11-05-2005 10:38									#121
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Elephant I have a business trip tomorrow and another next week that I have been spending too much time preparing. I am probably unable to post anything for the next week. I will try to continue my mediocre AD500 save but suggest you not wait for me on Sunday.

Are you back from your trips? If we wait a few more days will you be able to continue to AD 1000? We seem to have slowed down all on our own, so no harm done if you think you can post something. Otherwise, do we continue to AD 1500?

RJM at Sleeper's

	17-05-2005 10:50									#122
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OK guys,

how about we choose our saves and play through to AD 1500? Can anyone play and post by next Sunday (22nd May)?

RJM at Sleeper's

	17-05-2005 16:54									#123
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OK for me. Any chance somebody might be launching?

	17-05-2005 20:02									#124
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I got back home yesterday evening with a dead laptop. I should be back in operation by evening. Go ahead with the 1000-1500 round; from the looks of things Solo might make launch status but I doubt the rest of us. I am still at AD500; I might catch up by the weekend.

	18-05-2005 11:13									#125
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Peaster OK for me. Any chance somebody might be launching?

If anyone launches, it won't be me. My best result in a normal EL game is mid 16th century. In an OCC, I'll be satisfied with a win.

RJM at Sleeper's

	18-05-2005 19:55									#126
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Greetings,

I know this is probably not the best way to introduce myself to you guys, so I apologize for posting so late in this discussion, but I am just so glad to see that Civ 2 is still alive and kicking as it is still one of my favorite games of all time.

I am still new to OCC and EL games, so I do not know how much I can contribute to this discussion/game, so I will refrain from submitting my results from playing this start in any official capacity, but will instead use this opportunity to state some observations and hopefully get some questions answered so that I can participate in the next OCC game of 2005 in some meaningful way (assuming there is one).

First comment, from reading through this topic, the Paulicy, and Solo's magnificent EL strategy guide I realize that I am amazingly far behind all of you as I have not played Civ 2 in years and up until about a week ago had yet to deliver a commodity caravan! However, after having played a few games using the strategies laid out, I was amazed at how quickly one can improve their game just by a few adjustments in thought process and game style. I was able to acheive a landing in the early 1700's using only one city on deity, whereas before that was my best landing time using 30+ cities on Prince or King level. I am obviously not up to par with any of the players involved in this thread yet, and do not consider myself anywhere near being able to even compare my gameplay with the likes of Solo, one of the all time great masters of Civ 2, but I hope to improve through participating in events like this.

Second comment, I have played this OCC start a few times already using a variety of openings and have analyzed the logs of all the players currently participating. It appears as though and early Republic is superior to the celebrating Monarchy for OCC (at least from what I have seen on this map). While this style does start considerably slower than the celebrating monarchy, it does appear to catch up quite fast after MPE is built. I have yet to discover exactly why this is the case, but my guess would be that it has to do with not wasting beakers on techs the AI will likely discover, and the ability to skip sometimes several early techs entirely.

Third comment, I have also noticed that the reverse of this is true in EL games, that a Monarchy start is superior to the early republic start as it allows for more cities and colonies earlier. It would be interesting to discover the cut off at the number of cities that benefit more from an early republic start before an early monarchy start becomes more beneficial.

Fourth comment, I believe that 1500AD is safe from all players this go round. I have played Solo's save on through a couple of times and my best result so far is a landing in 1636AD IIRC. As good as Solo is, I am not sure even he will be able to deliver enough freights fast enough to improve upon that time by more than about 100 years. Of course, I could be wrong (and often am).

All right, now for the questions. First off, how do you determine whether or not an Ally will gift tech or gift gold? I know that they must have more than 50 gold in the bank, but often times I ask when the AI has over 200 gold and they still gift me Pottery instead of gold.

Second, how do you determine what a city will supply and demand throughout the course of the game? This is especially useful in determining whether or not my SSC will have a supply of hides or not.

Third, where can I find out about the Hides "bug" and the Copper Dye "bug"? I have read quite extensively on these forums and the GL Index and have yet to run across these topics.

Thank you all for providing many insights into arguably the best game of all time. And apologies for the length of this post!

Stuporman

	18-05-2005 20:39									#127
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by StuporMan All right, now for the questions. First off, how do you determine whether or not an Ally will gift tech or gift gold? I know that they must have more than 50 gold in the bank, but often times I ask when the AI has over 200 gold and they still gift me Pottery instead of gold. Second, how do you determine what a city will supply and demand throughout the course of the game? This is especially useful in determining whether or not my SSC will have a supply of hides or not. Third, where can I find out about the Hides "bug" and the Copper Dye "bug"? I have read quite extensively on these forums and the GL Index and have yet to run across these topics.

Thanks for the kind words, and welcome to our community! I have continued this OCC game and my landing date was 1606, so your 1636 was only 3 turns later. Nice going!

In response to your questions:

1) Besides making sure an ally has at least 50 gold, I make sure of two other things before asking for a gift: one being that my power rating is lower (this may not be obvious) and that their own attitude towards me has not slipped. When doing this I almost never get a tech in place of gold. Variation in AI reponses may also be affected by the version of the game you are using.

2 & 3) These things are discussed in the section on Trade in my EL Guide, but you can find more details and additional discussion in Samson's thread "How Commodity Supply and Demand Lists Are Determined". I believe I also provided a link to this thread in my guide.

	19-05-2005 00:14									#128
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Thank you for the information Solo.

I am sorry I forgot that all the trade information was listed in your EL guide. I read that a while ago and forgot how in depth it was in regards to supply and demand and how they are calculated.

I am now looking over samson's thread on the subject of supply and demand and am a little overwhelmed by the scale of it all. Truly a work of genius on his part to figure all of this information out.

I am currently working on a tool to help those of us without our masters degree in Civ 2 trade mechanics to be able to (more) easily figure out the supply and demand lists for each city. This may take a while, since the complexity of such a task is daunting, and the free time I have to work on such a project is limited, but we shall see what I can come up with.

Thanks again,
StuporMan

	19-05-2005 11:08									#129
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by StuporMan Greetings, I was able to acheive a landing in the early 1700's using only one city on deity, whereas before that was my best landing time using 30+ cities on Prince or King level. I am obviously not up to par with any of the players involved in this thread yet, and do not consider myself anywhere near being able to even compare my gameplay with the likes of Solo, one of the all time great masters of Civ 2, but I hope to improve through participating in events like this. Stuporman

Welcome aboard.

If you've managed an OCC landing in the 1700s, you're way ahead of me. I think my best is in the 20th century.

If you haven't done so already, I encourage you to pick up an AD 1000 save from Peaster, Grigor or myself and play it through to 1500 - Grigor's is MGE BTW. You can then post the results - the more saves and logs we get, the more we learn.

RJM at Sleeper's

	19-05-2005 17:20									#130
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Thanks RJM,

I will pick up a few saves and see what I can do.

One note about my 1700s landing is that I did have some knowledge of the map and a good guideline to follow from Solo's log. The other benefit I had was knowing what the city would supply and the (likely) nearby cities that would demand them. I would not have done nearly as well without this prior knowledge, which is why I am so interested in playing one from the beginning with no prior knowledge. This is also why I have not included a log as this was mainly an experiment on my part to see what I could learn before making a legitimate attempt.


StuporMan

	21-05-2005 09:13									#131
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Welcome, Stuporman! You know more about OCC than I do. I am just here to make the others look good .

Congratulations on an excellent result, solo!

spoiler(highlight to read): I played out my previous save to 1500AD. I am getting about 1 tech every 3 turns (just past Automobile now). My engineer and 2 settlers are overworked, trying to finish farmland, clean up pollution, and build RR's. I think this is where my practice game started to fall apart. Maybe I can find some notes about what not to do at this point.

	22-05-2005 04:14									#132
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Perhaps another game is in order after this one is finished to give StuporMan a chance to participate in a complete game.

Peaster, are you making use of the key civ? A tech every two turns should be routine in OCC after all science improvements and wonders in the SCC are in place.

On to the finish line, although I go a bit beyond 1500:

1020 oil, The Laser
1040 food
1060 food, Flight
1080 food
1100 food, Radio, oil to Tlateloclo, 256g
1120 beads
1140 food, Advanced Flight, Germans – trade for Ceremonial Burial, 50g
1160 food
1180 food, Rocketry
1200 Manufacturing Plant, (now there are 82 shields, 2 to spare)
1220 food, Space Flight, beads to Tenochtitlan, 240g
Chinese & Aztecs – give tech, share maps
Babylonians – trade for Pottery, share maps

1240 Apollo Program
1260 S#1, Plastics
1280 S#2
1300 S#3, Superconductor
1320 S#4
1340 S#5, Fusion Power
1360 S#6
1380 through 1520 S#7 – S#15
1530 M#1, Germans – they deliver a caravan, 50g gift
1540 M#2
1550 M#3
1560 C#1
1570 C#2, launch 15-1-1-1-1-1, ETA 1606 AD (just missed a pre-1600 landing)

With the benefit of hindsight, I think an earlier landing could have been achieved by going to Monarchy early instead of choosing early Republic. Other players got off to a much better start than I did by doing this. Coupling early Monarchy with a game focusing on overseas trade was probably the best strategy for this OCC game. I think either city site would have produced a similar result, since both were good hides producers.

Perhaps some things have changed since Paul’s Guide: namely, the use of Marco Polo’s Embassy and the exploitation of additional trading opportunities. However, most of the ideas outlined in the guide have remained valid.

Attachment: so1570.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	22-05-2005 04:26									#133
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I downloaded Peaster's save and have answered my own question. In it his power rating was weak, and after gifting all techs to the Babylonians (green civ is the key civ when we are weak), tech costs are reduced enough to learn a tech every two turns. When superhighways are added, it will be close to 1 tech per turn.

	22-05-2005 06:28									#134
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Bravo, Solo! I have played my MGE save to 1500AD, and am not going to get to Space Flight until th mid-1600s. However, this represents by far my best OCC game.

I finally figured out to work the Wonder Bread trick, and will be able to get some 1-turn advances as a result. What I have been really enjoying is my NONE shipchain made of bribed Chinese and Babylonian Transports and Caravels. With Magellan's, I can reach the Aztecs in 2 turns, which is the minimum without starting from within the city. I have deliberately not been gifting so that I can bribe units cheaply and prevent all danger. That may have led to some slowdowns, but had I thought of Wonder Bread earlier I think it would have been enough to land in the 1600s. The city is size 29 and will grow next turn on 10% luxuries.

Attachment: g_a1500.sav.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	22-05-2005 17:32									#135
	Get a bigger avatar today!

A NON ship chain is a great idea for OCC when trade is being exploited. This might be especially useful before galleons and transports are available, since city growth over 21 must be postponed when triremes and/or caravels are being supported. I've looked at your save and concur that Space Flight is likely in the mid 1600's, leading the way to an excellent result.

It's too bad a road/rail connection could not be made to the Germans in time to take advantage of the 1 turn advances that might have been achieved.

	23-05-2005 11:08									#136
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Here's my effort up to AD 1500. I took note of Solo's comments about gifting to your key civ. I couldn't remember which colours went with which rating, so I gifted everybody. This seemed to work as I had a couple of turns where I was down to 1 turn per tech - the first time I've ever managed that as far as I can remember. Here's the log

AD 1000 Can't remember how to work out key civs, so I give techs to everyone who will talk to me. corporation->steel
AD 1020 start building railroad to Leipzig
AD 1040 swap for warrior code steel->refining
AD 1060 Communism discovered
AD 1080 refining->combustion
AD 1100
AD 1120 combustion->automobile
AD 1140
AD 1160 automobile->electronics;
AD 1180 build superhighways; oil(u)-Berlin 139 electronics->feudalism
AD 1200 feudalism->chivalry
AD 1220
AD 1240 chivalry->leadership
AD 1260 gold (u) Berlin 180; leadership->masonry
AD 1280 swap for masonry
AD 1300 start researching tactics->mass production
AD 1320 dye(u)-Berlin 274 mass production->machine tools
AD 1340
AD 1360 machine tools->communism;
AD 1380 swap for communism;start researching miniturization
AD 1400 miniturisation->computers
AD 1420 oil(u)-Berlin 273
AD 1440 computers->flight
AD 1460 build research lab flight->radio
AD 1480
AD 1500

RJM at Sleeper's

Attachment: rjma1500.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	23-05-2005 18:07									#137
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I downloaded all the saves and decided to use Grigor's. Here is my log to 1500.

1000: Power Rating: Strong, Gift tech to China, gift Warrior Code
1020: Steel, Food, sell colloseum, rushbuy hydro plant, Barb ship (15,29), automobile 2 turns,
retreating legions
1040: hydro plant, rush frieght, barbs land(16,23)
1060: Spice, disband legion, trying to get a barb leader
1080: Food, Automobile, rush superhighways, capture barb leader, Drop to Moderate, gift tech to Aztecs,
Mass production 2 turns
1100: Superhighways
1120: Food, Mass Production, disband diplomat, rush mass transit, researching conscription (hurry up
Germans! I want Feudalism)
1140: Mongol Capitol Moved Kashagar, Mass Transit built
1160: Food, Germans demand 409 gold , give 409 gold, gift 50 back, spice to Berlin 864 gold.
I appease so that I can hopefully trade for feudalism later, no tech because I dont want to slow them down.
Slip to Inadequate, but do not gift because I want Feudalism from Germans.
1180: Food, Conscription, switch to feudalism to prevent getting flight (cancels Colossus), hope Germans
get feudalism first they have 1 turn.
1200: Stupid Germans, oh well, guess it is up to me from now on, will no longer pay to keep alliances.
Also I forgot to rush a horse to get a freight last turn. Doh! I am trying to get enough production for SS structurals in 1 turn later in the game (I am guessing late 1700 landing at this point if I cannot free up any commodities).
1220: Food, Feudalism, I am going to kill the Germans(They got Feudalism this same turn!) Oh well, it
probably saved me some gold, researching Chivalry, Attempting Wonder Bread to free commodities.
1240: Lighthouse, Wonder Bread Worked! Oil is now freed, Contact Chinese, give 50g, Gift techs through
Automobile to Chinese, request gift, 150g. I will always give 50g tribute to allies as often I get it back and more when I request gift.
1260: Oil, Chivalry, Researching Fission, Bribe Knight 82g, Kill Leader 150g, Delivering to Shanghai,
hoping for demand to change by then to oil.
1280: Again forgot to rush my freight! Chinese contact me via my freight, demand 50g, give feudalism,
gift 100g. I love diplomacy!
1300: Fission, Research Leadership, Oil to Shanghai 526g, not bad for undemanded and released spice.
Lost my bribed knight to barb knight, Aquisition of Chivalry forces me to pay 160g per freight, still making enough in taxes per turn to do this and keep 2 turn advances, bumping up this turn for 1 turn advance.
1320: Spice, Leadership -> Tactics, reset tax rate for 2 turn tech and 205 gpt.
1340: Food, Bribe knight for 82g, this will turn into a cheap freight, Should have waited, Shanghai now
demands oil, hopefully spice will free oil back up.
1360: Food, Tactics -> Machine Tools, Aztecs get conscription(maybe they had feudalism earlier I guess I
wont know now). Disband knights.
1380: Food, just waiting on my frieght to arrive at Berlin.
1400: Machine Tools -> Nuklear Power. Forgot to rush freight again! Need to get 10 more shields for
frieght per turn. need to bump up science again. Probably need to gift tech again, but I am strong now and Germans are greedy!
1420: Food, waiting one turn to deliver frieght for 1 turn tech. Disband Archers for extra shield and 1
turn freight. Retreat NONE Horse for defense.
1440: Food, Nuclear Power, Spice to Berlin 828g, I think this has got me into trade deadlock, oh well it
was good for one last 1 turn tech. This probably means that I will do no better than a early 1800s landing.
1460: Food, oops I guess I miscalculated my beakers. This further delays landing. Hopefully I will
get a new supply commodity, but I am pretty sure I am stuck with 2 turn techs for here on out.
1480: Miniaturization. oops forgot to rush my freight, oh well it makes rushing my offshore platform
cheaper.
1500: Offshore Platform, Met my goal of 1 turn freight, should be able to get 80 shields for SS
Strucurals by time Apolo arrives. Computers next turn, this will give me the best science output possible in 1520. I am still guessing an early 1800s landing, but time will tell.

Some things I discovered with this save. First, two 200 gold frieghts are better than one 800 gold frieghts because they can lead to two 1 turn techs. I should have sent my Oil or Spice frieghts to another location so it would not block my supply. Second, a bribed barbarian is a cheaper way to start a rushbuild (after gunpowder) than any other method. Third, I will tech bomb any AI researching Communism. The lack of any embassies (save the Germans) really hurt my ability to trade techs or demand tribute. This probably cost me a great number of turns due to having research feudalism and chivalry when I probably could have traded for them instead. After looking at rjmatsleepers's save another option to speed up my progress would have been to research toward computers sooner to get the research boost. Also, missing that 1 turn tech really hurt along with having a few 3 turn techs.

I will continue this to landing, but it appears rjmatsleepers will beat me by several turns as will Grigor. At least I have learned a few lessons.


Oh, one more question, in order for wonder bread to work, does the wonder have to be completed? The commodities did not appear to change until the turn that the lighthouse got built. Is it the caravan/freight that triggers the update, or is it the building of the wonder? In other words, could I have delivered one food freight to the lighthouse, then switch production to something else, or do I have to finish the wonder?

StuporMan

	23-05-2005 18:09									#138
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Sorry for double post, but I forgot to attach my save.

Attachment: sm_a1500.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	23-05-2005 18:58									#139
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RJM,

Nice to see those 1 tech turns isn't it? Excellent result! I keep a list of key civ assignments handy, since I always forget, too. They are:

Pathetic - white
Weak - green
Inadequate - dark blue
Moderate - yellow
Strong - light blue
Mighty - orange
Supreme - purple

StuporMan,

For wonder bread, using a freight towards the completion of a wonder is enough to trigger the effect, so there is a possibility of freeing up some supplies by starting on a wonder and switching production to something else, a clever idea, by the way.

However, there is more to it than just starting a wonder. Here are the most likely reasons why it may not work:

1) There are still one or more commodities in transit that have not been delivered or used.

2) The most recently delivered commodity created a new trade route in the source or destination city. Wonder bread only creates a new supply for delivered commodities that appeared to go into "limbo", i.e. there were not any visible signs afterwards that the delivery had been made.

If I am not mistaken, I believe that my EL guide has a save file and section illustrating the use of wonder bread in more detail. Included are examples of how it may be used incorrectly.

Now in your case where you had to complete the wonder to free up supply, I suspect that it might have been an automatic city cycle update that coincided with this event. If not, perhaps this is a new and different effect. If so, you should be credited with this discovery. One question I have is: Did you use up all of your food freights when completing this wonder?

Last edited by solo on 23-05-2005 at 19:11

	23-05-2005 19:32									#140
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Since there were a few people 'wondering' about the use of wonder bread I have posted the relevant save file and discussion from my guide here:

There are also ways of using food caravans to unblock commodity supplies. One method I discovered makes use of the supply and demand list update that occurs in a city when the city contributes a food caravan to a wonder. This was dubbed as the “wonder bread” trick by Samson, and it has become invaluable in refreshing the supply of SSC commodities that do not create new trade routes when they are delivered. Following is an example of its use.

If you load up the save named wonder and take a look at Boston’s city display, you’ll see:

Supplies: (dye), (silver), (cloth)
Demands: Uranium, (coal), copper
Karakorum oil: +35t
Karakorum cloth: +35t
Rome silver: +21t

You can see that all three supply commodities are blocked. Now if you go back outside and look at St. Louis, you’ll notice it’s building a wonder, accumulating shields towards the construction of the Apollo Program later. Now take Boston’s food freight and add it to the wonder being built. Then recheck Boston’s display. No changes. Hmm! Wonder bread didn’t work!

The reason it did not work was because dye can not be re-supplied until Boston’s dye freight next to Hastings is delivered. Now reload the wonder save and deliver Boston’s dye freight to Hastings first. Now check Boston’s display. No changes, and the reason this delivery did not create a new trade route to replace one of the existing ones to Karakorum or Rome, is because both of these cities are size 8, and have most of their workers earning trade arrows, giving them more base trade than Hastings. Although delivered, dye did not replace any of the existing routes and went into what you might call a state of “limbo”.

Well, to release dye from this purgatory, the wonder bread ploy must be used, so try it now, by adding Boston’s food freight to the wonder being built in St. Louis. Now check Boston’s display and you’ll see it has changed, with dye now in supply.

Supplies: dye, (silver), (cloth)
Demands: Uranium, (coal), copper
Karakorum oil: +35t
Karakorum cloth: +35t
Rome silver: +21t

After this new supply of dye is built and delivered, Boston can produce another food freight to keep this re-supply of dye going indefinitely, which is what I ended up doing during my game.

Without the wonder bread ploy, my only option would have been to sit and hope something changed on the next cycle turn, but these turns are few and far between. It’s no good having all that trade potential and not being able to put it to constant use.

Now you may ask what about silver and cloth. Why doesn’t wonder bread unblock either of these two? The reason is because they did not go into “limbo” when they were delivered. Cloth went to Karakorum and the silver went to Rome. To unblock either of these two, a trade would have to be made to a city with more base trade than one of these two, causing one of these trade routes to be replaced. I didn’t want to do this, because demand for dye was widespread. I also wanted to retain the lucrative Karakorum rail bonuses.

Attachment: wonder.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	24-05-2005 00:45									#141
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Solo,

I have dug up a previous save and have indeed noticed some different behavior. If you deliver the most recently created food frieght (or frieghts) from that city (or commodity frieght for that matter) it does not appear to free up the supply. I have attached a save to allow you to see this phenomenon for yourselves.

Load up WonderBreadRevisited.sav. You will notice that there is a single active frieght. This is the frieght that was created in this city of Cardiff this turn. Look at the city screen, the Lighthouse should be the production and all three supply commodities should be blocked. Now, exit the city screen and deliver the food freight to help with the wonder. Now check the city screen. All supplies are still blocked!

Now reload the save. Activate and deliver any of the other frieghts. Deliver these to Cardiff and see what happens. The supply of Oil becomes unblocked!

I have used cheat mode to try the following two things as well. I have created a new freight and delivered it. Likewise, the freight did not affect supply, nor did the one created on this turn. Also, I have created a new city, started lighthouse and delivered the new frieght, no effect.

This also holds true if you wait one turn before delivering the frieght. Very interesting indeed. It appears that the latest frieght (or frieghts), if used for a wonder, will not trigger the supply change, but any others will.

Note that I have tested this on MGE and will have to try this out in 2.42 as well. I also have a few more things to experiment with in MGE as well.

EDIT:

Wait, I noticed what was happening in this save. I was delivering an Oil freight to free supply not a Food Freight. This could be what I noticed earlier. I will still investigate this matter further.

Upon Further inspection it appears that I was incorrect. The trigger that caused Oil to be resupplied was using the Oil caravan to build the wonder. Oh well, I must have missed that the first go round. I normally do not station any commodity caravans, so I assumed it was food. Oh well, thought I was onto something there.

At least I now know that my Wonder-Flip technique will work. You can use Wonder Bread to change a Food caravan or frieght to a commodity caravan or frieght for the low-low cost of 83 gold (61 if you do IRB).

StuporMan

Attachment: wonderbreadrevisited.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

Last edited by StuporMan on 24-05-2005 at 01:29

	24-05-2005 08:56									#142
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im dumb, can all of this stuff be done in the ps version of the game?

	24-05-2005 11:00									#143
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quote: Originally posted by StuporMan Some things I discovered with this save. First, two 200 gold frieghts are better than one 800 gold frieghts because they can lead to two 1 turn techs. I should have sent my Oil or Spice frieghts to another location so it would not block my supply. Second, a bribed barbarian is a cheaper way to start a rushbuild (after gunpowder) than any other method. Third, I will tech bomb any AI researching Communism. The lack of any embassies (save the Germans) really hurt my ability to trade techs or demand tribute. This probably cost me a great number of turns due to having research feudalism and chivalry when I probably could have traded for them instead. After looking at rjmatsleepers's save another option to speed up my progress would have been to research toward computers sooner to get the research boost. Also, missing that 1 turn tech really hurt along with having a few 3 turn techs. I will continue this to landing, but it appears rjmatsleepers will beat me by several turns as will Grigor. At least I have learned a few lessons. StuporMan

I'm not sure I'll land earlier than you - my lack of production will be an issue.

On the subject of research path, I always have a problem with the whole feudalism - chivalry - leadership bit. The net result is that I tend to discover flight the turn after I build my research lab

The idea of disbanding bribed barbs to start the next freight seems to work a treat. It made me wonder whether it would have been a good idea (earlier in the game) to try to get a few none warriors just for that purpose.

Like you, I have learned a lot of lessons from this exercise - particularly gaining more benefit from MPE.

RJM at Sleeper's

	24-05-2005 11:08									#144
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by solo RJM, Nice to see those 1 tech turns isn't it? Excellent result! I keep a list of key civ assignments handy, since I always forget, too. They are: Pathetic - white Weak - green Inadequate - dark blue Moderate - yellow Strong - light blue Mighty - orange Supreme - purple

Thanks for these - I thought I had the list handy, but when I came to look for it I couldn't find it. I probably saved it under a name that meant something at the time but no longer rings any bells. However, apart from the tedium of tech gifting 1 tech at a time, I'm not sure that gifting to everybody has any disadvantages.

And yes, those 1 tech turns are really nice. But I did have 1 turn where the science advisor said 1 turn per tech and yet I failed to learn the new tech that turn. I can't think what could have happened on the AI turns to change it. I delayed delivering a freight that turn in order not to waste the beakers which wasn't the brightest move. Oh well!

RJM at Sleeper's

/edit
I suppose it is possible that the trade route to Berlin may have dipped for some reason - perhaps building an engineer. That might have been enough to just miss the next tech.
/end edit

	24-05-2005 11:14									#145
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by dr vanderhevel im dumb, can all of this stuff be done in the ps version of the game?

There are differences between the various PC versions of the game - particularly differences in the AI atttitude between 2.42 and MGE. However AFAIK, the techniques we have been talking about will work in all versions - although I've never played the ps version.

I would have thought that exploiting MPE would work. Tech gifting, wonder bread, etc will work unless there has been a major re-write of the code (which seems unlikely). Your best bet is to try them and see. And then report back here.

RJM at Sleeper's

	24-05-2005 17:51									#146
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

RJM,

Your power rating can change in between turns, which can cause a change in who your key civ is. This may spoil an apparent 1 tech turn, so when things are especially tight, it's a good idea to gift techs to all other AI with a chance of becoming the next key civ, just to make sure you get that tech on time.

	25-05-2005 00:04									#147
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I went ahead and played on to landing from my 1500AD save. I managed a pre 1800 landing, which I am most pleased with.

Log of 1500AD to Launch:
1510: Food Freight(FF), Computers -> Mobile Warfare, Rush Research Lab, mining to forest for 80 shield per turn later
1520: Research Lab
1530: FF, Mobile Warfare -> Robotics, Give chinese techs for 1 turn techs
1540: FF, Robotics -> Laser, I am waiting to get a Manufacturing plant till the turn before space flight to prevent pollution problems.
1550: FF, Laser -> Flight, last 1 turn tech
1560: FF, Flight->Radio, give techs, but still ~300 beakers shy of a 1 turn tech
1570: FF
1580: FF, Radio->Adv Flight
1590: FF, Need to Trade Techs here, Trade for Monotheism, give mobile warfare
1600: FF, Adv Flight->Rocketry
1610: FF
1620: FF, Rocketry->Space Flight
1630: Last FF, Rushing MFG Plant
1640: Space Flight -> Plastics, MFG Plant, 79 shields, 80 after I disband transport to help with Apollo (this saves me 1 freight anyway and I dont need it for trade).
1650: Apollo, 83 shield after RR goes onto one of the Forest squares, trade for Genetic Engineering with Chinese, give techs, share maps, Give techs to Germans to Worshipful, do not share maps. I am mainly keeping the Germans happy as they are my closest and therefore most dangerous neighbor. I also repositioned my diplomat to the North Eastern Most City Square in order to block the roadway just in case.
1660: SS Struct, 1 down 14 more to go, Plastics->Super Conductor
1670: SS Struct
1680: SS Struct, Super Conductor->Fusion Power, Germans make contact with diplomat, give tech to worship, share maps, expel diplomat (do not want war with Germans, but it looks like Apollo's aggression is showing up), Tax Rate set to give tech in 12 turns (just in time for launch).
1690: SS Struct, Disband Settler and spend 4 freights and 400 gold for Module 1. Settler disbanded to keep population from decrease until after SS launch.
1700: SS Module, spend 4 frieghts and 480 gold for next one. I like getting the expensive modules out of the way early, this allows me to raise production up to 80 if I haven't, or allow me to clean up pollution causing the same problem. Pollution has been good to me so far, only causing food problems.
1710: SS Module, spend 3 frieghts and 680 gold on last module. Saving last 2 freight for componenets.
1720: SS Module, now for components, 1 freight + 440 gold = component 1, Dispel German Diplomat. I wish now that I hadn't given them mobile warfare, a tank at the gates would really put a damper on things.
1730: SS Component, see formula above, Since no pollution, I start my engineer building a fortress on my North-Western Most Tile. This will either store work for a quick pollution clean up, or serve as an extra buffer against German Agression. Germans develop combined arms this turn, but have neither fission nor rocketry so I have no major concerns of paratroopers or Helicopters. They are still in Republic, but I do not think this will last long.
1740: SS Component- now all that is left are structurals, Fortress Built, I guess fortresses don't take as long as I remembered to build, but this is not bad as there is only one pollution square now. 9 turns to Fusion Power.
1750: SS Structural, Countdown T-minus 10 turns and counting to launch.
1752: SS Structural, 9, German Diplomat decides to investigate, gets expelled. Persistant isn't he.
1754: SS Structural, 8, Mongol City of Aleppo Sighted just West of Hamburg, this bodes well for my space ship as this will more than likely cause a Mongol-German war, if I do not miss my guess.
1756: SS Structural, 7
1758: SS Structural, 6, Fusion Power Acquired (researching Communism), Trade Superconductor for Communism with Chinese (going for labor union for defense, again just in case), bumping science back up for next few turns, I have more gold than I know what to do with.
1760: SS Structural, 5, Pollution threatening my 80 production (down to 81)
1762: SS Structural, 4, Guerilla Warfare->Recycling, Engineer cleans pollution up just in time still at 81 prod.
1764: SS Structural, 3, Settler also has just in time cleanup still at 81 shields, Stubborn German diplomat again expelled.
1766: SS Structural, 2, Recycling (hopefully will help pollution somewhat) -> Labor Union, I will lose Engineer next turn to food shortage, but his job is done anyway.
1768: SS Structural, 1, Mongol Diplomat comes calling, Give Techs, share maps, Dispel Diplomat.
1770: SS Structural, We have liftoff, er well we would if I did not see that because of the 2 year turns it would be more profitable for me to build 4 more components. Had I launched this turn the ship would have landed in 1807, as it is I will beat 1800 by a few years! Now to spend some cash!
1772: SS Component, Labor Union->Environmentalism (pollution is killing me). Go NONE Settler Go!
1774: SS Component. Sold MFG Plant to (hopefully) help with pollution, I can buy SS parts at this point anyway. German Dip, Give Tech (including rocketry (doh!)), share maps.
1776: SS Component. Mongol diplomat reappears, gets expelled again. Chinese start Space Race, unfortunately for them, they are way too late.
1778: Final SS Component. Launch, estimated arrival 1793! I beat 1800, which was my goal. Now I just have to stay alive that long. Religious Fanatics start uprising near Cardiff, this could get interesting, so I will continue with my account of the events before landing. You can skip the next section if you aren't interested in reading about my dealing with the barbs and other civs.

Log from Launch to Arrival:
1779: Solar Plant - I am sick of pollution, probably a mistake to not build a defensive unit, but I need to cease this pollution per turn nonsense. Bribe artillery 102g, kill artillery. Count 12 barbs left and 1 stack. This could get dicey. I hope the Germans and Mongols stay peaceful for a few more turns.
1780: Germans steal Robotics. Crap and Double Crap. Looks like war on two sides. Barbarians move to surround city. I hope my diplomat is up to the task. Bribe artillery and fanatic. Move fanatic to defend stack with artillery and diplomat. I must move my shiny new mech inf out to defend against barbs on the other side of the city. I just hope for no armor on the horizon from the Germans.
1781: No news from the Germans or Mongols, I might just make it. Unfortunately my fanatic on the river lost to an attacking fanatic, lost all 3 units. Fortunately I am producing a mech inf per turn. One is now fortified in the fortress while the other blocks the barbarians. Despite the losses things are looking up this turn.
1782: Lost a veteran mech inf on the second fanatic that attacked it. New one arrives to take its place. Greeks declare war on Mongols. Germans Declare war on Greeks.
1783: Lost another vet mech inf to the second attacking fanatic, these are some impressive barbarians! Oh well, the new mech inf takes the dead ones place, after killing of an artillery. Still no barbs in city radius. Mongols lost Karakorum to the Greeks. This war will keep the rabble off my backs for a while. I should have little trouble with the barbs now that I don't have to worry as much about the other civs.
1784: Fundamentalism, Finally Catching a break, no units lost to barbs this turn. New Mech inf stays in city. I will be rushing a MFG Plant and a barracks. Germans build SS Component. Unless the Germans can pull of a miracle I should be safe, but you never know.
1785: MFG Plant, nothing new to report, the barbs are running away from my city and I will have a barracks next turn. Mongols lose 2 cities to Greeks. Germans capture 2 ex-Mongol cities from the Greeks. Mongols may be out of the game pretty soon.
1786: Barracks, time for the vet howies. Hopefully I can get a barb leader for my trouble. If not, I have enough money for now.
1787: Stealth, howie, Mongols lose yet another city, Aleppo. They have one remaining. This is somewhat disturbing as the greeks and I are currently at war. A stealth fighter can now be used as long range defense. Barbs should be dead shortly. Tax to 100%. Sell research lab.
1788: Stealth Fighter, this turn I make the barbs pay. 3 fanatics and 1 artillery lose their lives. Likewise, only 2 pollution squares left. Horse moved up the road to help scout for incoming greeks.
1789: Germans paradrop to take Aleppo. I feel much safer now. Thank you Germans. All active military units are now either in the city or in the fortress. I should be able to hold off any attacks until the landing now quite easily. I will build an SDI just in case though. Sell University.
1790: SDI. 3 turns to victory. Nothing can stop me now. I decide to buy the Cure for Cancer, just for fun.
1791: Cure For Cancer. Germans make Peace with the Greeks. I guess the Mongols might survive after all. Fanatic Uprising near Cardiff, I am not concerned. they will be too late to have any real effect and I should be able to easily take them out with my existing units. Stealth fighter kills 3 Barb units, limps back to Cardiff. Tank kills the stack of 5 units. Then another fanatic, only one is left.
1792: Mech Inf. Tank kills final insurgent. Now all that is left to do is hit enter and ...
1793: Arrival at AC.

Observations and Analysis:
I normally would have just posted up to my launch, but with the barbs and tension between myself and the Germans, Mongols, and Greeks I thought it would be more interesting to include my log of the last few turns as well. I was really only in danger for one of the turns where my fortress was empty and all I had in Cardiff was a single horseman. Fortunately the Germans and Mongols stayed true to their alliance all game long or my life would have been much more difficult.

It is interesting to see how games can turn out so differently. In the game I played(from the start), the Mongols became the superpower, killing off both the Greeks and the Germans and making a huge play towards me. In the turn after I launched that game I had a Mongol Tank appear and break treaty by killing off my diplomat. I was fortunately able to use my settler and engineer to block long enough to get out a howie, but life was interesting for the rest of the game with Mongol units filing in just about every turn. I eventually turned the tide, but it was very interesting there for a while. That is probably why I was so paranoid at the end of this game.

I am glad to now know the ins and outs of the Wonder Bread technique. I believe that using Wonder Flipping, a ship chain, and some careful trade planning I can reduce my landing times by at least a few turns. Properly done, this could mean that you could deliver a commodity frieght every other turn. I feel that Wonder Flipping could be even more useful in an EL game, allowing colonies and helpers more opportunities for trade. Unfortunately, due to the nature of how Wonder Bread works, the SSC could still only deliver a commodity every other turn. I originally envisioned a system of using helper food frieghts to do the Wonder Flipping as this would allow a commodity frieght out of the SSC every turn. However, after careful analysis of Wonder Bread via Solo's example this would only be possible by rehoming the food frieghts to the SSC.

I am currently working on a two continent EL strategy using two large trade cities delivering commodities back and forth using this Wonder Flipping technique, but this will have to be carefully planned and a second SSC site would have to be found on another continent quickly in order to get the growth and development of both SSC to work out properly. This most likely would not be a viable strategy, but it might be worth exploring. At any rate I have gained much more knowledge of OCC, Trade, and Civ 2 in general through this exercise and I look forward to more events like this in the future.

StuporMan

	25-05-2005 09:03									#148
	Get a bigger avatar today!

i've tested out most of this stuff on the ps version in the past few days. allied ai at worshipful due to gifting are usually reluctant to gift me. and reluctant to share maps. i played up til 1400 ad, i recieved one gift and two maps the entire time.
i wish i could join you guys but i dont have the pc version.these landing dates are insane, i will never come close to these

	25-05-2005 12:08									#149
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by dr vanderhevel i've tested out most of this stuff on the ps version in the past few days. allied ai at worshipful due to gifting are usually reluctant to gift me. and reluctant to share maps. i played up til 1400 ad, i recieved one gift and two maps the entire time. i wish i could join you guys but i dont have the pc version.these landing dates are insane, i will never come close to these

It sounds as if the AI interactions with the human player may have been modified somewhat.

As far as the "insane" landing dates are concerned, keep plugging away. It took me a long while to get any landing before 1850. Apart from all the tricks and techniques, you will need to put effort into micromanagement of your city or cities. For example, a single extra beaker in 2300 BC may get you to Monarchy 4 turns earlier, which will speed you to trade, etc. There are lots of situations like that. But the key is trade, trade, trade - at least in the PC version of the game.

RJM at Sleeper's

	25-05-2005 12:14									#150
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by solo RJM, Your power rating can change in between turns, which can cause a change in who your key civ is. This may spoil an apparent 1 tech turn, so when things are especially tight, it's a good idea to gift techs to all other AI with a chance of becoming the next key civ, just to make sure you get that tech on time.

It may have been a change of key civ, but I was tech gifting everyone so I suspect it was something else. I should have saved the position to take a closer look - maybe next time.

RJM at Sleeper's