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trevie jake
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Canada
Apr 2005
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Franky,
1) Taiwan hasn't been under control of China for but 35 of the last 400 years. In the last century it has controlled Taiwan for 4 years and for the last 60 years Taiwan has been 100% self governing without any foreign Imperial power.
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Okay, before this gets out of hand and becomes a "fact":
From 1661 to 1683 Taiwan was ruled by Koxinga (and descendants), a Chinese Ming-loyalist seeking to use Taiwan as a base to regain the Mainland from Manchu invaders. (Notice any parallels...?) The Manchus invaded, and Taiwan was then ruled by the Manchu Empire for over two centuries, from 1683 to 1895, when it was ceded to Japan. After 50 years of Japanese rule, it became a part of the Republic of China in 1945. And until democratization, the Republic of China was effectively a regime run by Mainlanders.
So no, it's not "35 out of 400 years".
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Frankychan
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In the Kingdom of Hawaii (CPA Member)
Sep 2001
time: 19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
quote:
First of all, it seems like we're talking about two different aspects. You seem to be talking about the economics while I'm talking about the (possible) social motivations behind their actions. Of course I don't agree with the exploitation of their workers. My main point behind my arguments and my devils advocating is just that we have to try and understand China's motives. |
For me, I see it quite clearly. An unaccountable elite of bureaucrats co-opts/uses an extremely harsh strata of capitalists to create more wealth for China, and then to use to their own benefits/goals. Had they wanted to industrialize the country for their own benefits, they'd pay higher wages. Instead, they are concentrating the wealth created in the hands of the government and corprorations. They are using humans purely as capital, and while it may be the most efficient, productive, etc. thing to do ( after all, luxuries used by people are nothing more that waste if productivity isn't increased by their creation, and are counter-productive if the productivity decreases. ), this is not a reason to use their cash to aquire luxuries to themselves, which are far more wasteful in term of happiness creation, and this is not a reason to build up a military arsenal.
The PRC is making the face of being the harsh parent who wants their sons and daughters to grow up strong, independent and succesful, but is really manipulating their offspring to work in the field for him. To "build character", of course.
To continue the metaphore, the kid needs to be sent much more to school, and do less work in the shoe factory, even though they're still young, tender, and relatively undeveloped.
quote:
Third, that's just like saying history is dead. Learning about the history of ANY nation helps in determining why a nation is the way it is NOW. The previous generation passes down it's values and mores to the next generation whether we like it or not. |
Sometimes it passes, sometimes the next generation is transformed by events out of the reach of the former generation. I know this very well, myself, from own country. History is not dead. But the only reason it's important is a learning tool of examples of past moves and mistakes, and to understand the reasons why things are they way they are now. Not claims of ownership, not past revenges. It's like some people here saying that: a) we have claim to this land because we lived here 2k years ago - zilch. We have a claim to this land because we build the ****er up from scratch. b) the germans of today should somehow feel bad for the holocaust - again: they weren't even on the drawing board. Same thing goes to people who think that the palestinians should return to this country - moralistic idiocy that tries to right wrongs, and creates mountains of pain in the process. |
Comrade Az:
 Dammit, once I read your comment, I forgot what my point was about.  While I totally agree that the "elitists" should never gain their wealth from the toil and hardship of others, I won't agree in the fact that China's social motivations for re-absorbing Taiwan's soceity based on their "breakaway status" is NOT legitimate.
I don't like the fact that the Chinese people are being shepherded for the petty gains of the elitist few.
Second issue: Ok, of course we all know the famous quote "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it". Neither do I feel that understanding the past should warrant a -FREE PASS- for revenge. But at the same time, neither should we ignore the history of a nations foundations while we try and figure out why a nation presently is acting in such a way. I'd say one of the biggest preditctors of a nations behavior is its past history AS WELL AS ITS CURRENT NEEDS.
For China's sake, sure they're probably one of the oldest nations still in existence today, but if we just take their past 100 years of history...I'll bet we will gain a better insight on their current actions than someone who has just studied their present-day thinking.
History not only teaches what mistakes to not repeat, but also of current behavior passed down culturally IMHO.
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trevie jake
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Canada
Apr 2005
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by aneeshm
... And I sincerely hope that that government goes down .
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If the government goes down, it's not unlikely that the disenchanted poor left behind by capitalism will put an ultra-extremist Maoist government back into power. That's assuming that some form of government is put back into power.
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Alinestra Covelia
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I sense the dodgy presence of Bing - a presence I've not felt since...
Feb 2000
time: 00:35
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The funny thing about this thread is that my ex-housemate was also named Hu - we called him Hu Man Bing (true story).
And to be disappointed in HMB, you'd have to entertain expectations of... well, anything. So he never did prove disappointing, really!
My residency in China was almost entirely under Deng and Jiang, so I don't pretend to any authority about Hu. But I don't think it's really fair to call the man a "big disappointment". He's consolidated the grip of the ruling party, overseen continued breakneck growth, shaken his saber at the Japanese and Taiwanese, and extended the cordial olive branch of peaceful hegemony to India, Pakistan, Russia, and various other neighbors. I'd say that counts as status quo.
Now, if Hu had orchestrated a disastrous economic reversal, coupled with a secession of the component ethnic minorities in the northwest and Tibet, while standing helpless as foreign powers shelled and seized key port cities, disassembling the nation's production centers one by bloody one as their armies marched through the burning embers of the nation's capital singing "This is not a full-blown rape / Lo - it is merely an incident!" - THEN I might feel compelled to give gentle voice to feelings of disappointment.
Same goes if they lose to the Germans again in the World Cup like they did in 2002.
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26-04-2005 19:04
Who cares about other people, right? 
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