 |
| |
|
|
Sikander
|
 |
Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:35
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Frankychan
You gotta be kidding me. Military spending doesn't equate to size. Do you know that their military and their government have a really awkward communications problem? If I spend 100 million dollars on a spy satellite versus 100 million for tanks and guns, doesn't that make a difference? |
Your example doesn't seem to clarify your point. Sure, military spending doesn't necessarily mean anything. It could all be used to build a Maginot type line, or be squandered, stolen, whatever. But in the case of the Japanese we know that haven't completely wasted their money. They've got sh!tloads of F-15s, enough to defeat the Chinese Airforce a hundred times over. They have significant anti-submarine warfare assets and the biggest and best navy in East Asia. They are only vulnerable to China's nuclear threat, and they currently are under the U.S. nuclear umbrella. If they happen to fall out with the U.S. they could build a sizable nuclear force within a year. In the case of Japan 100 million dollars for a spy satellite is a much better investment than tanks and guns btw.
quote:
Originally posted by Frankychan
Lesse...Hmmm, Okinawa? The American military basically does whatever it wants (hyperbole) without much reprisals. There have been at LEAST 2 incidents where American military personnel have been accused of raping underage girls there and there have been no reprisals. The American convoy that crashed into an Okinawan crowd? "Sorry, it won't happen again". There have been so many damn protests to kick the American military out of there...but the Japanese government is so complacent its just crazy. |
I think your post would make more sense if you substituted the word "repercussions" for the word reprisals. Look them up and see if you agree. And there have been repercussions both legal and political for those rapes.
I lived on Okinawa for 6 years btw during the Vietnam War and visited there in October. My brother in law works for the U.S. military there. I spent a week traveling around the island (it's about 350 square miles, a tiny fraction of the area of Japan, and most of it isn't controlled by the U.S. military) with my dad's best friend who is Okinawan. So I do know a thing or two about Okinawa, and my information is pretty current as well as historical.
Most of the people are either in favor of keeping the U.S. troops there or are neutral on the question, despite the obvious visible protests by the others whenever a nasty incident occurs. This might have something to do with the fact that the Ryukyus get tons of aid from the Japanese government in return for puting up with the bases. The Japanese government considers it a small price to pay in return for being under the U.S. nuclear umbrella, and considering that that means that we'll go toe to toe with China, N.Korea or Russian in any nuclear conflagration they get into with Japan I can't help but agree.
The U.S. and Japan are both democracies which have been (mostly) run by rational educated leaders for the last almost 60 years, all of whom have found this relationship to be well worthwhile. What was an occupation in 1945 has grown into a longstanding mostly comfortable relationship between equals based on similar regional and global goals and mutual respect. Your implication that Japan is somehow like a Warsaw Pact member is an insult to both Japan and the U.S., and is simply, thouroughly wrong.
Oh, and I think the convoy incident happened in Korea if we are referring to the same incident, I don't recall one on Okinawa.
quote:
Originally posted by Frankychan
Second point. Ok ok. We agree that just saying "China is Evil" is wrong. But "evil" is relative. I could point out the wrongs of American society (yes, I AM thankful I am an American) but do these statements and observations make them fact? |
Sure. And Eva Braun thought that Hitler was wonderful, so he must have been wonderful right? I mean, she knew him better than anyone else so her opinion is not only as good as anyone else's, it stands to reason that it is superior in quality to the many millions of people who feel differently about Hitler but did not know him personally or witness his alleged deeds. Unless of course we admit that evil is really what people say is evil rather than some absolute concept the meaning of which is only known to some god somewhere who may or may not reveal his knowledge to a select few. Defining evil in this manner, I think more people would agree with me. The Chinese government is evil to the extent that few governments of such a sophisticated people are evil. I mean even Afghanistan is governed on a more moral basis than China.
There are always going to be differences of opinion, some of which will be based on a lack of information or distorted information (often on both sides), and others based on honest differences in perspective. You think police states are cool and want to work in the prison system. I'm a libertarian. So right off the bat one would expect a difference in opinion about many things even though much of our information is going to have come from the same sources.
You may still be right even if you are outnumbered, but it would behoove you to take an honest look at the information you have (and most Chinese will never have access to) before you get too emotionally involved with a system that systematically tries to keep its population ignorant and rightfully afraid of it.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Oerdin
|
 |
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:35
|
|
Franky,
1) Taiwan hasn't been under control of China for but 35 of the last 400 years. In the last century it has controlled Taiwan for 4 years and for the last 60 years Taiwan has been 100% self governing without any foreign Imperial power. Eventually China will have to accept the reality that Taiwan is independent especially if that is how the Taiwanese people democratically decide that is what they want.
2) China has not figured out how to out compete America. The US could easily destroy Chinese export lead economic expansion but returning to its previous isolationist policies, however, it is hoping that by encouraging the capitalist growth of China that the business class will eventually agitate for democratic reforms. This is what happened in South Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, and Thailand. It is what would have happened in South Vietnam had not murderous Communist aggressors destroyed that state. And with luck that is what will eventually happen in China.
3) The PRC's action continues to be pseudo fascist at best and down right fascist at worst. The on going racist campaign against Japan is proof enough of this. That the PRC continues to ally with North Korea (one of the world's most repressive and murderous regimes), ethnically cleans Tibetans and replace them with Han, occupy 1/4 of Kashmere, and continually threaten its neighbors and/or attempt to expand its territorial claims also does not help China's case.
4) I don't see why Taiwan is politically crazy nor do I see why the Taiwanese people should not be able to democratically decide there own future.
5) This whole talk of "Asian Democracy" as Mathir put it and as several Chinese leaders have called it is bunk. The Chinese are people like everyone else and they can easily understand and follow the inherent fairness of the democratic system of government. Taiwanese, Koreans, Japanese, Thai, and Indians are all Asians who have adapted well to democracy. I refuse to believe that Chinese are inferior and that they cannot become a democratic nation and instead they have a brutally repressive one party state which is attempting to prevent the people's wishes from becoming reality.
Last edited by Oerdin on 25-04-2005 at 17:18
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DanS
|
 |
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
|
|
I would have to see pretty good proof that Falun Gong are terrorists. We've never had any such problems with them, despite all sorts of opportunities.
Last edited by DanS on 25-04-2005 at 19:32
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
mindseye
|
 |
A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:35
|
|
Hu has been a disappointment (especially in media-related matters) to those hoping for blazing reform, but as has been pointed out, he's not a complete write-off. His attention to those left behind by development is refreshing after Jiang Zemin's near exclusive focus on the urban elite. The article also failed to mention some of his other better achievements, such as working to get China's AIDS act together.
But at the end of the day, Hu is just one guy in Beijing. And in China local politics are often what matters much more.
I think the quoted article, like a good deal of what you read in the western press about China, is superficially true but overly simplistic and lacking the context to make sense of what it really means on the streets and in the fields of China.
For example, you may read about a particular book being "banned", but you may have no way of knowing that in fact millions of copies are being sold at regular book stores all over the country. That is China, and you should bear that in mind whenever you read quotes from speeches (lots of boilerplate and window-dressing) or accounts of anything that sound particularly draconian (the truth is often fuzzier).
While the "crack-downs" and "campaigns" you read about are taking place, in many ways China's society is liberalizing and becoming increasingly information-savvy. A notable editor is canned at one paper, while at the same time other newspapers are printing stories and criticisms never allowed before. Protests are breaking out in parts of the country, while at the same time many in big cities are enjoying lifestyles absolutely unimagineable even a generation ago.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Frankychan
|
 |
In the Kingdom of Hawaii (CPA Member)
Sep 2001
time: 19:35
|
|
Dammit, I had a bunch of rebuttals and statements until Ted brought that pic in. 
quote:
Originally posted by mindseye
Hu has been a disappointment (especially in media-related matters) to those hoping for blazing reform, but as has been pointed out, he's not a complete write-off. His attention to those left behind by development is refreshing after Jiang Zemin's near exclusive focus on the urban elite. The article also failed to mention some of his other better achievements, such as working to get China's AIDS act together.
But at the end of the day, Hu is just one guy in Beijing. And in China local politics are often what matters much more.
I think the quoted article, like a good deal of what you read in the western press about China, is superficially true but overly simplistic and lacking the context to make sense of what it really means on the streets and in the fields of China.
For example, you may read about a particular book being "banned", but you may have no way of knowing that in fact millions of copies are being sold at regular book stores all over the country. That is China, and you should bear that in mind whenever you read quotes from speeches (lots of boilerplate and window-dressing) or accounts of anything that sound particularly draconian (the truth is often fuzzier).
While the "crack-downs" and "campaigns" you read about are taking place, in many ways China's society is liberalizing and becoming increasingly information-savvy. A notable editor is canned at one paper, while at the same time other newspapers are printing stories and criticisms never allowed before. Protests are breaking out in parts of the country, while at the same time many in big cities are enjoying lifestyles absolutely unimagineable even a generation ago. |
This pretty much sums up the gist of what I wanted to say. To just lay an overall stereotype about China being one way or another is total BS. The main point of my argument that I have been trying to say is that China seems (in my view) to want back everything it lost over the centuries.
For the Taiwan issue. I'm not talking about the land (island) itself. I'm talking about it's PEOPLE and quite possibly, its infrastructure. When I bring up Kai-shek, I bring it up because of Taiwans foundation. Kai flees to Taiwan right? China waits until those "leases" or whatever expire and slowly gets back all their port cities that they lost. But, mainland China looks out and sees Taiwan...that last bit of territory, social structure, whatever that it feels belongs back with the whole. Nevermind the island, it's the people and the history behind it that they (PRC) wants.
Sikander-Ok, for my first (and your) statement about all that military hardware, you know more about that stuff than I do. I'll admit that. But what I'm saying is that the budget doesn't necessarily reflect the size of the military force itself.
For the Okinawan comment, while you may have visited there and lived there, I won't deny that I have never been there. HOWEVER, I have firsthand experience dealing with the Uchinanchu people from there. You have to remember that Japanese culture isn't like American culture. They'll say "ok ok" but they might not like it. My Oki friends say that they don't like the fact that the American forces there seem to feel like they own the place. Don't get me wrong, they like the protection...they just don't like the injustices that are being done to the locals there. And the convoy incident may have also happened in Korea, but I do know that it happened in Okinawa as well.
Oerdin-
1) I'm not quite sure I understand your point. Do you mean the land itself, the natives of the island, or the transplanted Chinese government?
2) I believe that China is slowly wising up to the import/export game. Products made in China are made cheaper than those made in the US. They ship the stuff here, make a profit, and still undercut the homegrown product. I'm not saying that this is the only proof...but it looks like they are slowly beginning to understand the name of the game.
3)
3)  I guess you are right in the way the PRC is hardlining against said groups. I don't think it's a racist campaign against Japan though. I think it's more from the fact that Japan basically did the worst things possible to Chinese during the war and the Chinese are pissed that Japan isn't fessing up. I want to see Japan fess up to their war crimes, but unfortunately Japan is extremely stubborn and prideful.  I don't know what's going on in Western China so I cannot comment. But from my eyes, Eastern China looks like it just wants all their lost lands.
4) Huh. This looks like a complex issue. I don't want to look like an a**hole so I'll try and make this as clear as I can. While I don't disagree that Taiwan isn't totally crazy. I really do see them as a part of China. NEVERTHELESS, unless some kind of reunification happens, I'm perfectly happy to see Taiwan govern itself. HOWEVER, I feel that China does have a claim over Taiwan only from that nations foundations.
5) Ok, I don't think China is inferior nor it's people. However, it seems from your post that you equate democracy to inferiority/superiority. This might not be what your saying, and please correct me. But, just from history's sake, I don't see China having the same kind of democracy as the United States, UK, or the other Asian democracies. BUT, if China would ever become a "true" democracy, I would most likely see it as taking a similar shape as Japan...but seeing as how China and Japan aren't very friendly, they'd probably scrap anything similar to Japanese government.
-----
As I stated before, when I talk about Taiwan going back to China, I'm talking about it's people and government...not the land itself. Heck, if the Taiwanese government was in the Phillipines, I'd be saying the same stuff. Personally, I don't think it matters where the Taiwanese government is, it's the simple matter of it being in existence and not under the control of mailand China that is irking the PRC leadership.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:35.
Apolyton Time is 00:35. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
25-04-2005 16:07
Attachment: 
|
