08-04-2005 22:16									#181
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America is the cradle of religious freedom.

	08-04-2005 22:40									#182
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quote: And since Paul never had any contact with Christ, we assume he's quoting accurately...why?

Let's see, one of the foremost persecutors of the church shows up on the Christian doorstops to convert, testifying he has seen the risen Christ appear to him.

I think that counts as having some contact with Christ.

Now, the reason why I assume he is quoting correctly, is because he quotes word for word what Matthew and Mark say about the two becoming one flesh.

	08-04-2005 22:41									#183
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quote: Originally posted by DanS To be fair, there are probably other western countries that are more religious than the US. Maybe Americans are just poseurs. (Public displays of religion are taboo in many European countries.)

Actually, church attendance in Western Europe is much lower than in the US, so attitudes about religion in the public sphere is not the only reason.

Oh, and I find it funny that Babtists, who 200 years ago were the biggest supporters of seperation of church and state, are now crazy fundies who want to turn the US into a theocracy.

	08-04-2005 22:43									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi testifying he has seen the risen Christ appear to him. I think that counts as having some contact with Christ.

Self Pwned

	08-04-2005 22:46									#185
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It was enough to convince the Christians that they ought to accept the testimony of Paul.

Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 08-04-2005 at 22:56

	08-04-2005 22:52									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly And since Paul never had any contact with Christ, we assume he's quoting accurately...why? My favorite scene in The Last Temptation of Christ -- one of my favorite movies -- is the scene scene within Christ's "temptation," when he meets Paul (played with a fundie-preacher accent by Harry Dean Stanton). As Paul extols teh wonder of the resurrected Christ, Christ protests that he's still alive, to which Paul says, in effect, "I've got the powerful story; I don't actually need you." Well, exactly.

For all their disagreements, Paul had the support of Peter.

	09-04-2005 00:07									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Actually, church attendance in Western Europe is much lower than in the US, so attitudes about religion in the public sphere is not the only reason. Oh, and I find it funny that Babtists, who 200 years ago were the biggest supporters of seperation of church and state, are now crazy fundies who want to turn the US into a theocracy.

Perhaps both something to do with the reasons for many people to come to america:
"Being persecuted in Europe because of their religion"

200 years ago where the memory of this persecution was still fresh in the Baptists who came to america, and they (understandably) wanted strict separation of church and state, as they knew which could happen if church and state work too close together (especially to those minority religions who are not tolerated by the state)
Well, now things are different, as Baptists and other protestant churches in America probably have real influence (and would be on the winning side if religion and state would unite )

	09-04-2005 00:19									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Actually, church attendance in Western Europe is much lower than in the US, so attitudes about religion in the public sphere is not the only reason. Oh, and I find it funny that Babtists, who 200 years ago were the biggest supporters of seperation of church and state, are now crazy fundies who want to turn the US into a theocracy.

Probably cause they dont think banning gay marriage and abortions, or even teaching creationism, are the hallmarks of theocracy.

	09-04-2005 00:24									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse you mean the religious right that didn't exist 20 years ago?

They were just as religious, they just didnt vote rightwing. Most fundies were southerners, working class, or both, and most voted Democrat. Following both regional tradition and class interest. Why wouldnt a working class fundie have voted for FDR? They started to veer away with the civil rights revolution, and then with the cultural conflicts that emerged in the post war period, esp since the 1960's.

	09-04-2005 00:25									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Let's see, one of the foremost persecutors of the church shows up on the Christian doorstops to convert, testifying he has seen the risen Christ appear to him. I think that counts as having some contact with Christ. Now, the reason why I assume he is quoting correctly, is because he quotes word for word what Matthew and Mark say about the two becoming one flesh.

basar echad - thats straight from bereishit, which Saul/Paul certainly knew, although he seems to follow the Gospel interpretation of it.

	09-04-2005 01:08									#191
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quote: Oh, and I find it funny that Babtists, who 200 years ago were the biggest supporters of seperation of church and state, are now crazy fundies who want to turn the US into a theocracy.

The separation of church and state is a modern concept that has little to do with the US political system. Some people of the time were against the government establishment of religion, so we have prohibitions against that. They were all for religion establishing government, as George Washington made clear.

	09-04-2005 05:24									#192
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I don't doubt that religious observance has always been a big part of American life. The point is it has fallen away dramatically in other Western countries over the past half century.

	09-04-2005 05:59									#193
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its because we don't have the history of state run churchs...

JM

	09-04-2005 07:02									#194
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that could have a lot to do with it

	09-04-2005 07:58									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST Perhaps both something to do with the reasons for many people to come to america: "Being persecuted in Europe because of their religion" 200 years ago where the memory of this persecution was still fresh in the Baptists who came to america, and they (understandably) wanted strict separation of church and state, as they knew which could happen if church and state work too close together (especially to those minority religions who are not tolerated by the state) Well, now things are different, as Baptists and other protestant churches in America probably have real influence (and would be on the winning side if religion and state would unite )

Actually the Baptists were founded in Massachusetts and were forced to flee to Rhode Island to escape persecution by the Puritan churches in the Bay colony. The Baptists objected to the enslavement of the native americans. Eventually they were forced south, where they became staunch proponents of enslavement of the American negro.

After the American revolution a number of states did indeed attempt to establish state religions. The adoption of the Constitution and its Bill of Rights reversed this trend, as state legislatures followed the example of the national governm,ent. One by one states nullified the statutes establishing their state churches.

	09-04-2005 14:22									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Actually the Baptists were founded in Massachusetts and were forced to flee to Rhode Island to escape persecution by the Puritan churches in the Bay colony. The Baptists objected to the enslavement of the native americans.

Uhh, there were Baptists on mainland Europe and in Elizabethan, Jacobean and Carolingian England. Before the colonization of the Eastern seaboard of North America by other Separatist groups and Puritans.

	09-04-2005 14:57									#197
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yeah - thats what I thought too

	09-04-2005 15:00									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse yeah - thats what I thought too

How synchronous of you.

(David Blaine mode):

'Vot are you sinking off, now ?'

	09-04-2005 15:19									#199
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Anabaptists and the holy thong

	09-04-2005 15:36									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Anabaptists and the holy thong

Egads, sir !


I was thinking of the Anabaptists and the Sack of Munster ! Although there's no record of the holy thong cradling the sack...

	09-04-2005 18:53									#201
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Uhh, there were Baptists on mainland Europe and in Elizabethan, Jacobean and Carolingian England. Before the colonization of the Eastern seaboard of North America by other Separatist groups and Puritans.

The Baptist churches of the United States were originally founded by Roger Williams, a Massachusetts preacher who protested a number of policies of the Church of Christ, the official church of the Massachusetts colony. He took a group of followers a founded his own colony, Rhode Island.

There are churches in the US founded by European Anabaptists. The Church of the Bretheran comes to my mind. It is the descendant of the Moravian church. The major Baptist denominations in the US though are actually derived from Roger William's group.

	09-04-2005 19:38									#202
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Egads, sir ! I was thinking of the Anabaptists and the Sack of Munster ! Although there's no record of the holy thong cradling the sack...

I can't help but think of the Life of Brian when I think of Anabaptists.

	09-04-2005 19:46									#203
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You forget about John the baptist! For that matter, even Adam was baptized... And what do you think the Flood was anyway?

	09-04-2005 19:47									#204
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wtf are you on about?

	09-04-2005 19:57									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Brent And what do you think the Flood was anyway?

A highly fictionalized myth that drew inspiration from Sumerian (and other cultures) tales about the flooding of the Black Sea basin c. 8,000 BC.

	09-04-2005 21:30									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove There are churches in the US founded by European Anabaptists. The Church of the Bretheran comes to my mind. It is the descendant of the Moravian church.

Yeah, the Mennonites are another such group that exists in the US, as are the Hutterites. They tend to be very conservative, pacifistic groups. I went to a Mennonite church during my youth.

	10-04-2005 03:40									#207
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*cough* you freak

	10-04-2005 04:52									#208
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Says the newly appointed Cardinal de Sade himself!

	10-04-2005 05:27									#209
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Oh yes scoff now - just wait until we inquire into your beliefs about the eucharist

	16-04-2005 00:37									#210
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what's the deal with this black/white smoke?

couldn't they use use a telephone to say they have selected a new pope?

It's more environmentally friendly.