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Frankychan
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In the Kingdom of Hawaii (CPA Member)
Sep 2001
time: 19:35
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Boshko:
1st point. I'm not talking about revenge or vengeance. I'm talking about how a nation that's been taken advantage of for centuries has finally wised up and is ready to try and beat it's opponent by his/her opponents own rules. I see China as saying "Ok, you wanna play by rule X, ok...we can play by rule X AND beat you at it." For instance, I watched an investigational report where an American company is getting it's tail kicked because China realized that they can make the same product, ship it over here, undercut the homegrown company, AND still make a profit. (the company was a sock maker). Same thing for Japan. Japan see's how America makes cars and says "ok, THIS is how you make cars" and beats our automobile makers with the efficiency and how well their cars are made.
So...while the companies in the US are complaining about the costs, they also turn around and complain about countries importing goods that are just as good as homegrown products.
2nd point. No I'm not denying that Taiwan is a democracy now. Hell no. What I'm talking about is Taiwan's foundations. Regardless of the fact and whether or not it is "right", Taiwan IS a rogue state. You gotta look past all the "democracy is right" and all the media fog that has been going on for decades. Sh**, I'M even distracted by the media. The majority of Chinese decided that they were tired of the bullcrap and polizei actions of Kai-shek and went with Mao. And with American assistance, he fled his ass to Taiwan...foreign assitance. Now, does that sound like an internal matter to you if foreign assistance was solicited?
3rd point. The majority of the people supported communism...therefore, I support the people.
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Bosh
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Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
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quote:
I'm talking about how a nation that's been taken advantage of for centuries has finally wised up and is ready to try and beat it's opponent by his/her opponents own rules. |
Again, sounds exactly like early 20th-century Japan.
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What I'm talking about is Taiwan's foundations. |
Right, Taiwan's foundations were **** and they were still able to produce a democracy. Main-land China can do the same for exactly the same reasons.
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Taiwan IS a rogue state. |
So?
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You gotta look past all the "democracy is right" and all the media fog that has been going on for decades. |
Wha?
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The majority of Chinese decided that they were tired of the bullcrap and polizei actions of Kai-shek and went with Mao. And with American assistance, he fled his ass to Taiwan...foreign assitance. Now, does that sound like an internal matter to you if foreign assistance was solicited? |
Again so what? Did I ever say anything good about Chang Kai Shek? I know the history of early 20th century China quite well. All that I'm saying is that Taiwan is democratic NOW.
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The majority of the people supported communism...therefore, I support the people. |
Past tense. Do they never get to change their minds? Also choosing between an unappealing communist dictatorship and an unappealing military dictatorship isn't much of a choice.
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That's exactly what I was thinking when I read that. And, sadly, Franky is on the money in his view of Chinese motives... |
Do you have any quotes of old Japanese leaders blathering about being a "first class nation?" I tried google and couldn't find anything.
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They both worship living people as gods. Li is said to be "the biggest Buddha," whatever that means. |
So?
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They both predicted the end of the world. Li wrote in his own book that Deng Xiapang asked him to postone the end by 30 years. |
Again, so?
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They squeeze money out from followers. How else do you think Li could live in the US in luxury? |
This is different from 99% of other religions how?
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4. They brainwash their followers and try to isolate them from society. |
This is different from vast numbers of other religions how?
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The list keeps on going, up to and include terrorist acts. |
Wha???? Link?
Also when you cut through all the BS, the current Chinese government is evil pure and simple. The Chinese police currenty send all the NKorean refugees they can catch back to NKorea where they will face torture and long imprisonment at the best. I refuse to be an apologist for evil and I am disgusted when others do so.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankychan
Boshko:
1st point. I'm not talking about revenge or vengeance. I'm talking about how a nation that's been taken advantage of for centuries has finally wised up and is ready to try and beat it's opponent by his/her opponents own rules. I see China as saying "Ok, you wanna play by rule X, ok...we can play by rule X AND beat you at it." For instance, I watched an investigational report where an American company is getting it's tail kicked because China realized that they can make the same product, ship it over here, undercut the homegrown company, AND still make a profit. (the company was a sock maker). Same thing for Japan. Japan see's how America makes cars and says "ok, THIS is how you make cars" and beats our automobile makers with the efficiency and how well their cars are made.
So...while the companies in the US are complaining about the costs, they also turn around and complain about countries importing goods that are just as good as homegrown products.
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This has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion. If anything, you can make a vague connection with the fact that the chinese automakers, for the glory of the fatherland, of course, are paying their floor workers much lower wages.
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2nd point. No I'm not denying that Taiwan is a democracy now. Hell no. What I'm talking about is Taiwan's foundations. Regardless of the fact and whether or not it is "right", Taiwan IS a rogue state. You gotta look past all the "democracy is right" and all the media fog that has been going on for decades. Sh**, I'M even distracted by the media. The majority of Chinese decided that they were tired of the bullcrap and polizei actions of Kai-shek and went with Mao. And with American assistance, he fled his ass to Taiwan...foreign assitance. Now, does that sound like an internal matter to you if foreign assistance was solicited?
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I thought we've all matured to see beyond rules of "natural laws of dealing with nations", or crap like that. What happened, historically, right or wrong, makes no sense reversing, if you know you'll make stuff worse. The situation on the ground is that Taiwan's people enjoy more personal freedom than if they were under mainland rule. Imagine if someone claimed that Finland has to return to Russia, because the Soviets, who let it go, were an "outside intervention", or "proxy agents" of Germany: hell, even if it was true.... why on earth?
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3rd point. The majority of the people supported communism...therefore, I support the people. |
It maybe right... but what's done is sooooo done, for so much time, reversing it is massively unproductive, unrealistic and purposeless.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankychan
Ok, while I'll admit that the Falun Gong isn't in comparison to the Aum Shin cult. I don't really know what's up with the FG. Aum was preaching happiness and all that good stuff, so I don't know if the Gong are doing similar stuff.
Honestly, I don't believe China can have the same idea of democracy as China. Come on, S. Korea is so heavily influenced by America it's ridiculous. China is waaaaaay more independent than Korea was/is. Look at it's history. Korea had it's own monarchy, but paid tribute to China just cause it acknowledged that China influenced them.
The Korean War? American intervention. S. Korea STILL is a pseudo-American military base. Just like Japan. I want Japan to become independent of America just cause if something does happen, at least we (America) don't necessarily have to get involved. I hope Japan re-arms itself for defensive purposes.
But going back to the original subject. Look, China and it's history is older than America and Europe. Sorry gang, that's the truth. Therefore, I think we should at least try to understand them before we make prejudgments. And don't get me wrong, I'm loyal to America....but to just say 'China is Evil' is stupid. |
Dude, do some reading. Japan doesn't need to "rearm itself for defensive purposes", it's been #2 or #3 in military spending for many years now. Neither Japan or South Korea is a psuedo-American military base. Have you noted anything that's happened in the last several years in Korea?
As for China's history being older than European history, I'm not so sure. It's hard to say exactly because it depends on what one considers history, and for that matter what one considers Europe or China. Comparing the Xia dynasty to the Minoan civilization for instance, they are roughly contemporaries. Of course both Chinese history and European history are younger than the histories of both Egypt and Mesopotamia. What this has to do with the debate at hand I don't know. But I agree that simply saying that China is evil is counterproductive. Making the same statement about their government seems to be merely a statement of fact.
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Frankychan
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In the Kingdom of Hawaii (CPA Member)
Sep 2001
time: 19:35
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Huh...where to begin...
Boshko-at least we can agree on something. Fascism in Asia would most likely look like WW2 Asia. As for your points:
As for Kai-shek, of course you didn't mention anything about him. I was using him as a reference for those who were trying to tie fascism with modern China. I won't doubt that Taiwan has made remarkable progress, but if you look at things in a historical sense, Taiwan belongs to China. It would be like one of the US states breaking off of the rest and becoming it's own nation (it's been done ala Civil War) and we've fought to gain back what was lost. I'm not saying that all the motives were the same, but in a way, they share the same reason.
The Confeds broke from the US, and the Union said that THAT wasn't happening. Same thing is going on with the Chinese situation. A part of the whole is missing, and China wants what it lost. (Drake see's where I'm coming from). Its the same thing, a part is broken off from the whole..and now the whole wants the part back.
Comrade Az:
Ok, I believe my first statement DOES INDEED have relevance toward the discussion about why China is doing what it's doing now. China is seeing how America is doing, economical policies, and is figuring out how to beat the competition.
Your second point, I used those examples to bring to light why mainland China might be thinking about with it's policies toward Taiwan. I'm not a Chinese National so I don't know about the personal freedoms, but from what I see and have encountered, Taiwan does afford it's citizens a little more luxuries than mainland China. However, to just say that "all Chinese citizens are oppressed and must be liberated" is unfounded stereotyping. I've met a SMACKLOAD of mainland chinese that can move around as they please. Are they oppressed? To me? Hell no they aren't...they might just have to go through a little more bureacracy than normal.
And the difference between Finland and Russia vs. Taiwan and China are how those countries were founded.
My third point which was rebutted...what done is done may not always stand true. Hong Kong? Turned over from British rule to Chinese rule. But I'm not saying that Taiwan turning over to Chinese rule would be the same...all I'm saying is that HK is an exception to the rule.
Oerdin:
Dude, what was that word they used? Lebenstraum? or something? True, Germany wanted all it's lost lands, but it (and he) wanted to expand further and further. Gaining lost lands was just the first step. Just look at Hitlers actions...ok, he got all his lost lands, but then he started expanding like mad.
While I don't doubt that a democratic people should decide their own fate, Taiwan's foundation is a different matter altogether. It's so political is crazy.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
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quote:
Ok, I believe my first statement DOES INDEED have relevance toward the discussion about why China is doing what it's doing now. China is seeing how America is doing, economical policies, and is figuring out how to beat the competition.
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Yeah, but what's the point in that? "beating the competition" has little to do with the ethical value of the state and/or society. Sure, china may produce more, as a result, but also, as a result, people are paid crap wages, when they could be paid more. It maximises profit for the owner, not wages paid in the country ( I am talking about sustainable wages, that could still be very competitive ). And since all of this is flavoured with a false nationalist pride argument, it's nothing more, and hardly better than anything the most cynical capitalist enviroment has ever produced. It's perhaps one of the best examples of it's kind, really.
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Your second point, I used those examples to bring to light why mainland China might be thinking about with it's policies toward Taiwan. I'm not a Chinese National so I don't know about the personal freedoms, but from what I see and have encountered, Taiwan does afford it's citizens a little more luxuries than mainland China. However, to just say that "all Chinese citizens are oppressed and must be liberated" is unfounded stereotyping. I've met a SMACKLOAD of mainland chinese that can move around as they please. Are they oppressed? To me? Hell no they aren't...they might just have to go through a little more bureacracy than normal.
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I am not talking just personal freedom to move around. I am talking about personal freedom to express one's ideas as well. It's not only about form, but a lot about essense. You can have, for example, free elections, but they aren't really free unless the field of play for opinion is equal. Sure, it may not be the case in Taiwan, or anywhere, at all, but it's all relative: China's still much more problematic.
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And the difference between Finland and Russia vs. Taiwan and China are how those countries were founded.
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Who cares? it was 60/90 years ago! Most of these people are dead!
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My third point which was rebutted...what done is done may not always stand true. Hong Kong? Turned over from British rule to Chinese rule. But I'm not saying that Taiwan turning over to Chinese rule would be the same...all I'm saying is that HK is an exception to the rule.
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Precisely. An exception to the rule - and hell, even HK is facing some problems.
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Frankychan
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In the Kingdom of Hawaii (CPA Member)
Sep 2001
time: 19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
quote:
Ok, I believe my first statement DOES INDEED have relevance toward the discussion about why China is doing what it's doing now. China is seeing how America is doing, economical policies, and is figuring out how to beat the competition.
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Yeah, but what's the point in that? "beating the competition" has little to do with the ethical value of the state and/or society. Sure, china may produce more, as a result, but also, as a result, people are paid crap wages, when they could be paid more. It maximises profit for the owner, not wages paid in the country ( I am talking about sustainable wages, that could still be very competitive ). And since all of this is flavoured with a false nationalist pride argument, it's nothing more, and hardly better than anything the most cynical capitalist enviroment has ever produced. It's perhaps one of the best examples of it's kind, really.
quote:
Your second point, I used those examples to bring to light why mainland China might be thinking about with it's policies toward Taiwan. I'm not a Chinese National so I don't know about the personal freedoms, but from what I see and have encountered, Taiwan does afford it's citizens a little more luxuries than mainland China. However, to just say that "all Chinese citizens are oppressed and must be liberated" is unfounded stereotyping. I've met a SMACKLOAD of mainland chinese that can move around as they please. Are they oppressed? To me? Hell no they aren't...they might just have to go through a little more bureacracy than normal.
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I am not talking just personal freedom to move around. I am talking about personal freedom to express one's ideas as well. It's not only about form, but a lot about essense. You can have, for example, free elections, but they aren't really free unless the field of play for opinion is equal. Sure, it may not be the case in Taiwan, or anywhere, at all, but it's all relative: China's still much more problematic.
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And the difference between Finland and Russia vs. Taiwan and China are how those countries were founded.
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Who cares? it was 60/90 years ago! Most of these people are dead!
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My third point which was rebutted...what done is done may not always stand true. Hong Kong? Turned over from British rule to Chinese rule. But I'm not saying that Taiwan turning over to Chinese rule would be the same...all I'm saying is that HK is an exception to the rule.
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Precisely. An exception to the rule - and hell, even HK is facing some problems. |
Ok:
First of all, it seems like we're talking about two different aspects. You seem to be talking about the economics while I'm talking about the (possible) social motivations behind their actions. Of course I don't agree with the exploitation of their workers. My main point behind my arguments and my devils advocating is just that we have to try and understand China's motives.
Second point. Ok, conceded.
Third, that's just like saying history is dead. Learning about the history of ANY nation helps in determining why a nation is the way it is NOW. The previous generation passes down it's values and mores to the next generation whether we like it or not.
Fourth.  Dunno what to say, actually.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
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quote:
First of all, it seems like we're talking about two different aspects. You seem to be talking about the economics while I'm talking about the (possible) social motivations behind their actions. Of course I don't agree with the exploitation of their workers. My main point behind my arguments and my devils advocating is just that we have to try and understand China's motives. |
For me, I see it quite clearly. An unaccountable elite of bureaucrats co-opts/uses an extremely harsh strata of capitalists to create more wealth for China, and then to use to their own benefits/goals. Had they wanted to industrialize the country for their own benefits, they'd pay higher wages. Instead, they are concentrating the wealth created in the hands of the government and corprorations. They are using humans purely as capital, and while it may be the most efficient, productive, etc. thing to do ( after all, luxuries used by people are nothing more that waste if productivity isn't increased by their creation, and are counter-productive if the productivity decreases. ), this is not a reason to use their cash to aquire luxuries to themselves, which are far more wasteful in term of happiness creation, and this is not a reason to build up a military arsenal.
The PRC is making the face of being the harsh parent who wants their sons and daughters to grow up strong, independent and succesful, but is really manipulating their offspring to work in the field for him. To "build character", of course.
To continue the metaphore, the kid needs to be sent much more to school, and do less work in the shoe factory, even though they're still young, tender, and relatively undeveloped.
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Third, that's just like saying history is dead. Learning about the history of ANY nation helps in determining why a nation is the way it is NOW. The previous generation passes down it's values and mores to the next generation whether we like it or not. |
Sometimes it passes, sometimes the next generation is transformed by events out of the reach of the former generation. I know this very well, myself, from own country. History is not dead. But the only reason it's important is a learning tool of examples of past moves and mistakes, and to understand the reasons why things are they way they are now. Not claims of ownership, not past revenges. It's like some people here saying that: a) we have claim to this land because we lived here 2k years ago - zilch. We have a claim to this land because we build the ****er up from scratch. b) the germans of today should somehow feel bad for the holocaust - again: they weren't even on the drawing board. Same thing goes to people who think that the palestinians should return to this country - moralistic idiocy that tries to right wrongs, and creates mountains of pain in the process.
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25-04-2005 11:32
Most of the "rightful Chinese territory" hasn't been held by China for Centuries or even thousands of years. This is like the UK demanding half of France or Italy claiming parts of the ancient Roman Empire and it is not islolationist; it is aggressive expansionism. 
They only go there because the Northern border of NKorea is MUCH MUCH easier to get across than the DMZ.
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