13-04-2005 11:13									#211
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Socially progressive conservatives.

	13-04-2005 11:15									#212
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quote: Then there is also the point that some larger religious sects are attempting to tell smaller religious sects who they can and cannot perform marriage ceremonies for.

Really. I didn't know you supported polygamy NYE.

	13-04-2005 11:18									#213
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It might help to know that the things Canadians value over all else are social peace and sound government.

To those ends there are some who will go to great lengths to reconcile banker like attention to the pennies and pounds with the need for the state to both look after the most unfortunate and stay the **** out of the rest of our business at the same time.

It's a short trip from there to the realisation that Bob marrying Doug is no skin off my back and the state should get the hell out of the way.

	13-04-2005 11:19									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Really. I didn't know you supported polygamy NYE.

No, that's society saying that exploitation of thirteen or sixteen year old girls is not OK.

Nice try though.

	13-04-2005 11:28									#215
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quote: You have read entrails that suggest a majority of Canadians favour federal legislation against gay marriage? IOW, do you have a poll to base that on?

Yes.

http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/vie...marriage-050410

	13-04-2005 11:29									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Really. I didn't know you supported polygamy NYE.

whose lives would be better if polygamy would exist?

JM

	13-04-2005 11:31									#217
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Jon:

The argument that it is wrong for society to restrict marriage because of the desires of small religious gatherings must also permit polygamy as well as gay marriage.

The real question is why should the beliefs of any religion dictate the policy of the country?

	13-04-2005 11:33									#218
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quote: But guess what, Ben, it isn't they who will burn, it is the chances of the Conservatives to form governments that go up in smoke. Sponsorship scandals be damned. I fear most Central Canadians would prefer the NDP with the balance of power over the Liberals to keep them honest than would favour a socially regressive government to come to power.

And kill NAFTA?

	13-04-2005 11:37									#219
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Socially progressive conservatives.

Thanks.

	13-04-2005 11:38									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Jon: The argument that it is wrong for society to restrict marriage because of the desires of small religious gatherings must also permit polygamy as well as gay marriage. The real question is why should the beliefs of any religion dictate the policy of the country?

Only people on glue would go with that argument.

Polygamy is outlawed as exploitative. In other words, it is harmful to the young or foolhardy who enter into it.

Gay marriage is not the same situation, and only the desperate would reach for polygamy as a defence of proscriptions that courts in seven of ten provinces have said are unconstitutional.

Are we ruled by law, or bigots?

	13-04-2005 11:39									#221
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quote: whose lives would be better if polygamy would exist?

Mormons, conservative Muslims and other people whose religious beliefs support polygamy.

quote: In other words, it is harmful to the young or foolhardy who enter into it.

The same could be said for marriage in general.

	13-04-2005 11:41									#222
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having people be in stable relationships has proven benefits to society and the people in the stable relationships

humans have shown themselves to favor monogamous relationships (well, those who don't favor them don't form stable relationships)

humans in stable relationships do better also

so there is a reason for the government to support marriage (or to recongize it), and also reason for the government to recongize relationships of homosexuals (which it seems fair to me to call marriage also, but honestly the name is not a big deal to me), but not to recongize or support polygamy (I am not saying that the government should get into peoples lives and stop polygamous behavior, I am jsut saying it shouldn't support it)

Jon Miller
(I use to be against marriage and family because it seemed to be a tool of oppression, but than I read that those societies that seeked to get rid of it inevitably found that the youth in those societies were disatisfied with the relationships and wanted to enter into monogamous style relationships and families)

(I use to be more heavily communist also..)

	13-04-2005 11:43									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And kill NAFTA?

Oh, look, a right wing scare tactic.

The NDP are no more likely to kill NAFTA if they actually got into a position of power than the Church is likely to elect a Muslim as pope.

	13-04-2005 11:44									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: whose lives would be better if polygamy would exist? Mormons, conservative Muslims and other people whose religious beliefs support polygamy.

so you are saying that most women in muslim/mormon house holds are eager for more women to be added into the marriage?

they are often OK with it, and will at times even argue for it, but one can rarely see any advantage for them (They are definitely getting less attention and the relationship is unwaited)

also this goes against my conclusion, which was through study although I am sure some exist who disagree with me, that humans favor, and are favored by, monogamy (or at least monogamous relationships)

Jon Miller

	13-04-2005 11:46									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller (I use to be more heavily communist also..)

And then you became Canadian. Extremes are bad for you.

	13-04-2005 11:48									#226
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quote: so you are saying that most women in muslim/mormon house holds are eager for more women to be added into the marriage?

How would I know? I'm not a Muslim/Mormon woman and not really fond of assumptions...

	13-04-2005 11:49									#227
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quote: The NDP are no more likely to kill NAFTA if they actually got into a position of power than the Church is likely to elect a Muslim as pope.

They've had atheists, so I guess the NDP will kill NAFTA.

Seriously though, the NDP have plenty of other economic problems that discourage people in central canada from voting for them.

NAFTA is just the most obvious and telling case. I really think they believe NAFTA to be an evil.

It's not so much that they repeal NAFTA, but they can sure gum up the works.

	13-04-2005 11:50									#228
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I haven't talked to every, or even most, or read about the oppinions of every or even most

but those that I do know of, don't seem to prefer being in a multirelationship house

there is also my basic point about monogamy... (which you totally ignored)

Jon Miller
(btw, my observations were inconclusive as to whether long term monogamy or serial mongamy is more favored)

	13-04-2005 11:52									#229
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quote: there is also my basic point about monogamy... (which you totally ignored)

What was I supposed to say about it? It was your opinion, backed up with some unsubstantiated facts...

	13-04-2005 11:54									#230
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backed up by my study of communes and utopias and the like (many of which got rid of marriage and such things.. but by the time the youth reached sexual ages they started pairing up and generally the commune/whatever ended not to long after that)

Jon Miller

	13-04-2005 11:54									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi They've had atheists, so I guess the NDP will kill NAFTA. Seriously though, the NDP have plenty of other economic problems that discourage people in central canada from voting for them. NAFTA is just the most obvious and telling case. I really think they believe NAFTA to be an evil. It's not so much that they repeal NAFTA, but they can sure gum up the works.

I agree they might throw a few spanners into the works of NA peace and prosperity, based on rhetoric. However, I think the realities would mallow them rather quickly on most points. Still, I would be concerned about the reaction from the South to the increased throwing of pooh at the White House.

	13-04-2005 11:56									#232
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quote: backed up by my study of communes and utopias and the like

I know nothing of your study, so I don't see why it should hold any weight with me.

	13-04-2005 11:56									#233
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also from observations...

I have never seen of, or read of, or in any other way observed, one person falling more and more in love with two or more people...

always would already be in love with one person, and as interest grew in another person (as they fell in love with them) their interest in the first person decreased...

Jon Miller

	13-04-2005 11:57									#234
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If anti progress is the anvil around the Tories' necks, anti Americanism would be that around the necks of the NDP.

Either party that can shed the dead weight first stands to gain a lot on the electoral landscape.

	13-04-2005 11:57									#235
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quote: Only people on glue would go with that argument. Polygamy is outlawed as exploitative. In other words, it is harmful to the young or foolhardy who enter into it. Gay marriage is not the same situation, and only the desperate would reach for polygamy as a defence of proscriptions that courts in seven of ten provinces have said are unconstitutional. Are we ruled by law, or bigots?

Fine. Let Canadians decide whether they should permit gay marriage or not. Surely you can agree that the parliament ought to have the final say.

What I do not see as different, is that there are religious groups arguing for polygamy along the same lines, as groups that say they ought to be allowed to bless these marriages.

If it is good to support one group, then why is it also good to quash the other?

	13-04-2005 11:58									#236
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

quote: backed up by my study of communes and utopias and the like

I know nothing of your study, so I don't see why it should hold any weight with me. [/QUOTE

I wrote some essays, I will see if I can find them

if not, I think that anyoen elses study of that subject, if you are observant of what I noticed, would see the same as I (although interpretations I admit might be different, there might be some other that others think is more probable)

Jon Miller

	13-04-2005 11:59									#237
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Or maybe the Greens will come up the middle and send both to the graveyards of discarded dreams.

	13-04-2005 12:00									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Fine. Let Canadians decide whether they should permit gay marriage or not. Surely you can agree that the parliament ought to have the final say.

I agree with this

judges should not in general make up legislation (of course both sides of any issue generally are in favor of this (see republicans in the US))

Jon Miller

	13-04-2005 12:05									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Avatars. I think the Liberals are going to find Quebec an uphill battle, when the Tories are outpolling them.

avatar my ass

	13-04-2005 12:11									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Fine. Let Canadians decide whether they should permit gay marriage or not. Surely you can agree that the parliament ought to have the final say. What I do not see as different, is that there are religious groups arguing for polygamy along the same lines, as groups that say they ought to be allowed to bless these marriages. If it is good to support one group, then why is it also good to quash the other?

No, I cannot. I could not accept that Parliament has the final say if they decided to pass a bill allowing slavery. That is why we have courts. That is why we firmed up the common law and our legal heritage in a constitution. That document is now the supreme law of the land. No longer is it Parliament, and in fact Parliament in Ottawa never was. Westminster was. Now the Constitution is.

The reason that gay marrige is not the same as polygamy is mostly that gay marriage is no different from any other marriage in any meaningful way. It is between two adults who enter into it willingly and with equal expectations of benefit.

The same cannot be said of polygamy. First, the women who enter into these things are seldom if ever adults in any sense of the word except that they may be bleeding once a month. Secondly, it is extremely one-sided as to do with benefits. How many ways do you cut the pension of the recently deceased? Which child of which bride get shut out for those of the favourite?

There are good reasons why polygamy is outlawed. There are no good reasons to continue to stand in the way of gay marriage.