13-04-2005 07:06									#1
	Are Needlejets worthless or neccessary... Remove this text

No, I'm not asking about is air power necessary, but are needlejets...

I was just wondering, are there any advantages needlejets have over gravships and copters...any at all...just curious, because I usually get MMI before I can prototype a needlejet, so I rarely build them...

	13-04-2005 07:22									#2
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I like to use them on a large or huge map to patrol the from the outer bases. Their greater range makes them the choice for me, plus I'll have an interceptor or two in these bases also.
I also use them to block the advance of troops when necessary

I'm with you for attack though. Choppers and antigrav drop units work well.

Last edited by fender on 13-04-2005 at 08:11

	13-04-2005 07:42									#3
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Well, needles do have one or two advantages which present themselves to the shrewd player. Most obviously, their longer range gives them an advantage over the traditional copter, allowing them to patrol further afield. Second, their ability maintain station between turns without suffering damage makes them ideal for blocking the approach of reinforcement, especially when fighting forces unequiped with SAM or Interceptors.

	13-04-2005 08:15									#4
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Then, too, Doc:Air comes well before MMI (in a current SP game, I'm Miriam, and have Sparta on one side and the Hive on the other, both in vendetta. For 20 years I was the only power with noodles, and managed to enslave Sparta in that time (in fact, I have the tech lead - go figure.)

	13-04-2005 08:29									#5
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Yes, I keep a large contingent of needlejets near each frontier (but dispersed and based just far enough in not to be easy targets). Especially useful against the hordes (e.g. Yang or Maar) is to block each enemy approach path by swapping jets in and out so that the ground swarms never get a chance to progress beyond my designated kill zones. Bottling up the enemy troops also makes them easy targets for concentrated assault by choppers.

Isolated troops (or solitary remnants) are easy pickings; I may send probe teams after them. Particularly useful when performed behind enemy lines along the main paths of approach. Must keep scouting!

One advantage that airstrips (forgot the SMAC term) have over bases is that they are immune to probe team attacks. Therefore it can be useful to have airstrips as well as bunkers and sensors, to prepare against enemy approaches. Bunkers and airstrips are even better than sensors in that you can use them in forward positions, even deep inside enemy territory. For best use, plan construction well ahead of war.

Capturing the enemy's own positions (mines, boreholes, high ground, bunkers, rocky squares, sensors, strategically located troops) in the course of a multipronged attack on his/her resources (to cripple them) and bases (for techs and energy) can really blunt their defence. Which way to turn? Where will the next push come from? What will it be? Air? Ground? Sea? Covert? Oh no! Every kind! Everywhere!

If victory can't be quick, sustain the enemy's sheer panic!

	13-04-2005 08:35									#6
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I didn't mention one other thing I love to use Needles for. Again due to the great range I just love bombing enemy mines, roads, farms, etc. Anything and everything I can.

Sounds a bit cheap, but I like it.

	13-04-2005 12:35									#7
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I like to use noodles for attacking opposing bases. Already discussed, the range is ridiculous.

I also like to use 'em to destroy enemy reinforcements in transit to the front line. Cutting off enemy units before they can shore up the defense is always a good one.

	13-04-2005 12:39									#8
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I never use copters. Am I weird? I prefer needlejets and interceptors.

	13-04-2005 12:50									#9
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Hmmm, depending on what faction you play I guess. Choppa's are great for offensive factions...and I guess noodles and interceptors are good as a reactionary force.

But I usually get Doc: Air before MMI. Weird....

	13-04-2005 13:55									#10
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sure they can attack more than once, but usually they are so damaged, they can't. And Then you can't get them back to base, so they die.

They were great when I was playing on lower or mid levels. Copters could clean out a base. But it's pretty easy when you are going up against synthmetal defenders.

	13-04-2005 15:18									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident sure they can attack more than once, but usually they are so damaged, they can't. And Then you can't get them back to base, so they die. They were great when I was playing on lower or mid levels. Copters could clean out a base. But it's pretty easy when you are going up against synthmetal defenders.

Race up to Shard & Fusion and your copters should be able to rip the hell out of the AI.

	13-04-2005 15:21									#12
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Oh, and I don't often build needle jet bombers. When I do it's for long range reconaissance, typically to keep an eye on or block a bottleneck. I usually build my interceptors on needle jet chassis so that they are easily discernable from my attack choppers.

	13-04-2005 20:58									#13
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i love copters but im currently addicted to planet based armies. i guess playing as the gians does that.

	13-04-2005 21:00									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Hmmm, depending on what faction you play I guess. Choppa's are great for offensive factions...and I guess noodles and interceptors are good as a reactionary force. But I usually get Doc: Air before MMI. Weird....

Everbody usually gets Doc air before MMI

	13-04-2005 21:03									#15
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Needles have their uses . Choppers obviously rock for the multiple attacks but needles are better for the long range sniping. I also use them for bombing against an AI since I can take out sensors and make attacks easier. I generally build a lot of them since depending on the circumstances it can take 5 to 20 years to get to MMI when I'll REALLY go to war and I want to begin softening up the defenses of my enemies

	13-04-2005 21:07									#16
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Oh and to answer the question . . .

Needles are neither necessary or worthless. I can make an effective attack force without them but they have their uses

	14-04-2005 05:12									#17
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choppers do cause police problems though right? Just like needlejets?

	14-04-2005 12:50									#18
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needlejest cause HUGE police problems, even when inside their homebase (at least the bombers do) not sure about choppers though

	14-04-2005 13:03									#19
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...but's that's what the 1-1-1 Police do.

"Teach those Drones a lesson!!!"

	14-04-2005 13:12									#20
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yeah I was messing around with copters today. I don't know why I began using them less. Though I should mention I was fighting the believers who weren't technologically advanced. I was going up against 3resonance units. I could usually get about 2 or 3 inside a base before they become too damaged.

Though copters such for psi combat . spore launchers were kicking my ass.

I just finished my game going up against the aggressive factions. Spartans, hive, believers, drones, caretakers, and usurpers. On huge map of planet.

	14-04-2005 14:10									#21
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I don't use them much, but then I don't go so much for ari units themselves. Normally I use them for short range attacks and creating new bases not too far inland when playing as the Pirates.

Sometimes, just to annoy the AI I give a transport cruiser carrier deck and put land and air units on. I normally unload everything land based by a base, sail off and then attack them with the needlejets.
Which makes it far easier to take the base.

	14-04-2005 18:51									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Though copters such for psi combat . spore launchers were kicking my ass.

The much maligned Spore Launcher, while still not as good as a standard mind worm, has its place in air and sea defense. Especially if said SL is of the "independent" variety. Even if not independent, you can leave em in a patch of fungus along shorelines for sea-to-coast bombardment defense. But I prefer to keep em in a forward base as air defense. Since natives attack and defend at a 1:1 ratio on sea and air, natives strip that Plasma Shard or Tacyon Bolt aircraft down to hand gun status. Since you are fighting on a 1:1 scale, those +25% for sensors and defending a base add up to a win. Even if they are packing the empath ability, they'd still only break even.

	14-04-2005 20:41									#23
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp The much maligned Spore Launcher, while still not as good as a standard mind worm, has its place in air and sea defense. Especially if said SL is of the "independent" variety. Even if not independent, you can leave em in a patch of fungus along shorelines for sea-to-coast bombardment defense. But I prefer to keep em in a forward base as air defense. Since natives attack and defend at a 1:1 ratio on sea and air, natives strip that Plasma Shard or Tacyon Bolt aircraft down to hand gun status. Since you are fighting on a 1:1 scale, those +25% for sensors and defending a base add up to a win. Even if they are packing the empath ability, they'd still only break even.

Good point. Native life has less utility on the attack as the game goes on since they are simply too expensive slow and weak. Anyone with a tech edge should be going conventional. But for someone behind in the tech race, worms/natives can provide reasonable defence where it would otherwise not exist. The only downfall is that if you are not getting Planet captures, the natives still tend to be rather expensive. Whenever I see an opponent going "native" I up my production of cheap empath units and consider a switch to "Green" ( if possible).

Even then, the defender probably still has more defensibility than they would with their obsolete conventional units

	14-04-2005 23:44									#24
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Yea, I should have mentioned that they still aren't really worth building. If you happen to have them, don't disband them, use em for defense. A Tacyon Bolt Jet has twice the chance of winning against a 1-3-1 AAA Garrison, than it does against a Spore Launcher. That Spore Launcher is worth a 1-6-1 AAA Garrison against a Tacyon Bolt Jet. Let's face it, no one has Probablity defense a the time they get Plasma Shard or Tacyon Bolt. Natives are the only way to get that kind of air defense, that early. It might be the only time natives are worth building.

If your enemy starts using empath jets, then you have forced him to spend at least 50% more on his air force. If it comes down to a battle of attrition, that will be the killer

	15-04-2005 00:34									#25
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp If your enemy starts using empath jets, then you have forced him to spend at least 50% more on his air force. If it comes down to a battle of attrition, that will be the killer

Well yes and no -- my empath gun unit will be cheaper than my vanilla shard unit but the problem for the attacker is that the best defender defends so if you cheap out on the weapon, a native stacked with a conventional unit can be a decent defensive combo.

Personally I might build something like a chaos empath unit. Its weapon is still good enough to beat the conventional defenders in your scenario . . .But don't mind me as I often have all kinds of different units for difefrent purposes. heck I'll still be building impact units even when I have attack 13 weapons.

	15-04-2005 00:54									#26
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I used to build cheapo empath units. But the best defender screws that up. I had some laser empath units (ground units in this case) from early in the game. But instead of attacking the native life, the 3-res defenders kick in.

The only alteranitive is to put empath on my chaos and tachyon (what I was using at the time) units. That means I have to take the clean reactor off.

	15-04-2005 02:49									#27
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Why do you have clean reactors on chaos/tachyon units? You'll never recoup the cost unless you like obsolete units.

	15-04-2005 03:01									#28
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Okay, so I played around with both copters and noodles...

Apparently, when a needlejet looses health, its range is affected...so a badly damaged needlejet way out in the field may not be able to come home...

On the other hand, a copter's range isn't effected by damage, and copters can attack more than once...yet the original range isn't quite as far...

On thing that I haven't tried yet is if copters can be attacked by non-sam units when they make "emergency landings"

	15-04-2005 03:22									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Why do you have clean reactors on chaos/tachyon units? You'll never recoup the cost unless you like obsolete units.

Agreed

I put clean on formers and some garrisons-- My top flight weaponry is out there to fight and die and I often don't find it survives long enough to make clean worthwhile

	15-04-2005 03:23									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Commy Apparently, when a needlejet looses health, its range is affected...so a badly damaged needlejet way out in the field may not be able to come home...

Weird I have NEVER seen this. If my needle is 95% damaged it still makes it home even if it attacked at maximum range