02-04-2005 10:17									#91
	Increase Your PM Length

Accords are very good cars. It is a bit unfair to compare a 1982 Explorer to a 1992 Accord. Cars improved a lot during that decade just as they've improved a lot in the last decade.

	02-04-2005 11:03									#92
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Dissident nope, I don't think they had hemi's back then.

Actually, they were invented back in the '50s, but deemed too difficult to build with the machinery of the day.

	02-04-2005 11:30									#93
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The Hemis from the 60's and 70's were real hemi shaped heads while todays are really modified pentroof designs instead of hemi. It's all a marketing gimick since the engineering doesn't back up the hemi claim.

	02-04-2005 11:34									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If nothing else it shows the Americans build very large numbers of superior quality vehicles. You've been denying that all along and even when faced with the hard facts you still quibble. It's ok if you just want to make judges based upon your own preceptions and self bias but at least be honest enough to say you don't know what your talking about and that you just prefer to follow your own bias.

You've done nothing but post irrelevant studies (like initial quality/1st year ownership) and ignore the obvious.

You've no clue what's going on, your American patriotism is blinding you. Hondas and Toyotas are far and away more reliable and better-built and better-designed cars than Fords. It's not even close, actually.

	02-04-2005 11:37									#95
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin BUZZZ! Wrong anwser. That survey was the "Dependability" survey which measured problems which occured over the first year of ownership. They also do a long term (3 year study) as well as the intial quality study and a costumer satisfaction study. The numbers are slightly different but the rankings are largely the same in each different study.

No, that's the wrong answer.

3 years is not long term, it's still under warranty for the most part. Everyone knows that American cars tend to self-destruct after the warranty period.

As I go back to the air-conditioning vent examples, the GM quality specs just ask for a MBTF of the warranty period. They look at "average times per year" they would be adjusted according to usability studies, then extrapolate figures. They are designed to be okay while under warranty, but are "untested" after that. Why should they care, after all? GM Goodwrench Service makes them a shitload of money...

Your "vehicle dependability survey", which is the joke of the one that looks at 3-year ownership only (well within the warranty periods), still lists Ford as "below average" -- and Average that is tanked heavily by craptastic makes such as Kia, Daewoo, etc.

Even with your stupid surveys which don't really show post-warranty reliability, Ford is ranked "below average".

As I said before, Fords are not good cars. You're better off with a Honda, Toyota, Mazda, or Nissan. They are proven to be more reliable, even in your flawed 3-year study.

As for it being "scientific", I don't think it's really any more scientific than Consumer Reports. Consumer Reports has a far larger report-base than JD Powers. The only difference is Consumer Report sends out postage-paid envelopes and ask you to fill it in, then mail it in. JD Powers & Associates calls people and asks them.

They're both in the same league of scientific validity.

	02-04-2005 11:40									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Fords are about industry average. Buick, Lincoln, and Cadilliac are beter built cars then either Toyota or Honda while Saturn, GMC, Chevrolet, and Mercury are satistically ahead of every other Japanese company. They're well made cars and you just can't bring your self to admit the truth.

	02-04-2005 11:41									#97
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ford's are about industry average. Buick, Lincoln, and Cadilliac are beter built cars then either Toyota or Honda while Saturn, GMC, Chevrolet, and Mercury are satistically ahead of every other Japanese company. They're well made cars and you just can't bring your self to admit the truth.

Again -- this is while the cars are operating under warranty period. That's not really a concern, the repairs are free.

What's important is long-term reliability, and that's when the American cars really fall off the cliff rapidly.

Ever wonder why Toyotas have high resale values and Fords have terrible resale values?

	02-04-2005 12:03									#98
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Toyotas have a well deserved reputation for quality while companies like Buick, Lincoln, Cadilliac are finally reaping the benifets of a decade spent obsesively working towards higher quality. Preception always lags reality and it will take another decade or so before people realize facts on the ground have changed. Also Japanese imports keep a much tighter control on supply; they do a better job of forcasting demand and keeping production just below demand. The big three have extremely stupid union contracts which require them to keep paying workers even if they shut down production. Thus, from the company's point of view, it is better to just keep cranking out additional cars and trying to find buyers using ever larger rebaits.

That huge glut of cars means supply stays high and prices fall faster. It's simple economics which won't change until the union contracts are changed in order to decrease the over supply situation.

	02-04-2005 13:51									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Hemis from the 60's and 70's were real hemi shaped heads while todays are really modified pentroof designs instead of hemi. It's all a marketing gimick since the engineering doesn't back up the hemi claim.

I don't see having 4 cylinders shut down when not needed is a gimmick. A great way to save on gas when driving pickups.

	02-04-2005 13:56									#100
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy Hmm... I always heard it as Fu**ed Over Rebuilt Dodge

I'm originally from Utah, no one swears there..........

ACK!

	04-04-2005 12:29									#101
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dissident I don't see having 4 cylinders shut down when not needed is a gimmick. A great way to save on gas when driving pickups.

No, you misunderstand. I'm not talking about extra features like that (which are 20 years old btw) I'm talking about the shape of the engine head's combustion chamber. I real hemi has a perfect half circle which is why it is called a hemi (like hemisphere). The new engine which Chrysler is calling a hemi does not have a perfect hemi shape and instead is a modified pentroof design (which is a circle with two or four flat sides on it where the valves are located). It's not a hemi and the name is just a marketing gimic.

	04-04-2005 13:23									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

yeah it's a merketing gimick. as for the 20 year old technology, yes it is that old, but no one (at least not the american companies) could get it to work worth a damn . This one has a .42 second response time to get the other cylinders working (or not working). Much better than the old one's I'm sure.

	04-04-2005 13:26									#103
	Remove this text

Yeah, it is better as the stuff from the early 80's was a bit rough. Still all three of the big 3 have been selling this technology since the early 80's. Today's power on demand (as GM calls it) is just updated with better computers, better sensors, and better software. Same basic system though.

	04-04-2005 15:24									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

'97 Ford Ranger, 116k miles on it. Has needed regular oil changes and occassional tires.

Plan to drive it forever.

-=Vel=-

	04-04-2005 16:07									#105
	Full PM-box? Change here!

On the highway my 13 year old camry gets 32 mpg (american gallon)

	04-04-2005 18:52									#106
	Got spare money?

While I'll freely admit that Honda Accords are highly reliable on average, we had a 1996 model that wasn't exactly the paragon of reliability. Among other things, we had to fix or replace: corroded exhaust system (not just the muffler), A/C, power windows (three times!), dashboard electrical system, odometer, gas gauge and headlights (about twice as often as they should need to be changed).

	04-04-2005 19:09									#107
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Asher You've no clue what's going on, your American patriotism is blinding you. Hondas and Toyotas are far and away more reliable and better-built and better-designed cars than Fords. It's not even close, actually.

I fully agree.....with Asher (!?!?!) Also, American cars have a lack of power compared to engine liter. A japaneese 1.8 l engine produces as much if not more than a 6cyl 3.0l american engine because they're so highly tunned.
As for reliability, based my experience and working on cars all day long and seeing which runs and which breaks down the most, If I had to go from Montreal to Vancouver and I had two cars to choose form, a japaneese car that has 200k miles or an american car with the same milage, I'd choose the japaneese car without even having the time to blink.

American cars are generaly made big for no reason, big engine with small output, huge gas consumption compared to liter, poor handling and generaly give the illusion that the car has torque but is only how the first and second gear are geared. But as soon as you hit the freeway and try an 50 to 75mph, it showsz what it really has, nothing.

Spec.

	04-04-2005 19:12									#108
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Generally the lower engine output per liter has nothing to do with being poorly put together and has everything to do with wanting to save a few bucks. In Japan gasoline is expensive so companies invest in squeezing every last bit of power out of a smaller engine while in the US gasoline is cheap so it is cheaper to add power by making the engine larger. The point is this has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with design decisions.

BTW the power output per liter is usually around 10% more due to higher compression, variable valve timing, etc... The difference isn't large on your average car.

	04-04-2005 19:17									#109
	Remove this text

How long did it take most American cars to use DOHC engines compared to Honda/Toyota?

How many American cars have VVT compared to Honda/Toyota?

	04-04-2005 19:26									#110
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Dissident yeah it's a merketing gimick. as for the 20 year old technology, yes it is that old, but no one (at least not the american companies) could get it to work worth a damn . This one has a .42 second response time to get the other cylinders working (or not working). Much better than the old one's I'm sure.

HEMI didn't interest any other country than Americans because american wanted big and big and BIGGER and other countries like Germany, Japan and England knew that power wasn't everything. It'all went well until cars like the BMW 2002 and the Mini came to play. It's form this moment on that your HUGE muscle cars with truck engines started to lose race after race on regular circuits (Exeption GT-40, which is not a street car.) A Charger with 457hp was losing against a BMW with a 4 cylinder engine with 200hp cuz it could'nt handle any curves. Sadly it's the same thing today (Except for the Vette, 2005 Mustang and the new 2 seater Cady ) American cars usually have less than .80g acceleration as for FF cars the under steer like a train.

Why do you thing NASCAR is an OVAL racing event in general. Because it started off with muscle cars and those kind of cars are useless on a race track with RIGH and LEFT turns.

Any foreing car builder except for Korean chineese and russian car can build an engine that has more output with a smaller fuel consumption and a smaller liter cylinder volume than your super overated HEMI for the same price or lower.

An 8 cylinder sounds awfully nice, I agree, but I'd rather have a lighter 6cyl engine that has the same output. Better handling, braking, cornering, gas concumption, acceleration. Name it.

No american engine comes close to an RB26dett or an SR20DET or even a 3SGTE.

Spec.

	04-04-2005 19:30									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Once again design descisions. For that extra $4000 I can buy a lot of gas. In any event most people never even use the high RPM range of that DOHC motor (the only place it matters) but they just paid several thousand extra to get it. Mine is a DOHC 24V V6 but I at least flog it once in a while in any event what good is it to pay extra for something 90% of the buyers will never use?

That's why the design descision was made. You can say you disagree with the descision but that's why there are so many makes and models on the market and it has nothing to do with quality (though the simpler motor normally turns out to be more reliable in the long run).

	04-04-2005 19:31									#112
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Once again design descisions. For that extra $4000 I can buy a lot of gas. In any event most people never even use the high RPM range of that DOHC motor (the only place it matters) but they just paid several thousand extra to get it. Mine is a DOHC 24V V6 but I at least flog it once in a while in any event what good is it to pay extra for something 90% of the buyers will never use? That's why the design descision was made. You can say you disagree with the descision but that's why there are so many makes and models on the market and it has nothing to do with quality (though the simpler motor normally turns out to be more reliable in the long run).

American cars are cheap and low-tech compared to Honda/Toyota.

Always have been, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. The "hybrids" which seem high-tech that Ford has, use licensed technology from Toyota...

If the "simpler" motor turned out to be more reliable, Fords and GMs should be the most reliable things on the road. Sadly, they're far, far from it. The more complex motors from Toyota and Honda are far more reliable -- insult to injury perhaps?

	04-04-2005 19:35									#113
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Generally the lower engine output per liter has nothing to do with being poorly put together and has everything to do with wanting to save a few bucks. In Japan gasoline is expensive so companies invest in squeezing every last bit of power out of a smaller engine while in the US gasoline is cheap so it is cheaper to add power by making the engine larger. The point is this has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with design decisions. BTW the power output per liter is usually around 10% more due to higher compression, variable valve timing, etc... The difference isn't large on your average car.

OMG stop talking out of your ass. The reason why they stop making the RX7 in america is because it consummed to much gas (14.4l/100km) for a 1.3l engine. And that's a 2 rotor. They kept on making the RX7 in japan til 2002. Also we never got the 3 rotor engine (2.0b) like they have in japan for the MAzda Cosmo because it drank to much gas for america. So no, it's not to save on gas.
Reason is because a smaller engine enables a lighter car so better handling braking and so on. Technology is develloped on race tracks. What they do to increase fuel efficency is thing like Valve openings, ecu regulating, catalytic converter performance (reburn unburned gas) increase flywheel weight and guess what, make the car lighter so smaller.


Spec.

	04-04-2005 19:38									#114
	Tired of ads?

GM and DC have designed their own. Also I noticed how you've changed your tactics away from the quality argument. Good choice since you were clearly wrong on that one. BTW if we compared new models today I'm sure we'd find most of the engine outputs are with in 10% of each other when you compare like products in a similiar price range.

I'm glade you've stopped talking out of your butt about the qualty (since you have been so clearly wrong) and have moved on to other issues.

	04-04-2005 19:42									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Spec OMG stop talking out of your ass. The reason why they stop making the RX7 in america is because it consummed to much gas (14.4l/100km) for a 1.3l engine.

sorry buddy but you don't know what you're talking about. True, a ****le does consume more gas then a regular engine design but the RX-7 was discontinued in America because the Japanese Yen soared against the dollar in the 1990's and the RX-7 got priced out of the market. Sales of RX-7s crashed as the original price of $35k went up and up to the $50k-$60k range. The same thing happened to the 300ZX, the 3000GT, and the Supra (a few years later).

It's all economics my boy.

	04-04-2005 19:43									#116
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin GM and DC have designed their own. Also I noticed how you've changed your tactics away from the quality argument. Good choice since you were clearly wrong on that one.

I'm more than happy to debate it with you, if you bring a real argument to the table.

You've done nothing but spew rhetoric and deny the obvious.

Fords are not nearly as reliable as the major Japanese brands. It's just a fact of life, one that is proven by independent reports time and time again. Once the warranty period expires, the American cars have major reliability problems compared to Honda/Toyota.

This is reflected time and time again in Consumer Reports, and in resale values. You try to debunk this with reports about initial quality and "3-year ownership" (which still rank Ford below average), but that just doesn't cut it.

You lost that argument and it was going nowhere.

quote: BTW if we compared new models today I'm sure we'd find most of the engine outputs are with in 10% of each other when you compare like products in a similiar price range. I'm glade you've stopped talking out of your butt about the qualty (since you have been so clearly wrong) and have moved on to other issues.

Your patriotism is too strong to see something objectively. That's something you need to work on.

	04-04-2005 19:45									#117
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Asher If the "simpler" motor turned out to be more reliable, Fords and GMs should be the most reliable things on the road. Sadly, they're far, far from it. The more complex motors from Toyota and Honda are far more reliable -- insult to injury perhaps?

Sorry mate but I've already shown you the qualty figures. Why not just admite your basing your argument on your own bias instead of the hard facts reported by companies which track these things in a scientific way? You've been repeatedly pwned in this thread by everyone from Ming to me so give it up and just say "My name is Asher and I prefer my own bias to real facts".

	04-04-2005 19:46									#118
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin GM and DC have designed their own. Also I noticed how you've changed your tactics away from the quality argument. Good choice since you were clearly wrong on that one. BTW if we compared new models today I'm sure we'd find most of the engine outputs are with in 10% of each other when you compare like products in a similiar price range. I'm glade you've stopped talking out of your butt about the qualty (since you have been so clearly wrong) and have moved on to other issues.

Ok, I just had forgot about the quality thing.

Japaneese head gaskets and rings are usually made out of ceramic or metal, not on american cars. Head pistons on Japaneese cars are usually forged, not on american cars. Rods are usually lighter and smaller so rpms are faster, not on american cars. Wiring and wire harness is usually double wrapped and humidity controled, not on american cars. ECU timing and O2 censor are much more accurate.......


Shall I go on.....


Spec.

	04-04-2005 19:47									#119
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

And what I meant by usually is, on all cars except on small cars like the ECHO and such.


Spec.

	04-04-2005 19:47									#120
	Got spare money?

You want to compare modern cars?

Compare the 2004 Focus to the 2004 Mazda 3. This is with Ford's "modern" platform...

2.0L Mazda3: 148hp (DOHC, w/o VVT)
2.0L Ford Focus: 110hp (SOHC, w/o VVT), 130hp (DOHC, w/o VVT)

2.3L Maxda3: 160hp (DOHC, w/ VVT)
2.3L Ford Focus: 145hp (DOHC, w/o VVT)