushed. I have all of the pre-Renaissance techs (or can trade for them) and am currently researching Invention (which I can trade for), but once that is learned the gravy train will stop, so research has been nerfed until trade revenues dry up.
I plan economic city improvements next, and then will add the scientific wonders, which should be in place by the time Cardiff is maximum size.
Hides has really made this city a powerful trader, and it is mainly for this reason that I chose to found here rather than wander to the site with better specials. It turns out that site also produces hides, but I did not know this at the beginning of the game.
 Attachment: solo1.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
Last edited by solo on 16-04-2005 at 17:41
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by solo
I have continued from my early Republic game, which should make for an interesting comparison with Monarchy games at the 1 AD checkpoint. |
I've downloaded the save - it looks very good on the basis of the log
quote:
Originally posted by solo
Once an alliance is formed, one must wait another 8 turns before being able to ask for additional gifts. |
What's the status of this statement - established fact? - rule of thumb? - hypothesis? And is it wait 8 turns every time? (My recollection is that I've been able to get gifts more frequently than that, but I may be thinking of tribute.)
Anyway I will look at the save and post more comments tomorrow.
RJM at Sleeper's
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
What's the status of this statement - established fact? - rule of thumb? - hypothesis? And is it wait 8 turns every time? (My recollection is that I've been able to get gifts more frequently than that, but I may be thinking of tribute.)
RJM at Sleeper's |
I ran a test on gift giving, and except for the turn the alliance is formed, no gifts will be given until after 8 turns. Tribute is different, since once you outnumber the AI on their continent, tribute can be demanded at any time and collected. There are two other requirements for receiving a gift of gold after the 8 turn waiting period:
1) Your power rating must be lower than that of the AI you are asking.
2) The AI must have more than 50 gold. If <50 gold, you will receive a tech.
Also keep in mind that the lower your own power rating, the more likely it is that the AI will form alliances, so it is best to establish them as soon as possible after contact has been made and before your own city grows that much.
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rjmatsleepers
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Solo, I've had a look at your save. A very good turnset. I was very impressed with the way you cherry-picked the technologies. I suspect that in the past I may have missed numerous opportunities to avoid masonary. The number of van deliveries you made or have on route is also very good.
The save got me thinking about a number of things.
A) City location. It's water under the bridge now, but I couldn't help noticing the extent to which a location with more trade specials and rivered tiles makes up for inexpert game play.
B) Market or no market. I was surprised you didn't build a market. Not having a market means the luxury level for celebration is higher. Perhaps you could tell us more about this decision.
C) Shakespear before Colossus. Building Shakespear's theatre early enabled you to get the WLTPD growth phase going early and reaching size 19 gives additional trade arrows. But not having Colossus costs trade arrows. The size 19 city seems to generate about half a dozen extra trade arrows compared with a size 12 city with Colossus. However, the fewer trade arrows per citizen (and the lack of market) means that the luxury level to celebrate is much higher. Hence tax (or beakers) suffer during the growth phase. For me that tips the balance in favour of building Colossus before Shakespear's theatre. However, perhaps the picture looks different if you are deriving most of your gold and beakers from van delivery.
I hope you are planning to play through to AD 1 with the other city location. That would be another interesting comparison.
Are we expecting contributions from Elephant and Grigor?
RJM at Sleeper's
Last edited by rjmatsleepers on 18-04-2005 at 11:39
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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RJM,
Normally Masonry is needed, since it is a prerequisite for Math and Construction, but the AI were able to learn these techs in time for me to skip Masonry.
You are right about a market, which I should have built earlier, perhaps a better choice than a university at 25 BC. That was a mistake on my part. However, I could afford 50% luxuries since I was getting so much gold from my early trades. Excellent income can result in some sloppy play.
With Shakepeare's first I did not need a temple or colosseum. With a good group of city tiles being sea tiles, quick city growth provided as many, or more, trade arrows than having the Colossus first, I think. To get to size 12 with the Colossus first, the city still must grow and would need more city improvements than I used. In any situation, though, I think establishing trade routes as soon as possible is the best way to boost a city's trade arrows.
I did not play on from the other turnset, because my result was not as good as Elephant's or Grigor's.
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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I will be posting VERY late this evening - I hope...
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rjmatsleepers
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At the moment, I think that all the saves have something going for them. Of course Elephant's save may be overwhelmingly good. If Ellie's save is not outstanding, it seems to me that we may as well continue from whichever AD1 save we want to - that gives you a free reign Grigor, although if you choose to continue from your own position, I think you should post it.
How long do we play for?
RJM at Sleeper's
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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I'm behind - I've made it to 500BC, with CARDIFF up to size 12, researching Sanitation. Go ahead with Peaster's suggestion - play to 500AD by Sunday, then we'll talk. If I can catch up I'll join you. I'm doubtful I can equal Solo's AD1 position - I've got six alliances, but not getting enough gold for the necessary infrastructure (I need a Bank and Sewers soon). I used a couple Hides caravans for a wonder rather than delivering them, but then my unblocked commodity changed to Coal. Perhaps I should have stayed small and milked things more before growing.
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Peaster
IMHO this kind of game is more fun with some agreed-upon rules - about deadlines, voting, choice of saves to use, spoiler info, etc. I consider my save and RJM's to be legal, and RJM's is far better, so I will start from his save.
RJM - How about 25 turns (500AD) in 5 days? |
Play to AD 500 and post before Sunday is OK by me, but I'd like to encourage participation so if Elephant is planning to continue his current effort beyond 500 BC, I'm willing to wait for him. However, I am concerned that things might get a bit fragmented. I'm very comfortable with Solo continuing his effort and posting alternative saves at the agreed dates - it makes an interesting comparison. Grigor has implied he doesn't want to continue his own position - I hope he is willing to pick up one of the posted saves and continue. I'd like to keep all 5 of us in the game as long as possible - as well as encouraging any newcomers who are lurking to join in.
RJM at Sleeper's
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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I have continued my game up to 500 AD, and the log follows:
20 gems, size 20; dye(d) to Beijing, 540g
40 The Colossus, (wonder bread unblocks another commodity supply)
60 dye, size 21
Growth must stop until the switch is made to Democracy and when the trireme has finished delivering caravans.
80 Marketplace; Babylonians – trade for Democracy, trade maps
100 Bank; gold to Beijing, 420g
120 Stock Exchange; Germans – give tech, share maps, 100g;
gems(d) to Canton, 522g; revolution
Now after a nice run of commodity trades, only food is available.
140 food, government to Democracy; Aztecs – give tech, share maps
160 food
180 food
200 food, dye(d) to Shanghai, 560g
Babylonians – trade for Invention, trade maps
Chinese – trade for Navigation, trade maps
Aztecs – give tech, trade maps
Greeks - ditto
The final caravan is delivered, so it’s time to trade for Renaissance techs and race to Corporation and freights. I’ve got plenty of gold and will rush the two scientific wonders next. Using wonder bread for them will re-establish a few commodity supplies again.
220 Copernicus
240 food, we love resumes, Physics
260 Isaac Newton’s, size 22; Germans – 50g; Babylonians – 50g
280 Steam Engine, size 23
300 size 24
320 Railroad, size 25; Chinese – trade for Magnetism; Babylonians & Germans – 50g each
340 size 26
360 Industrialization, size 26; we love ends; Mongols – give tech, share maps
Now I have 822 beakers at 100% science, only 18 short of getting the next tech in one turn. If this site had had another trade special such as silk, I might have had a string of one turn advances at this point. As it was, I came very close.
Cities based on the other site that are able to establish a road and/or rail bonus to an AI city may have a better shot at doing this. We’ll wait and see if anyone is able to manage this.
380 Factory
400 The Corporation; transport; Babylonians – trade for Gunpowder, share maps
420 gems
Now its off and running again with some freight commodities.
440 gold, Refining
460 food
480 food, Explosives
500 Babylonians – trade for Metallurgy, 50g gift
Income from trade has allowed me to rush something every turn. Now we’ll wait and see how long this can be kept going using freights.
Attachment: so500a.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
Last edited by solo on 24-04-2005 at 18:33
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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Here's my 1000BC to 500BC abbreviated log:
1000bc: contact Germans, alliance, gift 25g
...bring back 3rd caravan
950bc: contact Mongols,gift to Enthus,alliance,gift MAPS
Hides
875bc: Hides
850bc: 4x Hides for Marco Polo
825bc: Marco Polo Manipulation-
- Chinese: exch for LIT, REP, alliance, sympathy
- Babylon: exch for MYST, alliance, 150g
- Aztecs: dem 50g for peace, gift to Enthus, alliance, 50g
- Greeks: demand 100g=WAR
- Germans: gift Rep, Map, sh maps, sympathy
- Mongols: gift Rep
800bc: Hut AT/AT/Elephant
...RB Market
...get Mong, Bab, Chi maps
775bc: disband Warrior for Hides
...exch Aztecs for CONSTRUCTION
750bc: Dye to Berlin 184g/b, +4TR
...gift Maps to Aztecs
...Mong 50g, Ger 25g
...disband 2nd Warrior for Hides
REVOLT - REPUBLIC
725bc: RB 3rd Hides
WLTCD
PHILOSOPHY; freebie MEDICINE; start Bank
700bc: disband Ele for Coal?
...Mong 25g, Aztecs maps
(Germans dev Cst, Chinese dev Philos - not gifting)
675bc: CARDIFF size 6
...4x caravans for COLOSSUS
650bc: CARDIFF size 7
...Aztecs exch for WHEEL
...Beads to Berlin 207g/b,+6TR
...disband Horse for Colosseum
Greeks make peace with Mongols
BANKING; start Eng
625bc: CARDIFF size 8
...gift Greeks to CF, peace, alliance, 75g
...Chinese 75g; Babs 25g, Aztecs 25g
...disband Dip for Aquaduct
600bc: CARDIFF size 9
575bc: CARDIFF size 10
Coal caravan
Babs + Aztecs dev Seafaring
550bc: CARDIFF size 11
...Chinese 25g
525bc: CARDIFF size 12
1st Food caravan
ENGINEERING; start San
500bc: Chinese 25g
And the save:
Attachment: cu_b500.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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And here is 500BC to AD1:
475bc: Babs 25g
Greeks dev Eng (still not checking!)
450bc: Chinese 25g
2nd Food
425bc: Babs 50g
400bc: Aztecs 50g
SANITATION; start Horse (only one - #20 too)
375bc: Greeks 75g
GL in Beijing
another Barb landing NW
3rd Food
325bc: Chinese 50g, Germans 75g
finish Dip in defenseless CARDIFF
275bc: 4th Food
225bc: bribe Barb Archer to try for Leader
5th Food
200bc: 6x caravans for SHAKES, frees Coal again
175bc: Greeks 150g, Babs 50g
WLTCD
150bc: Aztecs exch for SEAFARING
...RB Sewers
125bc: CARDIFF size 13
...Chinese 50g
...RB Harbor
100bc: CARDIFF size 14
...Aztecs 50g; Chinese exch for HORSEBACK
...RB Bank
restart Invention (minds to busy for Iron or Math)
75bc: CARDIFF size 15
...Germans 50g
...irrigation lagging, RB Settler
Germans dev University!
50bc: everyone's building Wonders!
25bc: CARDIFF size 16
Coal again
INVENTION; start Dem (@#$%&*!!!)
AD1: CARDIFF size 17
And the save:
Attachment: cu_a1.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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In comparison to Solo's progress before AD1, I should have stayed small longer and used the Hides caravans for deliveries. The danger there is that I might lock in early higher base trade routes with overseas cities, preventing the potential Road/Rail bonus with Berlin in the AD years. Using my spare Settler to build part of the road to Berlin also kept me from irrigating and roading around the city radius in preparation for the Shakes growth above size 12. When I finally realized how behind I was I had to pop out another settler to help it along. I also used the 3rd commodity repeatedly for Wonders rather than getting an early enough 3rd trade route, cutting my trade arrows and likely leading to a blocked commodity after I grow over size 20.
Overall, I'm not doing really bad, just way off my usual decent OCC game, with a tough shot at breaking a 1500 landing.
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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Some thoughts on some earlier exchanges:
I've always seen the 8 turn wait after an alliance is first made. Try to get something out of them before you break contact, then mark the 8 turn date and make sure they are Cordial or better before asking. If they don't give anything, gift them a tech and lay off a turn or two.
The rule about Power Level is usual but NOT absolute - I have gotten occasional gifts out of AI civs that are lower than me. They need to be Enthus or Worsh, and asking right after a tech gift sometimes works. But it is still the exception rather than the rule.
Another thing to remind everyone is that milking alliances is MUCH easier playing Classic/2.42 rather than MGE...
Shakes vs Colossus: Several factors should be considered, including trade available from terrain, alliances that might produce gold, tech and wonder pressure from AI, and trade routes. The two good city spots in this game have some rivers and some ocean (in opposite proportions, it seems). Ocean pays off once Seafaring and a Harbor are in place, which can be earlier if you can get it from an AI; rivers usually flow through grass (here there were more rivered plains, which I though a bit unusual) so the extra food is available without irrigating. I prefer rivers because later in the game SuperHighways will add extra trade arrows due to the bridges that ocean tiles cannot match. Rivers also act as roads for movement and trade arrows, and give defensive bonuses. In this game the Greeks had Iron when I built Marco Polo, but I was so tight on getting Sanitation before the 20th tech that I had to forgo Iron, then the only AIs with it started building wonders and refused to exchange. Very frustrating. Anyway, if you can get the trade routes in early enough (cannot over-emphasize how important that is to having unblocked commodity supplies after you grow your city!) you should have enough trade to provide luxuries for WL celebrations without Colossus. Solo's achievement of this without even a Temple is noteworthy. The AI usually go for Pyramids, Great Library, and Hanging Gardens first, neglecting Colossus and Lighthouse if they have any other unbuilt wonders. I've often looked over their tech list and gifted them something like Engineering in order to keep them interested in more advanced wonders. Beware, though - if another AI builds KingRich they could suddenly switch to and complete Colossus if they are already beyond 200 shields. Colossus is a bigger boost for bigger cities, so I try to get it in at the latest when I'm in the size 8-12 range. Personally, I prefer to build Shakes when I am getting close to Sanitation, unless I am getting competition from the AI over Astronomy and Copernicus.
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rjmatsleepers
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I've downloaded Ellie's AD 1 save and will look at it later today and post comments sometime tomorrow. I've also downloaded Solo's AD 500 save, but I'll try to avoid looking at it for the moment. The log looks very impressive. I wonder what he could have done with the other site. Solo, can we encourage you to pick up one of the 1000 BC saves and play it through to AD 1?
RJM at Sleeper's
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Elephant
I've always seen the 8 turn wait after an alliance is first made. Try to get something out of them before you break contact, then mark the 8 turn date and make sure they are Cordial or better before asking. If they don't give anything, gift them a tech and lay off a turn or two.
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I looked back at my log to AD 1 and it seems to support the initial wait period. However, after that wait there doesn't seem to be any limit on the frequency with which you can get gifts. BTW, has anyone worked out the significance of the negative replies? I assume that "We sympathise", etc suggests it's safe to keep asking. Is it known under what conditions the AI will ask for a gift if you approach them? Similarly when will they break off the alliance if you ask for a gift?
RJM at Sleeper's
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
However, after that wait there doesn't seem to be any limit on the frequency with which you can get gifts. BTW, has anyone worked out the significance of the negative replies? I assume that "We sympathise", etc suggests it's safe to keep asking. Is it known under what conditions the AI will ask for a gift if you approach them? Similarly when will they break off the alliance if you ask for a gift?
RJM at Sleeper's |
After the waiting period you can ask for a gift every turn and will get some gold as long as they have it and as long as you have not climbed too much higher in power (the amount of gold you have is one factor making up your power rating). However, asking too often may get you shut off for being a pest. I don't like to overdo it because I want to make sure the lines of communication remain open for tech trading and gifting opportunities, which I don't want to have fouled up for being too chatty.
I agree with Elephant that the power rating rule is not definitive, but is more like a good "rule of thumb", but it must also be remembered that relative power ratings must be updated before their effect becomes apparent. I suspect that sometimes the rating that is displayed may not be what is currently in effect due to the sequence in the way things are programmed.
I have not run any exhaustive tests, but in general, the tenor of the AI responses depend on their attitude towards you. As long as you keep them happy enough with tech gifts, they will remain faithful and undemanding, at least until the late stages of the game when Space Flight is discovered. After that they all can make demands and even a worshipper may turn on you, if he has not been made that way quite recently.
I have also looked at Elephant's 1 AD save, which is ahead of mine in many respects, but behind in techs. I got some good boosts towards learning many techs during that turnset because of my caravan deliveries, whereas Elephant is ahead in the race to city improvements and wonders, since I lack the Colossus, a marketplace, bank and stock exchange. However, I made up for those deficiencies quickly afterwards by benefiting from additional caravan deliveries.
Without the aid of a station city, it may take too long to accrue much benefit out of the road from Cardiff to Berlin. Elephant's bad luck in trading for AI tech has also frustrated his very promising start. Even so, if I were to try my hand starting from his 500 BC save, I suspect I would not be able to do any better than either of us have by 1 AD, because of the superior trading opportunities offered by my choice for the city site.
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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I have seen two phrases the AI uses in negative responses to requests for gifts: "sympathy" and "patience thin". When I get the first one I wait an extra turn and try again. When I get the second I gift an extra tech, wait another turn and try again. If I don't get anything twice in a row I give them a 4-5 turn wait and try again. I usually ask every other turn if their treasury is above 50g, unless I'm sitting on a lot.
Another thing that might "badger" them is asking for maps every turn, which I do when I'm tracking a Transport or Engineer I want to bribe. If it is done one every 3-4 turns it is not so much a problem.
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rjmatsleepers
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I've had a look at Elephant's save. It seems the best of the three that use the 4 special site. However, there is a downside that the German cities are further away - no conveniently located city at the end of the road north! So vans take longer to arrive and the trade bonus is more difficult to obtain.
quote:
Originally posted by solo
If I were to try my hand starting from [elephant's] 500 BC save, I suspect I would not be able to do any better than either of us have by 1 AD, because of the superior trading opportunities offered by my choice for the city site. |
The trading from your choice of city has been really impressive. The trading has certainly made up for the reduced number of trade arrows from the city site. Will this continue for the rest of the game, or will the additional arrows from the other site eventually prevail?
Incidentally, without the benefit of black clicking, this appears to be a matter of luck. There might have been an island civ north of the 4 special site while the continent might have continued a long way south of the starting site. Or is there more to it than this?
Anyway what next? Peaster, have you played any turns yet? Shall we (except Solo) play on from Elephant's save?
RJM at Sleeper's
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
The trading from your choice of city has been really impressive. The trading has certainly made up for the reduced number of trade arrows from the city site. Will this continue for the rest of the game, or will the additional arrows from the other site eventually prevail?
Incidentally, without the benefit of black clicking, this appears to be a matter of luck. There might have been an island civ north of the 4 special site while the continent might have continued a long way south of the starting site. Or is there more to it than this?
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My choice of city site depended on the following factors:
1) Hides was in strong supply, as I mentioned earlier. By itself, this was enough to convince me to set up here.
2) The only thing this site lacked was a forth trade special, but this is not much of a handicap, given the fact that ALL the other tiles were good trade arrow producers.
3) Wandering wastes a few turns that could be used instread for early research and building of roads, etc.
4) I had access to the sea, and did not know if the other site did. I needed to be able to build a trireme to trade with other continents. In the vast majority of games, another continent with AI is often within easy reach of the starting position, so black-clicking is not necessary to confirm this. MPE finds the best trading partners very easily. Any bad luck with continent positioning would have also been effect for the other site.
5) The wildcards for this site were quite impressive and useful to me as a trader. Gems was the supply wildcard. Gems caravans pay a very good bonus and they are almost always in demand in the early part of the game. After 32 techs are acquired, the commodity wildcards for this site look even more promising, since they are going to be coal for supply and demand. Since they are the same, then coal will become the demand wildcard and oil will replace coal as the secondary supply wildcard later on when frieghts are in play. Oil provides the best payoffs and when a large AI city is given many techs plus Automobile, it is very likely to be demanding oil.
So, to conclude, the commodity wildcards for this site could not have been better. Couple this fact with the strong supply of hides and an almost certain chance of overseas AI to trade with, my opinion was that I had to be nuts if I were to decide to wander around looking for something that 'might' be a little better.
I think Samson's discoveries about commodity supply and demand, plus my own discoveries of techniques for refreshing commodity supplies, have increased the trading opportunities beyond what was normally expected in OCC games.
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rjmatsleepers
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I've downloaded P's AD 500 save, but I'll avoid looking at it (and commenting) for a while. I may be able to play some turns today, but what with the grand prix and a few other things, I'm not sure. Are we aiming to post by Friday?
RJM at Sleeper's
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by solo
So, to conclude, the commodity wildcards for this site could not have been better. Couple this fact with the strong supply of hides and an almost certain chance of overseas AI to trade with, my opinion was that I had to be nuts if I were to decide to wander around looking for something that 'might' be a little better.
I think Samson's discoveries about commodity supply and demand, plus my own discoveries of techniques for refreshing commodity supplies, have increased the trading opportunities beyond what was normally expected in OCC games. |
I'm going to have to mug up on commodity supply and the "wonder bread" technique. But I still have a further question. If you were playing this as an EL game and you have cities at both locations, which would you choose for your SSC? Do the trading opportunities still play a big role or do the extra arrows now dominate? (I wouldn't be able to resist the extra arrows, but would I be making a mistake?)
RJM at Sleeper's
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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In an EL game, the SSC gets the site with the best potential for total trade arrows. On this map, the 4-special site is superior since it would also be better for a r/rr connection to a German city(s). In EL, the wildcards for the SSC are not as important, since you can also make deliveries to it to help free up supplies. In EL, it's more a matter of picking colony wildcards that suit the SSC commodity demands.
In OCC, there are not as many options for commodity manipulations, so the wildcards and other factors listed above are more important. However, the key factor for me would be a strong supply of hides.
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14-04-2005 17:32
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