01-04-2005 10:37									#91
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Nice to know Kid doesn't believe the accused have rights either. Really puts his statements as being for the poor in context, doesn't it? He supports the powerful when it suits him.

	01-04-2005 13:56									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So all defense attorneys are, by definition, unethical? It's a good think you're not one, I suppose. I would hate for your strenuous definition of "unethical" to screw a client.

Did you even bother to read what I responded to?

	01-04-2005 13:57									#93
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel you can't be serious.

Even when you think he's guilty?

	01-04-2005 14:03									#94
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There's no ethical problem with defending someone you think is guilty. If you know they're guilty, OTOH...

	01-04-2005 18:34									#95
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Well Cochran, or his people, said the following:

1) That drug dealers killed Nicole.

2) That Furman planted the glove.

3) That Vanatter (or one of the other detectives) planted the blood at Nicole's residence.

4) That there was a conspiracy among the police to frame OJ.

Now, I don't believe any of the above was true. The question, though, is did Cochran know that all of this was untrue at the time?

Just a thought. It is possible to frame a guilty man.

	01-04-2005 19:43									#96
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Offering alternative theories for the crime and explanations for the evidence isn't remotely unethical. That's part of what the defense is supposed to do. I don't see how what Cochran did in that trial is any different than what any other (competent) attorney does in the course of a criminal case.

	01-04-2005 19:45									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Did you even bother to read what I responded to?

Yeah, and it's rubbish. As DT said, even if you think your client may be guilty, it's not "unethical" to defend them. I suggest studying the Bar Association's code of ethics a bit before saying such things.

Besides, we don't know what Cochran thought about OJ's guilt, so making such claims is just unsubstantiated speculation.

	01-04-2005 20:43									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Nice to know Kid doesn't believe the accused have rights either. Really puts his statements as being for the poor in context, doesn't it? He supports the powerful when it suits him.

You have a reading comprehension problem. I explicitly stated that even the accused (even the guilty) have a right to a scumbag lawyer like Cochran.

	01-04-2005 20:48									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident all lawyers are sob's. it just goes with the territory.

Thanks dude. Don't ever forget it !!

	01-04-2005 20:54									#100
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel The job of a defense attorney is to zealously represent the interests of his client, even if you think he is guilty.

A prominent Canadian criminal lawyer talked about this defending the guily question this way. he said that:

Guilt is for the jury and judge to decide, not the defense lawyer. If a judge says that a person is "not guilty" who is he to say otherwise? This stands even if the client admits that they took the ax and murdered the spouse. Maybe his client was lying or deluded when he said that.

	01-04-2005 20:56									#101
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Its better not to know. That way your client can take the stand and you won't be positive that he is perjuring himself (you can't put someone on the stand who you know is going to lie)

Sort of . ..


The reality is that if you attempt to get excused at a late stage in a trial, the judge will say no way and the result is that your client gives their story in the narritive form. The lawyer is then not assisting in a prejury but has thrown up a huge red flag for the judge that they are about to hear a pack of lies.

	01-04-2005 21:00									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It is unethical to lie to the court,

Agreed

quote: Originally posted by Ned or permit your witnesses to lie.

You might not have a choice. Clients often lie to their own lawyers or choose to testify against the advice of their lawyer.

	01-04-2005 21:06									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Offering alternative theories for the crime and explanations for the evidence isn't remotely unethical. That's part of what the defense is supposed to do. I don't see how what Cochran did in that trial is any different than what any other (competent) attorney does in the course of a criminal case.

Bingo! There is a VAST difference between lying to the court and offering possible alternative theories of what happened.

	01-04-2005 21:07									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten There's no ethical problem with defending someone you think is guilty. If you know they're guilty, OTOH...

Even then the defense bar say there is no ethical problem.

The argument goes that the state should not be able to imprison people without following the proper procedures and attaining sufficient proof for conviction. Since defendents are entitled to a zealous defence, the defence attorney feels ethicallly in the clear.


Or would you folks like a situation where the defense attorney decides who gets a decent effort from them and puts themselves in the role of judge and jury

	01-04-2005 21:10									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Offering alternative theories for the crime and explanations for the evidence isn't remotely unethical. That's part of what the defense is supposed to do. I don't see how what Cochran did in that trial is any different than what any other (competent) attorney does in the course of a criminal case.

You have to have some evideniary support for your alternative theories.

I was involved in a case where the a theory of explanation was proffered. This theory was later contradicted by evidence that the people who proffered it had no factual basis for proffering the explanation. The judgment obtained was revoked on the theory of fraud on the court.

	01-04-2005 21:11									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You have a reading comprehension problem. I explicitly stated that even the accused (even the guilty) have a right to a scumbag lawyer like Cochran.

No, the problem is with you. If you consider lawyers to be scumbags for simply providing the best of assistance to their clients, then you aren't saying defendants really have the right, because if the lawyer gets the guy off, they are scumbags, meaning that the client wasn't really innocent and nothing would convince you otherwise.

	01-04-2005 23:15									#107
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A stingy old lawyer who had been diagnosed with a terminal illness was determined to prove wrong the saying, "You can't take it with you."

After much thought and consideration, the old ambulance-chaser finally figured out how to take at least some of his money with him when he died. He instructed his wife to go to the bank and withdraw enough money to fill two pillow cases. He then directed her to take the bags of money to the attic and leave them directly above his bed. His plan: When he passed away, he would reach out and grab the bags on his way to heaven.

Several weeks after the funeral, the deceased lawyer?s wife, up in the attic cleaning, came upon the two forgotten pillow cases stuffed with cash.

"Oh, that damn old fool," she exclaimed. "I knew he should have had me put the money in the basement."

	03-04-2005 19:15									#108
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I think Cochran will go down in history as being a good lawyer who was willing to skate as close to the border of ethics as he could for his client.

	04-04-2005 00:20									#109
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Johnny cochran was a good lawyer. But as I sit here and ponder this nobody has commented on the type of man outside the lawyer he was. Oh thats right nobody knew him as a human, Just to sob that got oj off.

	04-04-2005 00:26									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, the problem is with you. If you consider lawyers to be scumbags for simply providing the best of assistance to their clients, then you aren't saying defendants really have the right, because if the lawyer gets the guy off, they are scumbags, meaning that the client wasn't really innocent and nothing would convince you otherwise.

What are you talking about? Stop twisting my words and read exactly what I type. Defendents have a right to defense. Defending criminals is not moral.

	04-04-2005 00:34									#111
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Defending criminals is not moral hmmm thats an interesting statement. What if the person is actually innocent he is still considered a criminal to proven innocent

	04-04-2005 00:41									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Defending criminals is not moral hmmm thats an interesting statement. What if the person is actually innocent he is still considered a criminal to proven innocent

Most people are guilty. It doesn't matter - both deserve someone to defend them. I think it's immoral to just defend people because they are charged. I would have to believe that the person is innocent before I defended them, but then I wouldn't get many clients now would I?

	04-04-2005 00:53									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Most people are guilty. It doesn't matter - both deserve someone to defend them. I think it's immoral to just defend people because they are charged. I would have to believe that the person is innocent before I defended them, but then I wouldn't get many clients now would I?

You do realize that there is more to defending someone than trial work, don't you? I can't remember the percentage on how many defendents actually go to trial, so I'll have to speak anecdotally. Of the roughly 200 clients I've had in the past 7 monhts, only 13 have pursued trial. The rest were probably split 60-40 pleas/dismissals. Dismissals were due to either police/witness laziness failing to appear, or knowing that they were wrongful arrests (I had a 2 great trials ready last week, both cops failed to show) most of the time defense work is just negotiating out a plea favorable to both sides. I hardly see how that can be considered immoral.

	04-04-2005 00:58									#114
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It's decidedly not the job of a defense attorney to determine the guilt or innoncence of his client. That responsibility lies solely with the court.

	04-04-2005 01:00									#115
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Uh kid if they werent charged they wouldnt need defending.

	04-04-2005 01:37									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It's decidedly not the job of a defense attorney to determine the guilt or innoncence of his client. That responsibility lies solely with the court.

Are you trying to tell me that Cochran didn't know OJ was guilty? Give me a break. Cochran was an ******* who did **** for money and fame.

	04-04-2005 01:41									#117
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel You do realize that there is more to defending someone than trial work, don't you? I can't remember the percentage on how many defendents actually go to trial, so I'll have to speak anecdotally. Of the roughly 200 clients I've had in the past 7 monhts, only 13 have pursued trial. The rest were probably split 60-40 pleas/dismissals. Dismissals were due to either police/witness laziness failing to appear, or knowing that they were wrongful arrests (I had a 2 great trials ready last week, both cops failed to show) most of the time defense work is just negotiating out a plea favorable to both sides. I hardly see how that can be considered immoral.

I'm sure it's not.

	04-04-2005 01:43									#118
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Thats neither here nor there Im sure he didnt care if the guy was guilty. Tatic of a good lawyer dont find out let the case unfold as it does. He did it for money?, most people work for money. Fame comment on that He was already a famed attorney before oj just not on tv

	04-04-2005 01:50									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Thats neither here nor there Im sure he didnt care if the guy was guilty.

Bull. You can't just say you don't care if the guy is guilty or not. If you help him get away with murder then you are partly responsible.

	04-04-2005 02:12									#120
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what part of the statements from some of the lawyers didnt you get. They said they didnt want to know. Its their job to defend the client the best they can. And because you think in your heart oj is guilty doesnt make it true.
Im not here defending oj though it seems like it, but i am defending the man who is know dead for doing the best job he saw fit to get his client out of jail