 |
|
Flubber
|
|
With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Commy
Apparently, when a needlejet looses health, its range is affected...so a badly damaged needlejet way out in the field may not be able to come home...
|
Weird I have NEVER seen this. If my needle is 95% damaged it still makes it home even if it attacked at maximum range
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Chaos Theory
|
 |
Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
I update the units   . I don't like all my production being tied up in military units. But I know I need a large number of military units or the ai will beat me up. |
The thing is, when you upgrade a unit (presumably to another clean unit), you pay for the clean reactor again. If it cost you 2 mineral rows to put it on a chaos needlejet, and it costs you 3 mineral rows to put it on a shard needlejet, your upgrade costs 30 more energy than an upgrade to a non-clean shard needlejet, whether you're upgrading a clean chaos needlejet or an ordinary chaos needlejet. Therefore, unless you keep your planes alive and unupgraded for a few decades (more as planes cost more), you don't recoup your expenses. When you factor interest, you lose even more. Thus, unless you like obsolete units, you come out behind when giving most needlejets clean.
Of course, if your cities are producing enough minerals to build both the clean and non-clean version in a single turn, the extra cost is reduced to zero, but if you can make a best-1-needle-best unit in a single turn, you don't need to worry about support either.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
livid imp
|
 |
Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
time: 21:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Commy
Apparently, when a needlejet looses health, its range is affected...so a badly damaged needlejet way out in the field may not be able to come home... |
I can confirm this. It has only happened to me a few times, so I am not sure if it is a bug or not. I have had jets running patrols straight out n back, nothing fancy. The jet runs into a ship at sea around the jet's max range, I attack said ship and attempt to go back to base next round. On my way back I run out of fuel a tile or two before the base. Nothing blocked my path coming home, I didn't move through any extra tiles. The only thing I did different was attack. Afterwards I counted back the tiles to confirm I should have had the move points to get back. It is like I lose a move point or two. I can't seem to recreate the situation, but it has happen to me 3 or 4 times. Stupidly, I never thought to try to reload the turn to see what happened. If it happeneds again, I plan on doing just that.
quote:
Originally posted by Commy
On thing that I haven't tried yet is if copters can be attacked by non-sam units when they make "emergency landings" |
Yes, they can. I had the AI do it to me just the other day. Strangely enough, this is the first time I had noticed this.
Last edited by livid imp on 15-04-2005 at 20:41
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Flubber
|
|
With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
Yes, they can. I had the AI do it to me just the other day. Strangely enough, this is the first time I had noticed this. |
Sure a copter is a ground unit when it faces a counterattack in the sense that the simplest rover can attack it
So one strategy is to have a needle/or interceptor provide air cover. It will still get killed if the opponet has SAM ground units to take out the air cover
As I have said many many times, there is no unit or combination of units in SMAC/X that has even a 50% chance of surving when in the open against opponents of similar tech. You can envision any stack of units you want and the attcker would have a cheaper stack that can kill it
Last edited by Flubber on 15-04-2005 at 21:21
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dis
|
 |
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
The thing is, when you upgrade a unit (presumably to another clean unit), you pay for the clean reactor again. If it cost you 2 mineral rows to put it on a chaos needlejet, and it costs you 3 mineral rows to put it on a shard needlejet, your upgrade costs 30 more energy than an upgrade to a non-clean shard needlejet, whether you're upgrading a clean chaos needlejet or an ordinary chaos needlejet. Therefore, unless you keep your planes alive and unupgraded for a few decades (more as planes cost more), you don't recoup your expenses. When you factor interest, you lose even more. Thus, unless you like obsolete units, you come out behind when giving most needlejets clean.
Of course, if your cities are producing enough minerals to build both the clean and non-clean version in a single turn, the extra cost is reduced to zero, but if you can make a best-1-needle-best unit in a single turn, you don't need to worry about support either. |
many of my units are for defensive purposes. I rarely use them until the last 1/3 of the game.
Yes even this last game I was using chaos and tachyon in the last 1/3 of the game. After I eliminated the believers from my continent, I started getting tech advances like every 2 turns, and then ever 1 turn. And before I knew it, I built the ascent to transcendence.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Flubber
|
|
With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
There is a short, but major exception to this: very early in the game. Hand weapons against no armor, lasers against synthmetal, and even impact weapons against plasma steel are all matchups that can be won by the defender in the open. Early wars can be over by this point. |
I agree -- The attacker advantage is negated somewhat in the early game since the attacker doesn't have the wide variety of attacking options that come with later tech discoveries
But this window can be very short given that impact can be gotten very very quickly. As for plasma defenders, they only come one tech before missile attackers so I generall see the 6 versus 3 matchup. Besides a plasma on a rocky has defnse of 4.5 versus an impact rover with an attack of 5 in the open . .. . still slightly losing odds
And during this time, unless you add trance, any of these units will have losing odds against a worm ( assuming equivalent morale/lifecycle)
Generally though the best survivability a ground unit in the open has is in the early game. Later when everyone has air units and arty and possible natives with a Planet attack bonus . . . Plus throw in the self destruct tactic if a defender stacks too much stuff
I actually like that early part of the game since a good road to allw you to control some key rocky squares can br the key to defeating a enemy with superior numbers
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Flubber
|
|
With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
many of my units are for defensive purposes. I rarely use them until the last 1/3 of the game.
Yes even this last game I was using chaos and tachyon in the last 1/3 of the game. After I eliminated the believers from my continent, I started getting tech advances like every 2 turns, and then ever 1 turn. And before I knew it, I built the ascent to transcendence. |
Do you mean they are garrisons since I often do a police/clean combo there.
I guess we play differently since I don't have many units sitting around. My preference is to build military only when I need it. Against the AI, the few mobile units I keep around for worm defense are sufficient until I can crank out more.
Offensive units almostimmediately go on the offense and in an attack I am quite willing to see them die since more are on the way
Usually I don't mind the earlier units disappearing if they are poorer morale ones anyway
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Commy
|
 |
St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:17
|
|
True, defense usually has an advantage, but since you never know what the offense will be, no single plan will save you...
I had a game with at least 250 clean reactor units dispersed among about 30 bases...almost all of them gravships...and yet, against all odds, I lost almost 10 bases to native life...hypnotic trance, missiles, empath song, even planet busters...they just can't stand up to hundreds of mindworms every other turn...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Zoetrope
|
 |
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Sep 1999
time: 05:17
|
|
When I was inexperienced, Lal's interloping trops got on my nerves, so I set gas on theirs ... repeatedly. Outcome: rapidly drowning planet, and massive worm riots galore! After losing my best bases to about 30 worms and locusts each per turn, that was one game I quit.
Fungus in late game produces enormous amounts of minerals per square, and the ecodamage causes it to expand, quickly worsening the problem.
BUT worm stacks "flower" only when fungus grows, and fungus can't grow where it already is, so when fungus becomes more productive than farms and mines, I pave my entire territory with fungus so it has nowhere to grow but outward (toward my foes, heh heh).
Then I breed worms and locusts by the hundred to cover my land and keep any stray natives off.
Occasionally a fungal tower will rear its ugly head; then I move my units away and give the menace a blast of psicosphate (or whatever it is that high morale empath units use as a psychotoxic chemical additive  : ).
Now I can generate hundreds of points of ecodamage at every base every turn with no ill-effects (to me  ).
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Senethro
|
|
Ummmmmm? How much gas are you guys using? I thought I was pretty atrocity happy but I've never had this problem? Then again, I've had trouble keeping my interest in games after my score graph is top and my satellites are flying up.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Commy
|
|
St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:17
|
|
You dont' neccessarily have to use nerve gas...playing as the morgans with -3 planet and 2-3 boreholes per base, along with forests, can cause a lot of damage just because of the minerals...add on robotic assembly plants, quantum converters, nanoreplicators...by now you will definitely be over a 100 eco-damage...having 20 Transcedent thoughts doens't help either, considering that the number of techs you have influence eco-damage...
As far as having mindworms every other turn, generally the swarms and boils wouldn't attack, or they would just move around, and then two turns worth would all attack at the same time...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mead
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Flubber
 I laugh as I had the same experience once as well in a MP game. I was gassing the crap out of an opponent and we even exchanged a couple of nukes but then we were both suddenly very distracted by the worm hordes and if that wasn't bad enough, the sea levels started to rise a lot ( over 2000 metres in 20 years)
Its an experience you only need to have once to learn how overwhelming the worms can be. Defending against them seems futile as the stacks are often 10 big such that a base might face 40 or 50 attacks if you are defending . Much smarter to be able to attack and eliminate those stacks in a few shots. I don't think I would want to go down the mass gassing route again unless I had at least 2 empath rovers (one of them with SAM) in EVERY base. Even then I'd feel a lot better with and arty unit and empath chopper per base as well |
An effective counter to mass worm attacks is active defense.
Make one or two bases you Mega Polluting Bases. The higher the eco damage in these bases the better. Try to get well into the triple digits.
First, ensure your bases are well equipped with empath/artillary, empath/SAM/Artillary (ships are the only way you can get all three special capabilities in one unit), empath ground units, plus some aviation units to scout and clean up the stray native life forms.
The large pops of MWs, IODs, and Locusts should appear near you big pollutors.
When they do, use your SAM artillary to soften up the locusts stacks then kill the entire stacks with surface units. Use the non SAM artilliary to soften up the MW and IOD stacks then kill those stacks with surface units. Use aircraft to kill any stray native life form that may not be part of a stack, after softening with artillary if possible, (there's usually one or two MWs that are not part of a stack).
Ususally, if you are polluting sufficiently, you'll have no trouble raising the sea levels fast enough to allow all your SAM/Empath ships to attack anywhere near your big polutting bases.
I only did one game where I purposely tried to make Planet as angry as I could (major pollution, PBs, and Gas). It was so easy defeating Planet that I have not tried a high pollution game since. Really, all you end up doing is watching pops, striking them with empath SAM artilliary followed by surface attack and then waiting for the next turn to repeat the cycle and to kill scores more.
Mead
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Flubber
|
|
With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mead
An effective counter to mass worm attacks is active defense.
Make one or two bases you Mega Polluting Bases. The higher the eco damage in these bases the better. Try to get well into the triple digits.
First, ensure your bases are well equipped with empath/artillary, empath/SAM/Artillary (ships are the only way you can get all three special capabilities in one unit), empath ground units, plus some aviation units to scout and clean up the stray native life forms.
The large pops of MWs, IODs, and Locusts should appear near you big pollutors.
When they do, use your SAM artillary to soften up the locusts stacks then kill the entire stacks with surface units. Use the non SAM artilliary to soften up the MW and IOD stacks then kill those stacks with surface units. Use aircraft to kill any stray native life form that may not be part of a stack, after softening with artillary if possible, (there's usually one or two MWs that are not part of a stack).
Ususally, if you are polluting sufficiently, you'll have no trouble raising the sea levels fast enough to allow all your SAM/Empath ships to attack anywhere near your big polutting bases.
I only did one game where I purposely tried to make Planet as angry as I could (major pollution, PBs, and Gas). It was so easy defeating Planet that I have not tried a high pollution game since. Really, all you end up doing is watching pops, striking them with empath SAM artilliary followed by surface attack and then waiting for the next turn to repeat the cycle and to kill scores more.
Mead |
A good plan. If you check some old threads you will find I have advocated this very thing several times although in my variation one of the benefits of the polluter base was to raise your mineral limits so high that you could reassign a few crawlers and then have SEVERAL very high mineral bases with Zero ecodamage
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Flubber
|
|
With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
|
|
To caary on
Its situational-- sometimes its best to sink the world while other times you stop polluting and just enjoy having a lot of production pollution free and use your formers to keep you out of the drink fro earlier sea rises.
I do love SAM arty and have advocated it many times for people with worm problems. Generally though worm problems can be handled if you have a healthy empath unit available for each stack as it appears. An empath scout is not that expensive after all
|
|
| |
|
|
|
BlackCat
|
|
If you start on a 4x4 island on a 192x192 map with 70-90 % sea, that chop'n dropping isn't that easy - you need either space elev or carrier, and they come damn late - at that time I've rasied enough land to reach the enemies without. Crazy ? maybe, but I find that some of the fun.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:17.
Apolyton Time is 00:17. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
15-04-2005 03:24
.
Needless to say, Planet was more than a little upset with me. I was getting a fungal pops every round. I kept plenty of empath rovers around to kick Mother Planet in her big pink a$$. Each stack of worms would run about 130ecs..... Chaaaaaa-ching!
|
|