03-05-2005 07:11									#151
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't see it as a necessary evil, nor more than I see any operation as a necessary evil. I have no problems with abortion. The only reason people do is cuz they've had it hammered into their heads by religious people that it's somehow wrong. It's part and parcel of the whole anti-sex movement. People have to be punished for having sex for fun. If you are careless or have an accident, you need to spend the next two decades taking care of another human being. Hell, you don't even go to prison for that long for raping someone.

I understand what you mean, when referring to the fundamentalists who are militant pro-life advocates. They're close-minded and ignorant about the issue.

But there are pro-choice people who, even though they allow for some circumstances when abortion is morally acceptable, they still cannot find it in themselves to reduce a fetus in such degrading terms as "lump of flesh."

I'm pro-choice, but I don't support all-out, free-for-all abortion. My pro-choice position is based on what a woman's circumstances were/are.

	03-05-2005 07:14									#152
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I understand what you mean, when referring to the fundamentalists who are militant pro-life advocates. They're close-minded and ignorant about the issue. But there are pro-choice people who, even though they allow for some circumstances when abortion is morally acceptable, they still cannot find it in themselves to reduce a fetus in such degrading terms as "lump of flesh." I'm pro-choice, but I don't support all-out, free-for-all abortion. My pro-choice position is based on what a woman's circumstances were/are.

Thank ya sir i have tried to say that all night..

	03-05-2005 07:16									#153
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thank you your highness

	03-05-2005 08:52									#154
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quote: they still cannot find it in themselves to reduce a fetus in such degrading terms as "lump of flesh."

That raises the question.

If it isn't a person, and it isn't a lump of flesh, what is it, Mr. Fun?

	03-05-2005 09:13									#155
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wouldn't it make more sense for the Florida legislators to spend more time on helping the local economy and running the government?

	03-05-2005 09:19									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That raises the question. If it isn't a person, and it isn't a lump of flesh, what is it, Mr. Fun?

Eh, I believe he meant "just a lump of flesh". Clearly, all people are lumps of flesh.

	03-05-2005 09:19									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse wouldn't it make more sense for the Florida legislators to spend more time on helping the local economy and running the government?

Exactly.

	03-05-2005 09:38									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse wouldn't it make more sense for the Florida legislators to spend more time on helping the local economy and running the government?

It's called the "Wag the Dog" effect, only instead of a war, they point to values.

	03-05-2005 10:17									#159
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quote: Eh, I believe he meant "just a lump of flesh". Clearly, all people are lumps of flesh.

So Mr. Fun believes unborn children are persons too?

That's an interesting take.

	03-05-2005 10:22									#160
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People < subset of < lump of flesh

	03-05-2005 10:22									#161
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In other news: "Worried Apolytoners try to force Ben Kenobi to lighten up".

C'mon Ben... we love ya!!!

	03-05-2005 10:37									#162
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nah, I'm happy.

I'm finally moving again!

	03-05-2005 10:39									#163
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quote: People < subset of < lump of flesh

Well, it seems Mr Fun, thinks that there is an intermediate between 'people' and 'lump of flesh'.

	03-05-2005 10:40									#164
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Cool

DId you buy last month's Maxim. Mariah all over it!!!!

	03-05-2005 10:49									#165
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I didn't even see it.

But there is a corner store down the way.

	03-05-2005 10:52									#166
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She looks nice, and I hear she's single. You want that I carry a sign declaring your love next time she's at Muchmusic here in TO?

	03-05-2005 10:54									#167
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Well, seeing as I am single too, that might not be such a bad idea.

	03-05-2005 10:54									#168
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Great. I haven't been arrested in a couple of months.

	03-05-2005 11:14									#169
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oh sure lets get ben arested cause aggie is bored

	03-05-2005 11:18									#170
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hey I don't need aggie to get arrested.

I can do that all by myself.

	03-05-2005 16:08									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If it isn't a person, and it isn't a lump of flesh, what is it, Mr. Fun?

A lump of flesh to which he attributes value, considering that given time, it'll become person (unlike,say, a kidney)

	03-05-2005 16:19									#172
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Kidney hater

	03-05-2005 21:46									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Well, it seems Mr Fun, thinks that there is an intermediate between 'people' and 'lump of flesh'.

I do not see the fetus as being a full-fledged person. During the earlier stages of development which is when a woman usually decides whether or not to have an abortion, a fetus does not have the same brain functioning level as a newborn baby.

	03-05-2005 21:53									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor A lump of flesh to which he attributes value, considering that given time, it'll become person (unlike,say, a kidney)

It may become a person. It's not a person yet. It becomes a person through a process of experience. Until the grey matter starts recording, it is nothing more than a lump of flesh. Yes, we are also lumps of flesh, bags of meat, etc. But we are more than that, and that is what makes us special, what makes us who we are, what differentiates us from a side of bacon.

	03-05-2005 22:31									#175
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It may become a person. It's not a person yet. It becomes a person through a process of experience. Until the grey matter starts recording, it is nothing more than a lump of flesh. Yes, we are also lumps of flesh, bags of meat, etc. But we are more than that, and that is what makes us special, what makes us who we are, what differentiates us from a side of bacon.

And I completely agree with that, though I consider the threshold to take place before birth (this difference between us on the timing strongly has to do with the structure of the debate in our countries, IMO)

	04-05-2005 17:44									#176
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That state dropped it's opposition and the girl has had her abortion.

Why does it take the baleful glare of the whole nation to get this state to act responsibly?

	04-05-2005 17:59									#177
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not a person yet. It becomes a person through a process of experience.

Why do you not support the killing of newborns again?

	04-05-2005 18:03									#178
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Because they don't necessarily require a specific individual to carry them. You can't take a fetus out of a mother and put it in some other willing woman.

	04-05-2005 18:07									#179
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They aren't people yet according to you. Why should they get any special protection?

	04-05-2005 18:09									#180
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For the same reason I don't believe in killing animals on a whim. Unless you're planning on eating the baby, there's no reason to kill it.

Furthermore, once it's born, removing it from her body is no longer a possibility. You cannot abort what is already born.