01-05-2005 18:28									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I realize that when you can't argue the merits of a case

I wasn't argueing anything. I haven't mentioned the 13 year old girl until now. The main reason why I failed to read the article. I was just curious about the justification for the ruling you cited as it struck me as odd. Doubly so now that I've learned that parental notification has been judged constitutional.

	01-05-2005 18:34									#62
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What is parental notification anyway? Just notifying the parents or are the parents allowed to stop the abortion from happening?

Oh, and Mrs. Tubes, if your kid was determined to run away, your only option to stop them would be to use physical force and monitor them 100% of the time. You could either turn their room into a jail cell and make sure their school didn't let them leave or you could send them to some private institution for troubled kids, but short of that, you can't stop them. The first option is illegal, the second is dangerous, as those places tend to be extremely abusive. If you're a foster parent, you don't have either option.

	01-05-2005 19:06									#63
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Florida Conservatives try to force 13 year old girl to not have an abort Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski I do know you were indeed. My statement is in general bout whether i need the ole mans permission to wipe my butt. Im sorry mr fun you havent had the pleasure of some of my dry humor since i came on while you were gone. Little heads up on me as a whole, i have a big mouth, try not to be rude, am non politcal, and love a good argument.

awesome

	01-05-2005 20:08									#64
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Did the person ever consider keeping their legs shut :?

Unless you were raped, you had your choice-you blew it-tough.

	01-05-2005 21:14									#65
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That's pretty heartless Vesayen; we all know how irrational and stupid women can be sometimes .

Besides, she's 13, carrying the pregnancy to term could be very physically harmful for her if she's not developed enough.

	01-05-2005 21:34									#66
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To questions:

1. Why is a minor entitled to make a decision like this? Women of that age can't even legally decide to have sex.

2. What is the "health risk" to the mother? Has this requirement completely been written out of the law?

	01-05-2005 22:29									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ned To questions: 1. Why is a minor entitled to make a decision like this? Women of that age can't even legally decide to have sex.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Would someone care to explain to me how exactly the law splits the hair of saying children under the age of 18 are incompetent to join the army, smoke, drink, drive (and have sex) in some cases yet says that it is just fine for them to consent to have invasive surgery without parental notification? You have a Constitutional right to abortion; you don't have one for the rest of those things (well except having sex, and the state can't prevent you from that either)>

At least this is according to Imran.

Dunno about the second question you asked.

	01-05-2005 22:59									#68
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Che while you are correct in a large sense of the word, As a parent I would first start by finding out why the kid ran away in the first place, if i have to taske time off work to sit withthis kid 24/7 including going to school with this child id do that to. if all this fails i turnes into time for tough love. I have some friends in the juvinelle justice system id treat them to a few nights undersupervision there and let them realize what their lives would be like if they wanted to keep up the bullshit.
This child in question has fallen thru a bunch of cracks. And I still believe that the problem in question should not be about whether she gets an abortion but how the child was or wasnt allowed out to get pregnant at the age of 13.

	01-05-2005 23:18									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy That's pretty heartless Vesayen; we all know how irrational and stupid women can be sometimes . Besides, she's 13, carrying the pregnancy to term could be very physically harmful for her if she's not developed enough.

Are you certain it could be physically harmfull?


I am well aware of the fact it is harsh, LIFE is harsh.

I'd like to take this time to say I think the republican party is satanic and the democrats have gone off the deepend since Clinton left office, before anyone accuses me of party affiliations .

Even a 13 year old child has enough intelligence to make a choice, people need to be held responsible for their actions even if they have poor results. That 13 year old may have very well thrown her life away when she decided* to have sex but that does not mean she should be allowed to throw away another. Unless she was raped or it is very likley giving birth will kill the mother, tough luck.



I don't feel sorry for the 13 year old, tough luck. I am sure many in this thread feel sympathetically sorry for her, I do not.

Claiming abortion is fine by claiming it is "pro choice" is so rediculous it never ceases to amaze me, until I remember the cumulative wave form theory@. If pro murder groups started going under the banner of "pro choice" or pro arson, or pro rape groups, you'd see a different reaction. People championing pro choice are not libretarians or constitutionalists, they usually side with other policies which restrain our freedoms, not enchance them and it is blatantly transparent. These are not people fighting for liberty and freedom from opression, they are fighting for the right to opress others and kill them.


She made her choice, now its time for her to pay the piper.


*that is right, DECIDED! Do you remember being 13? I remember being 13 and arrogantly thinking I was more intelligent and responsible then my peers(and I was) but they had enough intelligence to tie their shoes every morning. If a child has enough intelligence to figure out which pipe goes into which socket, they are old enough to be responsible for the actions of such plumbing usage.

@AKA the theory of everything, which is, people are stupid.

	01-05-2005 23:36									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Did the person ever consider keeping their legs shut :? Unless you were raped, you had your choice-you blew it-tough.

(at, not with)

	01-05-2005 23:54									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen She made her choice, now its time for her to pay the piper.

Right, cuz children should have to pay the consequences of adults.

A fetus is nothing but a lump of flesh. There is nothing wrong with abortion. If more conservatives had them the world would be a better place.

	02-05-2005 00:04									#72
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And of course it becomes a matter of politics because now I am an evil freedom eating conservative(which i'm not.)


How is it the consequence of an adult? She, decided to have sex. Banning abortion is not the "consequence of an adult" any more then banning murder is.

A fetus is more then a lump of flesh, or would you like to legalize the murder of the mentally disabled as well?

Even animals have rights and I'd bet you would say they are "no more then a lump of flesh."


I am not anti freedom, I've considered changing my party affiliation to libretarian on a monthly basis, i'm anti murdering babies.

	02-05-2005 00:09									#73
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They aren't babies 'till they're born.

	02-05-2005 01:34									#74
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If folks would put as much time into fixing the broken system instead of playing the name calling game oh geez i dunno know, something might get fixed.

	02-05-2005 01:38									#75
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The real question is not how the girl got pregnant. That's the academic question. It doesn't matter at the moment. The real question is whether the state should force a child to have a baby? Once that question is settled, then people can go on about their hand-wringing and moralizing about how horrible it is that 13-year olds are running away from hom nd having sex.

	02-05-2005 02:07									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen How is it the consequence of an adult? She, decided to have sex. Banning abortion is not the "consequence of an adult" any more then banning murder is.

Very simple:

1. "Adult" (i.e kid with family problems but physically fit to be pregnant) has sex. She gets pregnant. She is wholly unprepared to raise a child.

2. "Child" lives a crappy life because its mother sucks, and probably because there's no father around. Most probably, "child" will become a ward of the State, which is an oh-so enviable situation

The one who suffers the most is the child. It's the one who has a seriously crappy life. QED.

	02-05-2005 02:07									#77
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god help the little girl impregnated by her father who can't get an abortion.

evil conservatives

	02-05-2005 02:10									#78
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Um... Diss... you should work on that reading... it wasn't by dady.

	02-05-2005 02:11									#79
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I was talking about future cases.

The reason why kids can have abortions without telling their parents is because of possible incest. It's not some evil liberal plot to break up the american family.

	02-05-2005 02:11									#80
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I think he was making a general comment.

	02-05-2005 02:13									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident The reason why kids can have abortions without telling their parents is because of possible incest. It's not some evil liberal plot to break up the american family.

Don't forget parental violence. Parents can be a little upset finding out their daughter is knocked up.

	02-05-2005 02:21									#82
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Oh yeah while had wringing for us poor saps are going on we might stop to think why this kid after a history of running away was not put in a center that she isnt allowed out of. Instesad she is returned to foster home with little to no supervision and allowed out and about. If you want an answer to your question should the state force her to have the child, written in the law she is a ward of the state, they make her decsions for her. is this moraly correct probably not legally yes it is.

	02-05-2005 02:21									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Very simple: 1. "Adult" (i.e kid with family problems but physically fit to be pregnant) has sex. She gets pregnant. She is wholly unprepared to raise a child. 2. "Child" lives a crappy life because its mother sucks, and probably because there's no father around. Most probably, "child" will become a ward of the State, which is an oh-so enviable situation The one who suffers the most is the child. It's the one who has a seriously crappy life. QED.

And ask every child ever born, who is a result of that situation if they would of rather never lived.

	02-05-2005 02:24									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski we might stop to think why this kid after a history of running away was not put in a center that she isnt allowed out of.

Probably because DFCS is underfunded and understaffed. These people are trying to put out forest fires with a bucket brigade.

	02-05-2005 02:24									#85
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The original Roe v. Wade premised its decision on a protected right of privacy of a physician and an (adult) woman and her health. I, for the life of me, cannot understand how this right, which is the right protected, has to exclude a guardian or parent when the person involved is a minor. The law PRESUMES that a minor is incapable of making fully informed decisions at that age.

Now, what Supreme Court decision told us that minors can get abortions without the consent of their parents?

BTW, if a minor has a right to make THIS choice for herself, how can the law deny the minor the right to make OTHER choices. Despite the jingosim of the pro-choice crowd, the right protected is not a right to an abortion, but a right to privacy where the state cannot go to affect private decisions. The right to privacy is allegedly there to protect decisions on health, but why is the abortion choice the ONLY health choice allowed without a guardian's consent?

	02-05-2005 02:25									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen And ask every child ever born, who is a result of that situation if they would of rather never lived.

It's not their choice, and it never was. I'm sure the possible children who might have been born had their "mother" not let her eggs get flushed normally or were wasted by their father spilling his seed uselessly might also have liked to have been born. It doesn't mean squat.

Most of those who were born are happy to exist. None of those who weren't born regret it.

	02-05-2005 02:27									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The original Roe v. Wade premised its decision on a protected right of privacy of a physician and an (adult) woman and her health. I, for the life of me, cannot understand how this right, which is the right protected, has to exclude a guardian or parent when the person involved is a minor. The law PRESUMES that a minor is incapable of making fully informed decisions at that age. Now, what Supreme Court decision told us that minors can get abortions without the consent of their parents? BTW, if a minor has a right to make THIS choice for herself, how can the law deny the minor the right to make OTHER choices. Despite the jingosim of the pro-choice crowd, the right protected is not a right to an abortion, but a right to privacy where the state cannot go to affect private decisions. The right to privacy is allegedly there to protect decisions on health, but why is the abortion choice the ONLY health choice allowed without a guardian's consent?

people have the right to medical care of their own body without telling other people. And this includes kids.

Yes, by supporting this I also have to support teenage girls getting boob jobs (or that would make me a hypocrite).

	02-05-2005 02:28									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The right to privacy is allegedly there to protect decisions on health, but why is the abortion choice the ONLY health choice allowed without a guardian's consent?

Because having a baby is a huge decision. Not having a baby is not. Not having a baby won't change the rest of your life. Not having a baby won't mean you can't afford to go to collge and get an education. Not having a baby when you're a child won't mean that your reproductive organs are permanently underdeveloped. Not having a baby won't force you into decades of poverty.

Not having a baby is one of the best and easiest decisions to make.

Having a baby on the other hand, that's what you should need parental notification for.

	02-05-2005 02:31									#89
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Be as it may the state is this childs parents, they have to act like parents even if its wrong. As I said before the system needs tobe fixed rather then start a name calling game. Hell if Texas can allocate some more funds for the cps then so can all the other states, and if they cant why bother to have the dam agencies. Its obvious they aint doing the job.

	02-05-2005 02:34									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Be as it may the state is this childs parents,

And that's fine, but refusing to let foster kids use a judge is unfair. Every other kid has an out except those in the state system.