19-04-2005 10:44									#301
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Incidently, your civil rights movement got kicked off in the courts. It was the only place the wronged could get a hearing. It didn't end there, though, which is precisely my point. People accept decisions that are ultimately decided in a democratic fashion. They aren't so willing to accept the dictates of judicial fiat.

It hasn't ended there on this issue up here either. However, I doubt the bus or school admission issues should have been overturnable by any legislature.

Either you have a Constitution that is worth more than toilet paper and courts with the balls to stand up to the mobs, or... well just hope you are in the majority in every issue that will come up during your life time.

	19-04-2005 10:51									#302
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quote: Because lower courts in 7 provinces have already made the determination that it is unconstitutional to restrict marriage to heterosexual couples. The SCoC declined to rule on the issue, but it is extremely likely that if forced to rule by the federal government appealing the lower court decisions that they would not reverse the lower courts.

Correct. The fact that the SCoC ruled that there must be one marriage law across Canada. Now, what that law contains is up to parliament. That is the role of the federal parliament to ensure that there is only one law for marriage across Canada.

Now, they affirmed that it is constitutional to allow gay marriage. They also refused to declare it unconstitutional to decline gay marriage.

That being said, we really have two paths. The first is to allow gay marriages in all provinces in Canada, the second is to allow traditional marriage in all provinces in Canada. Either is constitutional, according to the SCoC, and either is permissible for the Federal Parliament to enact.

	19-04-2005 10:52									#303
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quote: It hasn't ended there on this issue up here either.

You just said that there's no democratic avenue available to overturn the decision of the Canadian courts, save a constitutional amendment. Sounds like the issue is decided to me...

	19-04-2005 10:52									#304
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Incidently, abortion is still an issue because a lot of people think it is wrong as administered in some, many, or all cases.

Your equating civil rights and abortion falls down on the point that a reasonable person could not hold onto segregation as a reasonable policy, whereas people can be against unrestricted abortion for the same reason they are or were against slavery and segregation. A human life is being affected in an unjust way and the practice should not be allowed to continue in a willy nilly fashion.

	19-04-2005 10:54									#305
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: It hasn't ended there on this issue up here either. You just said that there's no democratic avenue available to overturn the decision of the Canadian courts, save a constitutional amendment. Sounds like the issue is decided to me...

Realistic.

A bill could be passed and punted off to the SCoC to be ruled unconstitutional.

Would you have wanted the Senate to pass a bill allowing blacks to be driven to the back of the bus, only for the Senate to be dragged through the muck of being told they were *******s?

	19-04-2005 10:55									#306
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quote: Your equating civil rights and abortion falls down on the point that a reasonable person could not hold onto segregation as a reasonable policy

Plenty of reasonable people believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and should stay that way.

	19-04-2005 10:59									#307
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quote: 70 year old people are getting married for tax and estate benefit. How is that not discriminatory if discrimination based on sexual orientation is prohibited under Section 15, which the SCoC says it is?

Because a 70 year old gay man has just as much right as a 70 year old straight man to get married to a straight 70 year old woman.

That's why.

	19-04-2005 10:59									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Your equating civil rights and abortion falls down on the point that a reasonable person could not hold onto segregation as a reasonable policy Plenty of reasonable people believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and should stay that way.

Yes, and many crackers in the South were slow to accept sitting next to a black man on the bus.

Acceptance of bigotry should not form the basis of public policy.

	19-04-2005 11:00									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Because a 70 year old gay man has just as much right as a 70 year old straight man to get married to a straight 70 year old woman. That's why.

Ben, meet tail. Chase.

	19-04-2005 11:02									#310
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So I'm a bigot NYE?

Yall going to say that to my face?

	19-04-2005 11:02									#311
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'White people are free to marry white people and black people are free to marry black people. Mixing the two would be... disasterous!'

Unfortunately, I would like to put that in the 19th century among modern nations, but I can't.

	19-04-2005 11:03									#312
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quote: Yes, and many crackers in the South were slow to accept sitting next to a black man on the bus. Acceptance of bigotry should not form the basis of public policy.

Well, this is obviously a waste of time. Everyone who doesn't agree with you is a bigot...

	19-04-2005 11:04									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So I'm a bigot NYE? Yall going to say that to my face?

Unfortunately, Ben, you are if you really think your religious morals should invade other people's lives and families.

I will say it to your face.

	19-04-2005 11:07									#314
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Yes, and many crackers in the South were slow to accept sitting next to a black man on the bus. Acceptance of bigotry should not form the basis of public policy. Well, this is obviously a waste of time. Everyone who doesn't agree with you is a bigot...

Maybe it is, if you can't see why interfering with the lives of other people based on a 'traditional' proscription, that isn't even agreed to by all religions, wouldn't be the basis of justice for all.

	19-04-2005 11:18									#315
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I guess I'm just a little more cautious about how I approach changes to venerable institutions, nye. How conservative of me...

Anyway, here's a good piece on why changes to social institutions should be carefully considered. I think its interesting and thought-provoking, but then again I am just a bigot.

http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/005244.html

	19-04-2005 11:25									#316
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Oh joy. He throws up his hands in a pig pool of apathy.

Oh more joy, he then launches into an equation of gay mariage with income tax.

Do you mean to torture me with having to read all that drivel?

	19-04-2005 11:32									#317
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quote: Oh joy. He throws up his hands in a pig pool of apathy.

If you hadn't noticed, I've been pretty apathetic on this subject for a long time. I'm pro-civil unions and apathetic on gay marriage. I would like to see a compelling reason to alter the centuries old definition of marriage, however, which has so far eluded me.

As for the article, you're under no obligation to read it if you don't want to, so stop whining...

	19-04-2005 11:37									#318
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Oh joy. He throws up his hands in a pig pool of apathy. If you hadn't noticed, I've been pretty apathetic on this subject for a long time. I'm pro-civil unions and apathetic on gay marriage. I would like to see a compelling reason to alter the centuries old definition of marriage, however, which has so far eluded me.

Well, if you don't recognise basic human rights, then I could probably drive a mac truck over yours and your neighbours without you noticing.

	19-04-2005 11:39									#319
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I like the part where he equates welfare with encouraging single mothers to the detriment of society.

Is this guy a character from Dickens brought to life?

	19-04-2005 11:40									#320
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quote: Well, if you don't recognise basic human rights, then I could probably drive a mac truck over yours and your neighbours without you noticing.

I've yet to see a convincing reason why I should consider the ability of homosexual couples to get married to be a "basic human right".

	19-04-2005 11:45									#321
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Can you follow the ball?

Sexual orientation is a basic human right in Canada.

Discrimination based on basic human characteristics is unconstitutional in Canada.

Banning gay marriages is unconstitutional in Canada so long as there are any benefits that accrue to marriage by decision of the state.

Clear?

	19-04-2005 11:48									#322
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You think I'm talking about Canada?

You guys don't even have a proper freedom of the press, so why should I give two shits about what your constitution says about anything? I'm only interested in the Canadian example as a possible glimpse into the future of the gay marriage debate in America...

	19-04-2005 11:50									#323
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Solomon might cleave the issue in two by seperating religious marriage from unions subject to government recognition.

Unfortunately, the zealots are up in arms about Joe and Bob having a ceremony at the local United Church.

In other words, the Catholics and Anglicans are upset with the neighbours, again.

I would have thought they'd all have learned their lesson some 4 or 500 years ago. But who can bet how stupid some people will be?

	19-04-2005 11:52									#324
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You think I'm talking about Canada? You guys don't even have a proper freedom of the press, so why should I give two shits about what your constitution says about anything? I'm only interested in the Canadian example as a possible glimpse into the future of the gay marriage debate in America...

Well, you could be a jackass who posted in a Canadian thread where our laws and Constitution were being discussed, and have been talking about Lower Bokovina all this time.

However, that would just make you one silly son of a *****.

	19-04-2005 11:56									#325
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I'm still can't believe you thought I would care about what the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has to say about anything. Jesus, I'm older than it is...

	19-04-2005 11:57									#326
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Incidently, I am waiting for an explanation for how your republic went wrong when Congress did not override the courts and mandate that blacks sit at the back of the bus.

Can you produce one?

How undemocratic!

	19-04-2005 12:01									#327
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I'm still can't believe you thought I would care about what the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has to say about anything. Jesus, I'm older than it is...

I couldn't give a **** if you gave a ****, but I would have thought your dignity would need the support of actually knowing what the **** you were talking about before launching in.

	19-04-2005 12:01									#328
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There wasn't a sufficient amount of public support for such an action, so I fail to see how the lack of effort on Congress' part to pass an absurd hypothetical law shows the undemocratic nature of the civil rights movement.

quote: but I would have thought your dignity would need the support of actually knowing what the **** you were talking about before launching in.

I never claimed to be talking about the Canadian issue specifically; I thought it was pretty obvious that I was talking about very general issues (undemocratic judicial legislation, dangers of tampering with social institutions) from the very get go. That's why I found it funny that you thought a specific reference to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms would somehow matter to me.

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression about what we were talking about...

	19-04-2005 12:03									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Correct. The fact that the SCoC ruled that there must be one marriage law across Canada. Now, what that law contains is up to parliament. That is the role of the federal parliament to ensure that there is only one law for marriage across Canada. Now, they affirmed that it is constitutional to allow gay marriage. They also refused to declare it unconstitutional to decline gay marriage. That being said, we really have two paths. The first is to allow gay marriages in all provinces in Canada, the second is to allow traditional marriage in all provinces in Canada. Either is constitutional, according to the SCoC, and either is permissible for the Federal Parliament to enact.

Are you being deliberately dense? They didn't rule that not having gay marriage was unconstitutional because they didn't have to. They'd rather let the politicians draft a new law. If the federal government forces their hand, however, you will see how quickly they rule it unconstitutional.

And then you're going to have a crisis on your hands.

But nothing would please me more than to see Harper try that.

	19-04-2005 12:04									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten There wasn't a sufficient amount of public support for such an action, so I fail to see how the lack of effort on Congress' part to pass an absurd hypothetical law shows the undemocratic nature of the civil rights movement.

Do you care to give your idiots view of the support for the use of the notwithstanding clause in the debate that is under discussion, or are you just shooting your mouth off?