13-07-2005 08:36									#61
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

?

We're there.

CivIRC, not apolyton IRC?

#babembassy channel?

	13-07-2005 09:08									#62
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Interesting, trusting perspective that Snoopy has regarding Paddy and BoH's motives and motivation against DR

	13-07-2005 10:29									#63
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by skrobism So they don't have Feudalism? I am confused. I thought E_T said that he actually sent it. ?????

To clear it up

At the time that I had played the turn, Euph was NOt able to receive feudalism, as they were not in MA at the time (they still had to accept currency from BOH to get there). On the next turn played, buy either us or BoH(if we had sent the tech to them accepted, which we didn't) Feudalism could then be sent to them.

It's a function of order of turn play. Euph is before BoH and us.

E_T

	13-07-2005 20:04									#64
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Thank Inanna for the turn order.

	13-07-2005 20:08									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Very good.

Beta, I've got MSN working AND through work's firewalls. Hooray!

skrobism@hotmail.com

I should be ok for a chat tonight with Eu.

	13-07-2005 23:58									#66
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Kloreep - do you have a log of the chat - or can you give us a thumbnail sketch?

	14-07-2005 00:01									#67
	Increase Your PM Length

The log is in the Euphorica thread.

Edit: Heh, this IS the Euphorica thread even though we're discussing DR. Look on page 2.

	14-07-2005 00:02									#68
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Huh, that's funny... I could swear I posted it. Hang on.

	14-07-2005 00:04									#69
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm not sure what happened, here it is now.

quote: Start of #babembassy buffer: Tue Jul 12 23:57:47 2005 * Now talking in #babembassy * Retrieving #babembassy modes... * Kloreep sets mode: +k feudfeud * Kloreep sets mode: +p * Kloreep sets mode: +n -irc.boadicea.civirc.com:@#babembassy- Kloreep invited E_T into the channel. * E_T has joined #babembassy [E_T] hey [Kloreep] Hi [Kloreep] E-mailed snoopy, he may show up here [Kloreep] Or may not, dunne [22:15] * snoopy369 has joined #babembassy [22:15] [snoopy369] lo [22:15] [Kloreep] Hi [22:15] * Kloreep sets mode: +oo E_T snoopy369 [22:16] [snoopy369] thx [22:16] [Kloreep] So, do you have any idea why BOH pulled this card? [22:16] [Kloreep] We're trying to figure out in the forum why they did it now [22:16] [snoopy369] I understand [22:16] [snoopy369] don't like it, mind you [22:16] [snoopy369] very much don't like it [22:16] [snoopy369] but I know why they did. [22:16] [snoopy369] Well, know why they are pulling back anyway [22:17] [snoopy369] not why they were such asses about it [22:17] [snoopy369] For that ... you may have to contact Freud or Jung ... [22:17] [Kloreep] [22:17] [E_T] Did you know that they want Feud for the Gov? [22:17] [snoopy369] Their number crunchers think the Antioch attack is now a mistake [22:17] [snoopy369] oh yes [22:17] [snoopy369] so do we [22:17] [E_T] K, we didn't [22:17] [snoopy369] we're going to ask you to send it to us, actually [22:17] [snoopy369] they told us in the same email as you, but i think we guessed it [22:17] [snoopy369] earlier [22:18] [E_T] we have no problem, as with you not having horses, we had figured that you would defiately need it [22:18] [Kloreep] Since they had traded for Monarchy from us, we thought that was going to be it [22:18] [Kloreep] So, did they contact you beforehand about this? [22:18] [snoopy369] No. [22:18] [Kloreep] Or did it come out of the blue for you guys too? [22:18] [Kloreep] Ah. [22:18] [snoopy369] That's a lot of the difficulty for us... [22:18] [snoopy369] that, and the tone of the post [22:18] [Kloreep] Yes. [22:18] [snoopy369] Anyway, they think the antioch attack is a mistake, based on the intel about what's in the city [22:19] [snoopy369] I think they have the forces to destroy antioch, at least on average [22:19] [Kloreep] Interesting [22:19] [snoopy369] honestly it comes down to, Ljube (and probably others) is a very cautious player [22:19] [Kloreep] We've gotten nothing from them since the message [22:19] [snoopy369] they don't want to take chances [22:19] [snoopy369] and admittedly they could lose a lot at antioch [22:19] [snoopy369] but they could also win ... at least 50/50 odds if not better of winning [22:19] [snoopy369] and if they destroy antioch? then DR is done [22:19] [E_T] what Intel do you have? [22:20] [snoopy369] and if they fail, but do serious damage? DR can't do anything to us for 20-30 turns [22:20] [snoopy369] a third party did a recon of the city for us (in exchange for gold) [22:20] [snoopy369] exact knowledge, I believe, of the contents of the city [22:20] [E_T] what did you find? [22:20] [snoopy369] I forget the exact details, but it's something like 1 spearmen 6 immortals + some minor [2 defense units [22:20] [E_T] and when was it done? [22:20] [snoopy369] just this past turn, after DR's turn I think [22:21] [snoopy369] you send to DR, right? [22:21] [E_T] yeah [22:21] [snoopy369] yeh then definitely after DR's turn [22:21] [E_T] AM or LB [22:21] [snoopy369] BoH has over 20 units there, according to Ljube [22:21] [snoopy369] well of course [22:21] [Kloreep] Over 20 units? [22:21] [Kloreep] How many offensive? [22:21] [snoopy369] i'm not sure if the third party wants to be identified... not even sure if BoH knows about it [22:21] [snoopy369] that's what he said [22:21] [snoopy369] not sure [22:21] [snoopy369] but still [22:21] [snoopy369] many of the immortals are injured, 2-3 HP [22:21] [snoopy369] nothing over 4hp, i believe [22:22] [Kloreep] Yeah, still... [22:22] [Kloreep] So they've contacted you since posting that? [22:22] [snoopy369] they have at least 50/50 shot [22:22] [snoopy369] yes i had an hour long frustrating conversation with Ljube [22:22] [snoopy369] he fails to see how CM's post was frustrating or offensive [22:22] [snoopy369] he says it's "just the facts" [22:22] [E_T] Well, as we said, when we attacked, fortune favors the bold [22:22] [Kloreep] Yeah, it is just the facts. [22:22] [Kloreep] We saw it as quite a factual betrayal. [22:22] [E_T] do they have any Cats in that city? [22:23] [snoopy369] They have I think 2 cats in the city [22:23] * ShogunGunner has joined #babembassy [22:23] [snoopy369] yes, ET, I agree [22:23] [snoopy369] they are unwilling to take chances [22:23] [E_T] Hmmm [22:23] [snoopy369] i'm not even sure what the concern isn [22:23] [snoopy369] for them [22:23] [snoopy369] DR couldn't possibly attack them [22:23] [snoopy369] if they tried, we'd destroy them [22:23] [snoopy369] because they'd have to empty their lands to do it, and be very far from the front ... [22:23] [Kloreep] Do you think they have a deal with DR? [22:23] [snoopy369] I don't think so [22:24] [snoopy369] Paddy is generally honorable [22:24] [E_T] only 2, you use 2 strong defenders to trigger them, then attack with others [22:24] [Kloreep] Paddy is only one person, though... [22:24] [snoopy369] yes E-T I know that's why i don't worry about them [22:24] [snoopy369] Paddy would tell us, I think [22:24] [snoopy369] they may be Horde, but he's still the Khan [22:24] [E_T] thing is, if they don't attack now, then they can reinforce [22:24] [snoopy369] and he still controls the ultimate actions, even if he has to bow to some of their opinions [22:24] [snoopy369] yes i know [22:24] [snoopy369] and our sacrifice is worthless if they don't attack now [22:25] [E_T] their GA production is very good, surpising while in Despotism [22:25] [Kloreep] If Paddy is so honorable, though... [22:25] [snoopy369] i've made it clear to them that we are more than slightly unhappy with them about it ... [22:25] [Kloreep] As you say, your sacrifice is worthless if they don't [22:25] [snoopy369] Honorable doesn't mean they are entirely acting as they should [22:25] [E_T] and ours [22:25] [snoopy369] just that they won't backstab us [22:25] [snoopy369] yes ... [22:25] [snoopy369] i do wish you guys had a few more units but understand your priority is not the same as ours in this [22:25] [snoopy369] how many more do you have available, btw? [22:26] [snoopy369] this in theory could affect BoH, if we can promise them a second waev shortly thereafter that they would help out by attacking even in a loss [22:26] [Kloreep] Yes, I would agree it was not a big sacrifice. Feud is a big part of our sacrifice as I see it. [22:26] [snoopy369] lol [22:26] [E_T] and the tone of the last e-mails makes us think that they might be wanting to find an excuse to be at odd with us [22:26] [snoopy369] They haven't been real happy with you for a long time -- they are very single minded, for all they are horde, and they don't see you as being the same [22:27] [E_T] why aren't they happy, what have we done to make them that way? [22:27] [ShogunGunner] yes, what did we do to upset them? [22:27] [snoopy369] like i said, we understand that you don't have the same drive to destroy DR as we do - not the necessity Euphorica does, nor the ... psychosis? ... Paddy/BoH does [22:27] [snoopy369] They think, I believe, that you should have committed a lot more units to this [22:28] [Kloreep] I'm beginning to think the same of them. [22:28] [Kloreep] But it's true we have not been the war machine you two have been [22:28] [E_T] we didn't have them, and now, we are looking at a huge Barb Uprising and not really prepaired (one more turn....) [22:28] * snoopy369 sets mode: +SG [22:28] [snoopy369] hmm [22:28] [snoopy369] i haven't IRce'd in a whyle [22:29] [snoopy369] log/ [22:29] [snoopy369] rofl [22:29] [Kloreep] ? [22:29] [Kloreep] I'm logging BTW [22:29] [Kloreep] So I can send you the full thing when we're done [22:29] [snoopy369] was trying to op SG [22:29] [snoopy369] oh cool [22:29] [Kloreep] Ah [22:30] [snoopy369] i'm probably logging also [22:30] * Kloreep sets mode: +o ShogunGunner [22:30] [snoopy369] somehow did mode +SG on the channel [22:30] [ShogunGunner] que? [22:30] [Kloreep] Not sure what those options do [22:30] [snoopy369] hmm [22:30] [Kloreep] But no one's been kicked yet [22:30] [snoopy369] i forget also, as i said been a while [22:30] [snoopy369] used to IRC all the time [22:30] [snoopy369] played Planetarion for a couple of rounds [22:30] [snoopy369] anywho [22:30] [snoopy369] [22:31] * snoopy369 sets mode: +s-p [22:31] [snoopy369] hmm [22:31] [snoopy369] nevermind [22:31] [snoopy369] i'll stop trying [22:31] [snoopy369] *-) [22:31] [Kloreep] [22:31] [Kloreep] Not sure what the difference is between those two [22:31] [Kloreep] Only that only one can be set at a time [22:31] * snoopy369 sets mode: +p-s [22:31] * snoopy369 sets mode: +t-n [22:32] * snoopy369 sets mode: +n [22:32] [snoopy369] hehe [22:32] [snoopy369] forget which letter goes to which mIRC name [22:32] [snoopy369] got it right now [22:32] [snoopy369] anywho [22:32] [snoopy369] back on topic ... sorry i'm tired [22:32] [Kloreep] np [22:32] [Kloreep] Sorry, I'm a bit distracted [22:32] [Kloreep] C3C ISDG first turn [22:32] [snoopy369] ahhh [22:32] [snoopy369] you playing? [22:32] [Kloreep] Following along, yes [22:32] [snoopy369] cool [22:33] [Kloreep] Anyway... [22:33] [snoopy369] anywho [22:33] * ShogunGunner has quit IRC (Client exited) [22:33] [snoopy369] DR's opinion (per Ljube anyway): [22:33] [E_T] want to join our team for the final round? [22:33] [snoopy369] DR will pull back, because they don't want to do anything dangerous, and wait for Chivalry [22:33] [Kloreep] Perhaps [22:33] [snoopy369] then upon chivalry, a mass of keshiks and riders will destroy DR [22:33] [snoopy369] now [22:33] [Kloreep] If BOH stays in the picture [22:33] [snoopy369] i don't disagree with keshiks and riders destroying DR [22:33] [snoopy369] but [22:33] [Kloreep] ...but we could destroy or at least cripple now [22:34] [snoopy369] it seems as if they want to upgrade their horsemen to keshiks [22:34] [snoopy369] no idea why they think they can do that ... [22:34] [snoopy369] IIRC it's 150gp or something to upgrade a single horse to a keshki [22:34] [snoopy369] keshik* [22:34] [Kloreep] Something insane [22:34] [Kloreep] Knight upgrades were expensive enough in PTW [22:34] [snoopy369] yeh [22:34] [Kloreep] And we need gold to get to Chiv in the first place [22:34] [snoopy369] yep [22:35] [snoopy369] i believe they're paying us to do monotheism [22:35] [snoopy369] if we can do it faster than you anyways - 20 turns i think is our best number, or something close to that [22:35] [Kloreep] So you're thinking of going with this? [22:36] [Kloreep] Not that there may be much other choice... [22:36] [snoopy369] Oh, i've always intended to rush to chivalry [22:36] [snoopy369] It was always my plan, from the beginning of this game [22:36] [snoopy369] turn 1. [22:36] [Kloreep] Yes [22:36] [Kloreep] But you still trust BOH as an ally in a Chivalry endeavor? [22:37] [snoopy369] and as a team, we pretty much intended to stop attacknig ourselves and get to chivalry first, maybe one attack in the middle at most [22:37] [snoopy369] because we have nothing ATM [22:37] [snoopy369] do i trust them as an ally? Not sure. [22:37] * Shogun_Gunner has joined #babembassy [22:37] [snoopy369] I trust that they won't attack us [22:37] * Kloreep sets mode: +o Shogun_Gunner [22:37] [snoopy369] and they probably will keep supporting us in the attempt to get chivalry [22:37] [Shogun_Gunner] sorry, don't know what i did... [22:37] [snoopy369] but i'm not sure if militarily they're trustworthy [22:37] [Kloreep] Supporting in the attempt to get Chivalry, perhaps [22:38] [Kloreep] But militarily, do you think those Keshiks would be alongside you? [22:38] [snoopy369] I think the problem is that they have too much conflict internally [22:38] [snoopy369] thus they say one thing, and then turn around and say another not much later [22:38] [snoopy369] they've slowed down by a turn or two more than once, after all [22:38] [snoopy369] and in this one, a single turn is the difference between them finding Antioch with 3 units in it - as I promised them was likely - and 9 [22:39] [snoopy369] their immortals made the city only this past turn [22:39] [snoopy369] haven't even had time to rest their HP yet [22:39] [snoopy369] and they delayed a single turn about 5-6 turns ago, moving towards us instead of towards DR for one turn after Sidon [22:39] [Kloreep] So it really is all over if they don't attack [22:39] [Kloreep] At least they haven't sent the save yet... [22:39] [snoopy369] yes, i asked them to hold off [22:39] [Kloreep] Do you think there's any chance of convincing them to attack? [22:39] [snoopy369] and i'm not sure Paddy supports this decision [22:39] * Beta has joined #babembassy [22:39] [snoopy369] i haven't seen him on yet [22:39] [snoopy369] Hello! [22:39] [Beta] Greetings. [22:40] * snoopy369 sets mode: +o Beta [22:40] [Beta] Thank you. [22:40] [snoopy369] haha mIRC makes me lazy [22:40] [Kloreep] It seems Euphorica has been in contact with BOH [22:40] [snoopy369] yessir [22:40] [Beta] Sorry for the delay gents. [22:40] [snoopy369] no prob [22:40] [snoopy369] is the cat okay? [22:40] [Beta] Still waiting. They can't get a urine sample. [22:40] [snoopy369] ahh [22:40] [snoopy369] what is the issue? [22:41] [Beta] And he is the one who slleps beside the computer so I am lonely. [22:41] [snoopy369] awww [22:41] * snoopy369 wonders if Rhoth is still up with his little one as well [22:41] [Beta] Pee-ing where he shouldn't. Not sure if its physical or bevaioural. [22:41] [snoopy369] ohh [22:41] [snoopy369] true [22:42] [snoopy369] anywho [22:42] [snoopy369] I spoke for a frustrating hour and something with Ljube [22:42] [snoopy369] his point of view, ultimately, and i'm guessing at least some of BoH's, is that attacking Antioch would be a mistake, so they are pulling back from it [22:43] [snoopy369] and indeed are pulling back entirely until Chivalry is completed (30+ turns from now). [22:43] [snoopy369] Ljube personally didn't understand our frustration with Chrisius' post, of course, although that doesn't shock me [22:44] [snoopy369] We have intelligence as to the precise nature of troops inside Antioch, and are of the opinion, based on odds and HPs, that they'd have around a 50-60% chance of success at antioch [22:44] [snoopy369] as such, we believe they need to do it - the damage it would do, and the troops that would be lost, justify it [22:45] [Beta] Agreed. [22:45] [snoopy369] and furthermore, they committed to doing so in the past, and that is why we moved as we did - losing the bulk of our forces in the process. [22:45] [Beta] You have every right to be upset. It only cost us 4 horsemen. [22:45] [snoopy369] hehe [22:46] [snoopy369] I'm not sure if they're going to back down or not [22:46] [snoopy369] it probably comes down to Paddy [22:46] [Shogun_Gunner] Did Ljube understand the points you were trying to make Snoopy? [22:46] [Kloreep] So, you tried explaining the whole sacrifice part? [22:46] [snoopy369] hehe [22:46] [Kloreep] Yes, what was his response? [22:46] [snoopy369] Ljube is ... ljube. [22:46] [Beta] The entire team is a bit obtuse. [22:46] [snoopy369] He does have a point, in that simply saying 'we lost units, so you should too' is stupid. And not what i'm saying, of course. [22:47] [Kloreep] Of course. [22:47] [snoopy369] We're saying that we sacrificed the units to get them the best chance to destroy antioch, and they should take it. [22:47] [Kloreep] If it truly is across the 50% line... [22:47] [Kloreep] It's not simply losing units too. [22:47] [snoopy369] It's around there [22:47] [snoopy369] i haven't calculated the numbers precisely

	14-07-2005 00:05									#70
	Tired of ads?

Part 2

quote: [22:47] [E_T] maybe they wanted you to be weakened, just throwing that out, being Devils advocate.... [22:47] [snoopy369] there are as we said 2 catapults, 7 units with def 2 and 2 units with def 1 [22:47] [snoopy369] ljube claims 21 units, i do not know the precise makeup [22:48] [E_T] and not all full streinth, either [22:48] [snoopy369] yes [22:48] [snoopy369] the immortals average 3hp [22:48] [snoopy369] some have 2, some 4 [22:48] [snoopy369] nay, all have 3 or 4 but more have 3 [22:48] [E_T] and likely, sone not even forted, as they must have just gotten there [22:49] [snoopy369] well, do they fort the turn they hit F? [22:49] [Shogun_Gunner] A "Fortify All" doesn't do it? [22:49] [snoopy369] i forget if they have to wait a turn to count or not [22:49] [snoopy369] not if they have 0 MP left, i know thta [22:49] [snoopy369] but i forget if it actually counts or not if there's 1 MP left [22:49] [snoopy369] i think it does, in which case they could be all forted [22:49] [snoopy369] but regardless, from my recollection the total def they could have is 6, yes? [22:50] [snoopy369] +50% +50% +100% from 2, or 6 [22:50] [Kloreep] What's the city size again? [22:50] [snoopy369] it hass walls [22:50] [Kloreep] If it's walled on a hill that's +100% [22:50] [Kloreep] Otherwise just +50% for the wall [22:50] [snoopy369] plus for [22:50] [snoopy369] fort [22:50] [snoopy369] oh, wall is only 50 you're right [22:50] [snoopy369] so +150%, or 5 defense for the units [22:50] [Kloreep] +175% if they're forted [22:50] [snoopy369] for 25 or so [22:51] [Kloreep] But no more than that [22:51] [snoopy369] huh? [22:51] [Kloreep] Wait... [22:51] [snoopy369] where's the 25%? [22:51] [Kloreep] Even open land has a defensive bonus [22:51] [E_T] Isn't the Fort all an exploit, when used in certain cases and aren't we supposed to not be using exploits? [22:51] [Kloreep] +25% if the units are fortified [22:51] [Kloreep] E_T: it can be exploited [22:51] [Kloreep] Or could [22:51] [Kloreep] It might have been fixed [22:51] [Kloreep] But I can't remember [22:51] [snoopy369] i think it was fixed in the recent one [22:51] [snoopy369] fort all doesn't fort stuff with 0 MP [22:51] [Kloreep] At any rate, I think we can trust DR not to exploit it [22:51] [snoopy369] but anywho [22:51] [snoopy369] +50% for hill +50% for wall +25% for fort [22:51] [snoopy369] what's the other bonus? [22:52] [snoopy369] (i was counting 50% for fort, my memory for these details is horrid) [22:52] [Kloreep] +10% bonus [22:52] [Beta] Vet just called. Going to pick up Simon the civ-playing cat. [22:52] [Kloreep] For all land terrain [22:52] [snoopy369] kk [22:52] [Beta] cya folks. [22:52] [snoopy369] good luck [22:52] [Kloreep] That isn't higher [22:52] [Kloreep] cya Beta [22:52] [Shogun_Gunner] bye Beta [22:52] [Kloreep] Hope Simon recovers [22:52] [snoopy369] anyways 125% bonus [22:52] [Beta] snoopy - hang tight. [22:52] [snoopy369] yessir you too [22:52] * Beta has quit IRC (Quit: CivChat - http://www.civchat.com/) [22:52] [snoopy369] may be still on when you return, who knwos [22:52] [snoopy369] lol [22:52] [snoopy369] anyway, give them 5 defense, let's say [22:53] [snoopy369] 25hp of 5 defense units, and 9 hp of 2.5 defense units [22:53] [snoopy369] 125+22.5 = 147.5 total defense [22:53] [snoopy369] say 150 [22:53] [Kloreep] Give them 4 defense [22:53] [Kloreep] Unless they're on a hill, 5 is too generous [22:53] [snoopy369] i'm saying worst case [22:53] [snoopy369] they're on a hill [22:53] [Kloreep] Ah, okay [22:53] [Kloreep] Nevermind then [22:53] [snoopy369] anyways, 150 total defense, in a sense [22:53] [Kloreep] So yeah, 150 [22:54] [snoopy369] if paddy's force is entirely horsemen, he has 120 total offense [22:54] [snoopy369] but it's not ... i just don't know how many swords he has [22:54] [snoopy369] wait [22:54] [snoopy369] 4*2*20 .. 160 total offense [22:54] [Kloreep] Of course, some are spears [22:54] [snoopy369] i'm a moron they're almost entirely vets [22:54] [Kloreep] So the spears and swords may balance out [22:54] [snoopy369] yes, but he has more swords than spears [22:54] [Kloreep] Ah [22:54] [snoopy369] i'm fairly sure [22:54] [snoopy369] a few are archers, and at least one is a 3/2/2 [22:54] [snoopy369] with 5 hp ... [22:55] [snoopy369] point being, with swords=spears, BoH has more total offense [22:55] [E_T] that's a srong enough of a force to attack now and win [22:55] [snoopy369] yes ... my argument [22:55] [snoopy369] i may try to argue this again with them later [22:55] [snoopy369] i didn't have good enough numbers at the time [22:55] [snoopy369] certainly they could lose [22:55] [snoopy369] or they could win [22:55] [snoopy369] but i think they just don't want to take the chance [22:55] [Shogun_Gunner] still, they wish a fight with others now and perhaps don't want to exhaust their offensive force [22:56] [E_T] so, what is our options, alliance wise, if they don't [22:56] [Kloreep] You can always lose even when it's tank vs. warrior [22:56] [Kloreep] Just a matter of the odds [22:56] [Kloreep] If they're scared when they have the better odds... [22:57] [snoopy369] well, their number crunchers disagre [22:57] [snoopy369] disagree [22:57] [Kloreep] So, let's say they don't listen and pull back. [22:57] [snoopy369] but i'm not sure what their precise disagreement is [22:57] [Kloreep] What is Euphorica thinking of doing in that case? [22:57] [snoopy369] Our team has no real choice if they do that ... [22:57] [snoopy369] at least in the short term, we are forced to defend ourselves against a probable DR counterattack [22:57] [snoopy369] which is part of what Ljube is hoping for [22:57] [snoopy369] he thinks they'll be forced to counterattack, and we'll beat them [22:57] [snoopy369] of course it's us they'd attack, and not BoH [22:58] [Kloreep] They've already counterattacked an attack [22:58] [Kloreep] And BOH still seems reluctant [22:58] [snoopy369] i mean attack us directly [22:58] [Kloreep] Yes, I know [22:59] [snoopy369] btw [22:59] [snoopy369] is there a chanserv for civirc? [22:59] [snoopy369] might as well reg a few channels [22:59] [Kloreep] Yes [22:59] [Kloreep] I've already registered #babylon myself [22:59] -] *ChanServ* HELP should get you started [22:59] -] *ChanServ* HELP [23:00] [Kloreep] The command /msg ChanServ HELP [23:00] [Kloreep] Should get you started [23:00] [snoopy369] yessir already done [23:00] [snoopy369] it's standard stuff, same as in planetarion days [23:00] [Kloreep] So, you want Feudalism sent? [23:00] [Kloreep] I believe you still needed a tech to get in to the MA [23:00] [snoopy369] We would appreciate it [23:00] [Kloreep] Did BOH send it? I don't think we did... [23:01] [snoopy369] i think we are all full [23:01] [snoopy369] not sure [23:01] [snoopy369] they should have sent it [23:01] [snoopy369] yes they did [23:01] [Kloreep] At any rate... Babylon is not so trusting of BOH at the moment [23:01] [snoopy369] otw we couldn't research monotheism [23:01] [snoopy369] I don't think they'll betray us entirely [23:01] [snoopy369] i'm not sure i'll count on them in the future for military help ... [23:01] [Kloreep] So I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't pass it on yourselves [23:02] [Kloreep] Feud, that is [23:02] [snoopy369] hmm [23:02] [snoopy369] will have to think about that [23:02] [Kloreep] We had agreed to send it to BOH accepted, but we feel quite betrayed right now [23:02] [snoopy369] that would probably be a more serious breach, honestly [23:02] [snoopy369] we'd have to think about that [23:02] [Kloreep] And I'm certainly not so optimistic about their motives as you are [23:03] [Kloreep] If they'll pull out here, they'll pull out of TNA as well if they want to, I think. [23:03] [Kloreep] Though that's just my personal opinion. [23:03] [snoopy369] I'm not sure [23:03] [Shogun_Gunner] many Babylonians feel the way Kloreep does [23:03] [snoopy369] but i don't think they'll betray us directly [23:03] [Kloreep] I don't know [23:03] [snoopy369] although i'm pissed off as you are about this act [23:03] [snoopy369] they are doing it for what they see as good reasons [23:03] [Kloreep] Yes, I know [23:03] [snoopy369] they don't see this as betrayal, just as ... consolidating [23:03] [snoopy369] that's why i'm not thinking they're going to attack us [23:03] [Kloreep] Many things fall under good reasons for BOH [23:03] [Kloreep] Possibly including an alliance with DR [23:04] [Kloreep] I think a worst case where they're lying through their teeth and cooperating with DR is entirely possible, although certainly not the only possibility [23:04] [snoopy369] I don't think that's the case [23:04] [snoopy369] I really don't think Paddy could, or would, do that [23:04] [Shogun_Gunner] seems like they have it out for us...diming us out in the Blood Cell announcement [23:04] [snoopy369] you don't understand Paddy's depth of hatred for DR [23:05] [Kloreep] No, I guess I don't [23:05] [Shogun_Gunner] i had no idea [23:05] [snoopy369] as i said before you got here - they have been of the opinion that you aren't contributing enough [23:05] [E_T] or not to attack you directly, but to not attack DR and make pease with them and let DR attack you [23:05] [snoopy369] they hate DR, and we have geopolitical reasons for this [23:05] [snoopy369] but you ... don't, and they don't understand that you're not as willing to go all out [23:05] [Kloreep] I'd have to agree with you up until now, when we are about to send Feud around cheap. Shields, gold... we're all sacrificing resources here. [23:06] [snoopy369] We simply don't expect you to contribute as much as us or BoH [23:06] [snoopy369] if you do then we'll be glad but both of our teams are ... hellbent, i'd say, to eliminate DR [23:06] [snoopy369] i don't expect you to be hellbent [23:06] [snoopy369] [23:06] [Shogun_Gunner] assuming the attack on Antioch continues, right? [23:06] [E_T] Well, as for contributing, with their Capitol capable of building 2 turn Horses and 5 turn Ancient cav, it's hard to even keep up with that kind of output [23:06] [Kloreep] Indeed [23:07] [snoopy369] Oh, of course [23:07] [snoopy369] neither can we [23:07] [snoopy369] altho i think we have used a higher proportion of our resources than they have, honestly [23:08] [snoopy369] they've certainly expanded faster than we have (expansionists, of course ) [23:13] * Shogun_Gunner has quit IRC (Quit: CivChat - http://www.civchat.com/) [23:13] [Kloreep] It's somewhat ironic, really... [23:13] [snoopy369] yessir [23:14] [Kloreep] We finally find out BOH has stated they don't trust us due to our low level of unit commitment/sacrifice [23:14] [Kloreep] Yet the reason our forum is up in arms about them is their clear reluctance on that same issue [23:14] [Kloreep] Not much trust to go around when neither side will start, I will admit [23:15] [Kloreep] But I'm still wary. This _is_ the perfect time for a betrayal, after our units have been destroyed. [23:16] [Kloreep] Anyway... [23:16] [Kloreep] I hope they can be convinced to take this opportunity before it disappears. [23:17] [snoopy369] brb 1 sec [23:18] [Kloreep] Damn [23:18] [Kloreep] Am I still on? [23:19] [Kloreep] Seems like it [23:19] [Kloreep] But I think my connection is going [23:19] [Kloreep] Anything else you want to discuss? [23:25] [snoopy369] back [23:26] [snoopy369] i hope so too [23:26] [snoopy369] Nothing else as of yet ... we'll talk amongst ourselves about feudalism passing to BoH [23:26] [Kloreep] k [23:26] [snoopy369] i can't say for sure we won't pass it on - it's theirs by rights [23:26] [snoopy369] but we'll discuss it [23:26] [snoopy369] and we'll see what BoH does [23:26] [snoopy369] we're going to try and convince them [23:26] [Kloreep] Yes, I hope they can be [23:27] [snoopy369] but ... they are an enigma not easily cracked [23:27] [snoopy369] and LJube and some others have very very strong personalities [23:27] [snoopy369] the sort to never admit wrong even when they are ... [23:27] [Kloreep] Poly seems to be down... [23:27] [Kloreep] Or at least very slow. [23:27] [Kloreep] Ah, back now. [23:28] [snoopy369] hmm [23:28] [snoopy369] fine for me [23:28] [snoopy369] but [23:28] [Kloreep] So, I guess that's it for now. [23:28] [Kloreep] E-mailing won't be possible, so I'll upload it and give you the link [23:28] [Kloreep] Thanks for staying up to chat. [23:28] [snoopy369] k [23:29] [snoopy369] i can probably just save it myself [23:29] [Kloreep] Okay [23:29] [snoopy369] actually i'll post it in our forum [23:29] [snoopy369] but thanks [23:29] [Kloreep] Well, yeah [23:29] [Kloreep] I just didn't know what you were logging on from [23:29] [Kloreep] Some clients are better than others on logging [23:29] [snoopy369] mIRC [23:29] [Kloreep] Ah, yeah [23:29] [Kloreep] That'll be fine [23:30] [Kloreep] Right click on the channel tab, it's under Buffer [23:31] [snoopy369] yessir [23:31] [snoopy369] thanks [23:42] [snoopy369] ok i'm going to log off mirc for now ... i'll try to check in from time to time [23:42] [Kloreep] k [23:42] [Kloreep] Night [23:42] [Kloreep] Make sure to set the password if you're the first in [23:42] [snoopy369] hehe [23:42] [snoopy369] just chanserv set it? [23:42] [Kloreep] Yeah [23:42] [snoopy369] i mean you should [23:42] [Kloreep] You can also double click in mIRC [23:43] [snoopy369] so it is auto-set [23:43] [Kloreep] Ah [23:43] [snoopy369] [23:43] [Kloreep] That's not secure [23:43] [Kloreep] Anyone can enter an empty channel [23:43] [Kloreep] And then if a password is set, they'll see it being set [23:43] [snoopy369] really? [23:43] [Kloreep] Yep [23:43] [snoopy369] not as good of a chanserv as planetarion then [23:44] [Kloreep] I'm not sure if it'I don't have MSN, but we could chat via IRC if you want. irc.civirc.com if you have an IRC client, or go to http://www.civchat.com/ if you don't. Room is #babembassy, password feudfeud, so type: [23:44] [Kloreep] -Kloreep [23:44] [Kloreep] Whoops [23:44] [Kloreep] Paste happens [23:44] [snoopy369] hehe [23:44] [Kloreep] Yeah, not as good a chanserv [23:44] [Kloreep] Poly IRC has the bug too [23:44] [snoopy369] hm [23:45] [snoopy369] in PA chanserv had presence in all registered channels [23:45] [snoopy369] an actual bot in each channel (same one - "P" ) [23:45] [snoopy369] kept channels as resident [23:45] [snoopy369] extant* [23:46] [Kloreep] Ah [23:46] [snoopy369] hm i think you are correct [23:47] [snoopy369] tried it with #euphorica - didn't work passwordwise [23:47] [snoopy369] i guess i can set it through my nick [23:47] [snoopy369] my auto-run commands in mIRC [23:48] [Kloreep] Yeah [23:49] [Kloreep] You can secure a channel by restricting access to people on access lists [23:49] [Kloreep] But then all your members have to register [23:49] [snoopy369] yeh [23:49] [snoopy369] i may do that also [23:49] [snoopy369] not that this is popular enough really to matter i guess [23:49] [snoopy369] but we'll see [23:49] [snoopy369] anywho, heading out ... have fun [23:49] [snoopy369] hopefully this blows over [23:49] [snoopy369] *crosses fingers* [23:50] [Kloreep] k, night [23:52] [E_T] later [23:52] [E_T] Oh, if you want join the Apolyton C3CISDG team [23:52] * E_T is making a shameless plug [23:53] [snoopy369] hehe [23:53] [snoopy369] bah i'll join the frickin civgroup [23:53] [snoopy369] where's the link? [23:53] [E_T] well, most of the C3cDG people are in it [23:54] [E_T] http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=102143 [23:54] [E_T] and join the civgroup [23:54] [snoopy369] okay linked [23:54] [snoopy369] admin has to approve etc. but done [23:54] [E_T] kewl [23:55] [E_T] and plug us to your team mates [23:55] [E_T] I know Roth is one [23:57] [snoopy369] rhoth is probably too busy [23:57] [snoopy369] anyway night [23:57] * snoopy369 has quit IRC (Quit: ) End of #babembassy buffer Tue Jul 12 23:57:47 2005

	14-07-2005 00:36									#71
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I have read part 1...

	14-07-2005 01:05									#72
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I have read part 2.

So. Do we have anything set in stone? Is TNA dead?

I do suspect that there might have been a coup at BOH. Anyone notice it was Paddy birthday? He left to go to the casinos. That would explain his lack of availability. Would not explain his schizoid emails.

	14-07-2005 01:45									#73
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hm, that sounds promising. Paddy seems to be back to normal again, Euphorica is friendly to us and BOH might have very simple reasons for calling the cease fire. My paranoia is shrinking, though still present. Thank you for logging it (Though you sure could have carved out the technical parts )

* Micha is relieved for now.

Maybe this will all lead to a happy end.

	14-07-2005 07:58									#74
	Remove this text

quick chat with snoopy369:

quote: Skrobism says: hello. sorry that I don't have time to chat much now but I wanted to get you my msn id snoopy369 says: k cool Skrobism says: have about 5 minutes - do you have any updates on TNA/DR cease fire? snoopy369 says: not yet snoopy369 says: just got home 2 mins ago Skrobism says: Skrobism says: I saw that you chatted last night - good talk - good to have an ally snoopy369 says: yeh we are allies regardless of others Skrobism says: very good. Euphorica seems to understand our our level of input to the war. Did BOH play yet? snoopy369 says: nope snoopy369 says: they have yet to talk with us after last night snoopy369 says: i hope they will talk again before playing Skrobism says: harsh words have been said by all sides in public. If TNA can pull thru maybe we can use this public bickering to our advantage. snoopy369 says: yessir Skrobism says: must go. thanks for your time & the update snoopy369 says: yessir snoopy369 says: will try to update later snoopy369 says: have a good night Skrobism says: -skrobism vox inannum Skrobism says: u2

	15-07-2005 04:58									#75
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Here is the announcement from McM to his team. he copied me on it.

quote: Fellow Euphoriscians (ally and foe), I just came home from a pleasant day at the beach to find out we have been invaded by BOH. It might be that the outisiders here were already aware of such plans. If so I congratulate you with such diplomacy. Yesterday I was worried that Paddy would take all the mess that was going on too personally and feared he would resign from the game or have a spoiled birthday. Today I'm/ we're faced with a stab in the back way beyond anything I had expected. It could be regarded as excellent strategy and game play, however I must admit I'm grieved. I know it's just a game. I would like to ask my team members not to react to all the provocations on the boards. I hope we can first discuss and finaly come with a statement from the whole team. I know it's hard to resist, because I feel the urge myself as well to scream out what kind of backstabbing has occored. To the foreign natiuons, it seems we're open to any good offer of assistence, which doesn't even need to be proclaimed in the open. and the music fades away....

	15-07-2005 07:49									#76
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Snoopy369 is in chat, room #Babemb, Password is 'bloodyhell'

E_T

	15-07-2005 07:52									#77
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

My reply to their team...

quote: Greetings friends and allies. This is a dark dark day. It would appear you might be facing your Waterloo. BOH's move has caught everyone by surprise - except for maybe DR. Do you have any insights as to that connection? We have one seriously wounded horsemen remaining in the area - and he is now running from both barbs and Dr. However - we have feudalism - and we have not yet sent it accepted to BOH, despite Paddy's posturing. We will send it to you. We ask that you not trade it on of course - as we want to make it harder for the others to research - and it will help you militarily. We have contacted Anhk Morpork to see where they stand. We have been in touch with the Lost Boys, but 1889 is playing it very neutral, and very close to the chest. I am about to write to Aqualung and see what is up. His reply may be interesting or nasty. We will see. Goddess Inanna's thoughts are with you during these troubled times, as are the thought's of all Babylonian's. Hindsight is 20/20, and maybe we should have seen this coming. Such is life. We are talking to our neighbours, and if sufficent will exists, we may mount a crusade. Hopefully BOH's actions have convinced others of the need for swift action before Keshiks arrive. Hang tough and stay in touch. Beta of Babylon

	15-07-2005 08:23									#78
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

E_T and I had a short chat with snoopy369. Not much to add. They do not have iron - so in some respects - sending feudlaism to them won't help much. Their only hope now is that either;

1. this is strictly a BOH affair (and Dr will sit back and watch)

or

2. The world mounts a crusade against BOH.

	15-07-2005 09:05									#79
	Chatlog with Snoopy369 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: * snoopy369 has joined #Babemb * E_T sets mode: +o snoopy369 [E_T> let me make that post, BRB [snoopy369> yessir [E_T> Well, just to let you know, that we WILL be sending you Feudalism [E_T> the Fools that BoH has been, should have atleast waited one more turn, because we WERE going to be sending Feud to them, too [E_T> and we now suspect that they have been in cahoots with DR for some time [snoopy369> yes [snoopy369> i never did understand that [snoopy369> cahoots with DR? [snoopy369> hm [snoopy369> I'm not sure on that angle [E_T> It would be reasonable, in light of recent events, looking back [E_T> DR gets to MA, free tech [E_T> BoH is pressing for our Free tech [snoopy369> hehe [E_T> what if they were planning all along with getting both, by trading them [snoopy369> Possible, but I dunno [snoopy369> it doesn't fit, to me [snoopy369> I think they just decided to take advantage of our weakness ... [snoopy369> but then again [E_T> if they were both Mono & Feud, it would be only a short run to Chiv and their UU [snoopy369> I didn't think this was possible, either [snoopy369> yeh [snoopy369> that was our idea [snoopy369> mono and feud and run with it [E_T> Well, that's what I get 'payed' to do, think about all of possible Intel analysis [snoopy369> hehe * Beta has joined #Babemb [Beta> yo [E_T> Ah, our leader [Beta> Hi E_T! [E_T> let me catch him up first [Beta> k [SNIP repeat of above] [E_T> tere * snoopy369 sets mode: +o Beta [Beta> thx! [Beta> dark dark day [snoopy369> yessir [snoopy369> i really want to figure out if ET is right or not [Beta> just sent you guys an e-mail [Beta> confirming that we wil send feud [Beta> as E_T has pointed out [Beta> regarding? [snoopy369> whether DR is in on this, or not [snoopy369> if they're not, they're a sudden ally [snoopy369> if they are ... [Beta> My gut tells me they have to be. [E_T> I was posting something about that, want a preview? [Beta> If they are - you're toast, I'm afraid. [snoopy369> yes ... [snoopy369> i'm afraid so [Beta> [Beta> Man, that sucks! [snoopy369> It's honestly pretty shocking to me ... it's not Paddy's way [snoopy369> 4 on 2 is the situation in that case, of course [Beta> I don't know what is going on. [snoopy369> but ... [snoopy369> the weaker 4 vs the stronger 2 [snoopy369> at least militarily [Beta> I had a long chat with Paddy last night. He had been drinking - or so he says. [Beta> He did not mention tis at all. [E_T> Pay no attention to the smiling man in the front, because he;s distracting you from the really bad men that are standing behind him [Beta> He mentioned the rifts in the team. [snoopy369> hehe [Beta> But then he told Shogun that was all roleplay. [snoopy369> yes, he mentioned the same [Beta> E_T - you are right. [E_T> {quote} [E_T> The Phoney War [Beta> Pady may be Khan - but I think it is a bit like the Queen of england's job. [E_T> BoH has been planning this Phoney War for a while, I would guess. [E_T> Reasons: [E_T> Euph is their only real competition, with both having Fast Mover UU's at Chivalry. Take them out and they are fairly sure of winning, if they can keep everyone else at each other's throats. [E_T> DR was an excuse, to lure Euph main army out for destruction. I wouldn't be surprised if they have been planning this with DR for a while. BoH suckered Euph with talk of Honor and such. Because of Paddy's PBEM reputation, they trusted him, even though he wasn't BoH, just their leader. [E_T> And remember, they are playing this up, and they are a concuring Civ, no doubt. If it requires them to Backstab their allies, then that is what they will do, to get to the position that they are close to right now. [E_T> But they made a fatal Mistake. They should have waited 1 more turn. It's likely, that they were working with DR and wanting our Free Tech to trade with DR for their own (if different) [E_T> {/quote} [snoopy369> yeh [snoopy369> i'd imagine that is true ... [E_T> that's some of the things that I do for Team Babylon [Beta> yep! [Beta> so - where do we go from here. [Beta> I have contacted AM [Beta> We are trying to get 1889 to come out of his shell. [Beta> And we do need to contact DR. [E_T> What would it be worth,in good will and future cooperation (and maybe later gold of techs), if Babylon was to do some Intel of Bo for you [snoopy369> 1889 would be nice ... [snoopy369> they must have something [Beta> A crusade against BOH would be great if it could be orchestrated. [E_T> I think that AM is a vassel of BoH, but their RoP expired, so I'm not quite certain [snoopy369> well ET i can't promise anything [snoopy369> as i said in the e-mail, we're not yet prepared as a team to make any plans or promises [Beta> regarding what? [snoopy369> and ... honestly i can't promise that we'll have anything to give [snoopy369> we haven't had time to talk [E_T> because, we will likely be at war with BoH next turn, but this turn, we could build an embassy a cost that isn't cheep) [Beta> ah - understood. [Beta> yes - the embassy. [snoopy369> i got home at 4am McM's time [snoopy369> please feel free to hold off on playing until McM and I can talk tomorrow [Beta> Mcm sounded both pissed and sad about this. [Beta> We do not plan on playing for awhile. [snoopy369> yeh [snoopy369> I have a question about PTWDG1 [snoopy369> I don't know much of the history of it [snoopy369> but from what i recall, early game had something not this big, but similar? [E_T> ASre you in a position to Upgrade Units, when you get Feud? [E_T> are you possibly in need of funds to help? [snoopy369> hmmm [snoopy369> Well [snoopy369> we have no iron [snoopy369> so we're not in position to do anything ... [snoopy369> that was Metallica [Beta> **** [snoopy369> BoH aren't entirely dumb [Beta> e-mail message from Plato... [snoopy369> they picked the best place to attack ... [Beta> Greetings great Lords, [Beta> The Khan of the Blood Oath Horde and his loyal Ambassador await your [E_T> and no horses, either [snoopy369> yeh [Beta> pleasure on the #Apolyton mIRC channel. [Beta> We would be honoured by your presence and happy to [E_T> sorry to say it, but your screwed (as are we all, if we can't all gang up on them) [Beta> answer questions on the days events. [Beta> me again - yes E_T - I agree. [Beta> And I am not sure we can muster that kind of reaction from AM and LB. [snoopy369> yeh [snoopy369> AM maybe [snoopy369> LB, depends on 1889 [snoopy369> obviously [E_T> and no telling what DR will do [snoopy369> but AM i think is dependable [snoopy369> yes ... best case scenario they help us attack [E_T> esp if they are in leage with BoH [snoopy369> well ... yes [E_T> and you still haven't joined the C3CISDG [snoopy369> i joined the civgroup [snoopy369> you do know where i work, right? [E_T> you need to post in thread for someone to set you up to get into it [E_T> Hold on, let me see if he's online, Bigfree [snoopy369> ohh [snoopy369> didna know [snoopy369> [[ wonders what thread [snoopy369> anyway i need to go make dinner [E_T> let me find it, hold on * snoopy369 works at a bookstore btw [snoopy369> and as a management team member, I have pretty long hours this weekend [E_T> http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=102143 * snoopy369 isn't a big fan of that rowling character [snoopy369> thx [SNIP] [Beta> Listen guys. Bed time here. [Beta> hehe [SNIP] [Beta> Good night - snoop - you folks hand tough my friend. [E_T> later [snoopy369> kk [Beta> cay E_T [snoopy369> i'll be back in an hour maybe [Beta> cya [snoopy369> or less perhaps if anyone's here * Beta has quit IRC (Quit: CivChat - http://www.civchat.com/) [E_T> I'll be here

He's currently still in the room, but AFK, but will be back later.

I'm working on fixing this, hold on

E_T

	15-07-2005 09:18									#80
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

it seems to be a picture coming into focus.

Make A-M their b1tch, fake war with DR, trick to sabatoge Euphoria, next stop Babylon.

Of course that last event is still conjecture at this point.

	15-07-2005 09:46									#81
	Increase Your PM Length

Now your starting to get it....

E_T

	15-07-2005 17:01									#82
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

We need a crusade.

	15-07-2005 17:20									#83
	Inflate your Upload Space

it would be great to get the four "good civs" against the Horde (and DR if they are really allies)

A little early for that world war...

	15-07-2005 20:06									#84
	Last part of chat with Snoopy, before signing off Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I chatted with Snoopy369, after Beta's Chat with BoH

-Asked of possible to delay Feud and game reason why (wanting to cut road to Metalica, only chance.
- they don't mind, but still want it, if they somehow recapture Metalica, so they would appreciate us sending accepted and they would accept if recaptured.
- they lost a lux deal with BoH, too, dyes for furs
- they will send us the full treaty that they had with BoH.
- they had planned to take DR then LB, they were going to leave us alone

quote: [E_T> Snoopy, you still here? [snoopy369> yes [snoopy369> but i'm going to bed pretty soon ... i realized how tired i am [snoopy369> what's up [E_T> Would there be a problem, with Euph not getting Feud, this turn? [snoopy369> Please send it [snoopy369> we'll decide whether to accept it or not [snoopy369> but I think that should be our choice [E_T> stuff going on with BoH, says that they will be posting 'evidence'of Euph treatcury [snoopy369> there's no evidence [E_T> we know that [snoopy369> are they posting this on the forums?? [snoopy369> or just in the chats [E_T> but we have 1 warrior that could possibly cut the road, between BoH & Matalica, nect turn, if they don't attack it [E_T> Beta & SG was talking to them [snoopy369> well, that would be grand [snoopy369> hmmm, now i wonder if i should reconsider my acquiescence to McM [snoopy369> he asked me not to post anything tonight, but to wait [E_T> but with us not sending tech, they will attack him [snoopy369> i think i should post now ... but i got tired so i gave in [snoopy369> well ... what's the difference? [snoopy369> you're not going to send it to them, either way, so ?? [E_T> but if they haven't posted their 'evidence', then we can safely state that we didn't send it to you, either, as we were awaiting that 'evidence' [snoopy369> welll [snoopy369> hm [snoopy369> hmmmmm [snoopy369> okay [snoopy369> it won't benefit us a lick this turn [E_T> but that way, we could get into position to raze that road, denigning them temporarily, the furs [snoopy369> we'll be okay with that for a turn [snoopy369> oh, thanks btw [snoopy369> my pre-post in my private forum ignored that deal they broke as well [snoopy369> sighhh [E_T> which was what? [snoopy369> furs for dyes [snoopy369> nothing major, but another broken deal nonetheless [snoopy369> oh, and we gave them a free settler for making the road, early on [E_T> hehe, betrayal is not pretty [snoopy369> nope ;( [E_T> can't say that I didn't see it comeing [snoopy369> yeh ;( [snoopy369> i didn't [snoopy369> i can say that [E_T> and I've only been on this team from 1450BC save play [E_T> I looked arond, smeeled something very ripe and started posting about it [snoopy369> hehe [E_T> most everyone said that I was wrong, but the evidence kept piling up [E_T> that Paddywas trustworthy, honors his deal in PBEM [E_T> my responce was that Paddy WASN'T BoH, just 1 member of it [E_T> although, the leader, still just 1 voice in a corous [snoopy369> yeh [snoopy369> he had us tricked there i guses [snoopy369> guess [snoopy369> Ljube is the ultimate fiend, i think * E_T sometimes can't spell for $hit [E_T> theyall are, it would seem [E_T> it's very likely, a well thought out plan, to get to their UU and Dominate, right from the very start [snoopy369> I dunno [E_T> and if they are hevily roleplaying that kind of civilization, then betrayal is something that they don't blink an eye at [snoopy369> i know that Ljube was kicked out for a while, essentially [snoopy369> and then came back suddenly about 3 turns ago [snoopy369> and LJube is ... well known ... in a certain other forum for his backstabbery [E_T> you know, Paddy's diplomatic style had very much reminded me of Ribbentop [snoopy369> hmm dunno who that is [E_T> and micha, who is German, was also thinking the very same thing [E_T> German Forgein Minister under Hitler [snoopy369> ohhh lol [snoopy369> interesting [E_T> would browbeat the other diplomats [snoopy369> Paddy never did that to me [snoopy369> to you guys yes, but never to me ... [E_T> rant and bully & scream [snoopy369> and to McM same as me [snoopy369> he was always, up to the end (i mean up to yesterday, in fact) very nice [E_T> before WW2 started, it was unwise to go to Germany for diplomatic talks [E_T> he(paddy) would say some things and then apoligyze profucely the next day (or even hours later) [E_T> all part of the act [snoopy369> well paddy does have alcohol issues as well ... [E_T> yep, and I think that he takes plesure in roleplaying this character, esp while drinking [E_T> another guess confirmed [snoopy369> probably [snoopy369> the roleplaying i guess i buy [snoopy369> tho I consider this sort of roleplaying ... wrong [E_T> Inelligence is like a jigsaw puzzle [snoopy369> broken treaties are one thing, but ... [snoopy369> bah, whatever, it's only a game [E_T> well, atleast it wasn't as bad as Togas' RoP Rape [snoopy369> I think the thing to figure about them and DR being together [snoopy369> [[ wonders how it was different ... i mean i guess they left our territory first, but still [snoopy369> was that in PTWDG1? [snoopy369> anyway [E_T> one of the FAM PBEM games [snoopy369> the way to figure them and DR ... is simply to figure out what DR got for free, and then figure if they got it or not also (as they'll be slow to rsch on their own) [snoopy369> ahh ok [E_T> I'll see if Ican find the thread over at MZO, it was horrible what he had done, but it was all part of the game [snoopy369> I dunno [snoopy369> I just don't consider betrayal to be part of Civ [snoopy369> not that sort, anyway [snoopy369> i understand that other people might ... but to me, it's not the right way to play [E_T> that's becuase the AI doesn't really do it [snoopy369> and not a good way to play either - might benefit you in the short run, but in the long run it hurts you [snoopy369> no, I play far more PBEM games than AI games [E_T> but ten, 'there can only be one' [snoopy369> Oh, for sure [snoopy369> All of the treaties I sign have escape clauses [snoopy369> either triggered by # of opponents left, or by "X-turn notice" [snoopy369> or both [snoopy369> but in PBEM, your reputation precedes you, both in the game with other players, and in future games [snoopy369> Attacking someone is one thing, and betraying an alliance is a totally different [E_T> if that's the way that that team had decided to play, from the start, then that's who it sometimes goes [snoopy369> Oh, sure [snoopy369> but they'll not get allies again in this game, probably [snoopy369> and as a group I probably won't ally with them in ANY game for a good long time [E_T> and a lot of them, they likely don't care very much about that rep or figure a small stain won't hurt them [snoopy369> I guess ... [snoopy369> to me it would be a pretty frickin' huge stain, especially in a game of this magnitude [snoopy369> a small regular PBEM might be one thing ... [snoopy369> i dunno [E_T> well, they might want to try to end this, before Civ4 comes out [snoopy369> sure [snoopy369> as do we [E_T> as all of the DG's will suffer when it does [snoopy369> our way was for riders and keshiks to ride rampage across persia and carthage... [snoopy369> well, mostly persia [snoopy369> but still, we'd never even consider betraying BoH or you all [snoopy369> even to speed the game up ... [snoopy369> sure, we'd eventually end the alliance [E_T> yep, figured that [snoopy369> but it would be a peaceful ending, or at least a several turn notice ... [snoopy369> and the alliance with you all was never particularly set in stone, like the BoH/Euphorica one was [snoopy369> you'll see that treaty tomorrow [snoopy369> anyway speaking of tomorrow - i need sleep [E_T> use uf for as mch as yu could, then toss us aside..... hehe [snoopy369> [snoopy369> One presumes mutual benefit accrues. [snoopy369> Harry Potter tommorow ... eeeeek [snoopy369> hence much sleep needed [E_T> yep, later, Ihave to also get some sleep [E_T> yeah, I'll be getting my copy at 40% off, at Borders in Winter park [snoopy369> hehe [E_T> I've been counting the days.... hours now [snoopy369> well I'll be at Borders on Michigan Ave (Chicago) [snoopy369> selling a few copies here and there for 40% off [E_T> how maqny did you all get shipped i? [snoopy369> a lot [E_T> get some rest [snoopy369> "Scholastic Books requires that you not disclose any information about HP6:THBP including, but not limited to, ship quantities, reserve quantities, book cover, ..." [snoopy369> [snoopy369> very high security stuff [snoopy369> anyways, night * snoopy369 has quit IRC (Quit: "Snoopy is off to the doghouse ... goodnight!")

E_T

	15-07-2005 21:14									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

So, Babylon was always the extra wheel.

	15-07-2005 21:15									#86
	Increase Your PM Length

At this point I doubt BoH is going to have any "evidence" -- something that both Beta and I asked rather directly in our discussion with Paddy and PLATO last night.

	15-07-2005 21:31									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Of course not. BOH will 'claim' that Eu was hiding an army from them that could only have one purpose - to attack BOH.

BOH is looking for reasons to justify their bloodlust at any turn. They tried this with us in the tech trade emails that Paddy was ranting in.

But, since Babylon was always expendable. Let these two fight it out. We are done.

	15-07-2005 22:16									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

wait for it, it takes time to write good, beleavable fiction.....

I suggest that we play our turn tonight, so as to get our save off before they DO have a chance to post this work of fiction.

That way, we are covered with the Feudalism thing.

I'll post the orders when I get back home, have to pay bills and such....

E_T

	18-07-2005 07:13									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

To McM and snoopy, along with BOH..

quote: Greetings to the other members of the former TNA. We have heard accounts of betrayal from both sides of this new conflict. The situation is still not well defined and this was a trade that was conceived as part of an alliance that clearly no longer exists. We are uneasy on sending Feudalism to either of you for the moment. We hope you will understand Babylon is simply trying to do the right thing. We will be in touch shortly. Regards ...Beta of Babylon.

	18-07-2005 07:14									#90
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

That was followed by this - to explain the wording of the memo to Euphorica..

quote: Greetings Lords of Euphorica. As per our chat the other night, it is clear that feudalism will not help you at this juncture. BOH has threatened to declare war on us if we do not send it accepted. They also provided us with a loooong letter explaining their reasons for attacking you. It would appear to mostly a sham. If my team agrees, I can send you the important parts or a precis of what they said. But in the meantime, we needed to appear neutral in this discussion, hence our preceeding message. I expect Paddy and his team will still go ballistic and may well declare war on us. Which is not necessarily a bad thing for you. We will be approaching DR shortly with 'bridge mending' proposal, and we are continuing dialouge with AM and LB. Any insights you can provide on BOH troop dispositions, or the relationship between DR and LB would be helpful. Do you sense that BOH only wanted Metallica, or are they coming for other cities? Cheers and hang in there - and although it may be somewhat obvious , please keep this memo quiet from BOH. We are trying to walk a bit of a tight-rope with them - but I don't think it will matter in the end. Their strategy is pretty clear. Beta.

Took the opportunity to see if we can get some further info as well.