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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Well, Che, if the girl is going to have severe adverse health consequences, I am sure she could get an abortion. I think most parents and guardians would support that choice as well.
As to the baby, most kids born to children are raised by the child's parents or given up for adoption. The real problems begin when the girl is off on her own, having left her parent's home. |
#1, a 13-year old child does not have fully developed reproductive organs. Forcing them to go through a pregnancy more or less stops the development, from what I learned in HS sex ed, which was over 20 years ago, so I could be wrong.
#2, a child isn't physically big enough to bring a baby to term safely.
#3, there is a much higher risk of health complications for both the child and the baby.
#4, if the parents were good parents to begin with, it's unlikely that children would be having babies, thus foisting their grandchildren on to them isn't really a great option.
#5, a large percentage of teen mothers drop out of school to raise their babies.
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Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
It's not their choice, and it never was. I'm sure the possible children who might have been born had their "mother" not let her eggs get flushed normally or were wasted by their father spilling his seed uselessly might also have liked to have been born. It doesn't mean squat.
Most of those who were born are happy to exist. None of those who weren't born regret it. |
What a quaint way to justify murder.
Oh and an egg or a sperm is not a fetus, its not even a zygote, its an egg or a sperm.
Chegitz, sounds like rubbish to me..... people have been giving birth at the age of 12 for millenia.
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Vesayen
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How do you define a person?
Any defenition you will give, will disenfranchise various groups of people with health problems-lets hear your defenition.
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Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Something capable of abstract thought.
I suppose this might disqualify certain human life forms (by definition, it can't disqualify any people - plural of person) with "health problems." For example, if your cerebral cortex is liquified (see Terry Schiavo). Dunno what your point is...
And you need to look "franchise" up in the dictionary.
Incidentally, how do you define person? |
I don't know what a good defenition is, maybe the combination of a sperm an an egg with so many chromosones of certain composition. I'd define it genetically-if it is a life form with the genetic code of homo sapiens, it is human. Many humans which are protected by the U.S. constitution are not capable of abstract thought, due to health problems. I guess they arent human.
We live by rule of law, we can't leave ambiguity to fill in when we feel like it.
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Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
Ok guys before we go on to kick each other in the nuts, the main argument is wheter the state has the right to allow this child to an abortion. Please lets not regurgitate the anti and prolife crap that makes me sick. Therefore more defining what is an alive person and what is not. Nobody here knows. and to continue to argue is a waste of ur breath. |
Why not?
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Vesayen
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quote:
So anyone that kills any of my blood cells can be charged with murder?
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Your bloodcells do not reproduce, they are not alive in the classical sense as they don't fit all the qualifications for a life form.
quote:
I'm curious why you chose that definition. Can we kill intelligent non-humans with impunity? |
You can have an animal you own put to sleep at any time for any reason, providing it is not an endangered species and is not done inhumanley, so yes, yes you can. Any animal you own, you have the right within the law to kill.
quote:
Many humans which are protected by the U.S. constitution are not capable of abstract thought, due to health problems. I guess they arent human. |
quote:
Humanity isn't the same thing as personhood.
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So Mein Fuhrer, when exactly do we decide who is a person and who is not? Perhaps we can kill all the mentally deficient to save tax dollars... OH and gay people, they don't reproduce and are a drain on our society... then me next of course, since I am a Jew.
Do you see the slippery slope here :?
"Personhood" what the hell does that mean?
Any definition of who has a right to life needs to be inclusive, including an uneeded range of saftey instead of exclusive, which can take away the right to life to those who should proboably have it.
Which defenition seems better, one would could accidentally murder people, or one which can not?
Last edited by Vesayen on 02-05-2005 at 07:08
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:18
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quote:
Your bloodcells do not reproduce, they are not alive in the classical sense as they don't fit all the qualifications for a life form. |
Skin cells do reproduce. Should they be protected as persons?
quote:
So Mein Fuhrer, when exactly do we decide who is a person and who is not? |
Godwin's law, anybody?
You have. You excluded sperm and roaches from personhood. Hitler.
quote:
Perhaps we can kill all the mentally deficient to save tax dollars... OH and gay people, they don't reproduce and are a drain on our society... then me next of course, since I am a Jew.
Do you see the slippery slope here :? |
No, but I do see your poor reasoning abilities.
quote:
"Personhood" what the hell does that mean? |
Whether you have rights to life and liberty in society. You're a person if you have these rights. It's a definition.
quote:
Any definition of who has a right to life needs to be inclusive, including an uneeded range of saftey instead of exclusive, which can take away the right to life to those who should proboably have it.
Which defenition seems better, one would could accidentally murder people, or one which can not? |
Well, Mein Fuhrer, why don't we protect the life of other animals, or sperm and ovum?
By your slippery slope "argument" surely we should protect these?
quote:
You can have an animal you own put to sleep at any time for any reason, providing it is not an endangered species and is not done inhumanley, so yes, yes you can. Any animal you own, you have the right within the law to kill. |
Mass murdering NAZI!!!!
BTW, I'm not talking about the law. But what you believe. Understand the difference? If we meet a non-human form of intelligent life, does it have the right to live? Why not?
quote:
On what basis do you assume they meet your requirement? |
Advanced development of the cerebral cortex.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
My thoughts are this, what kinda precedent the state would be setting if they allow this girl to have an abortion. You now set up for many young girls in this pregnancy predictmint that are afraid to tell their parents to enter the foster system get their abortions to soon be put back into the family life leaving the state to pay for all these abortions. Call me a loony but things like this can happen, and thus leaving the state with more bills. |
You know, you always try and find some way the system can be abused to try and say why people should be denied their rights. And by always, I mean twice. Any right can be abused. I could tell state secrets to the Chinese, therefor, no one should have free speech. I could lie to the police, therefore no one should have the right against self-incrimination. You see how quickly this gets bad.
Now for the meat of your argument. It is very hard to get into foster care. It takes a lot of time for parents to be determined unworthy unless there is something obviously horrible going on. Unless the kids are being sexually abused by both parents or they're locked in cages or they have burn marks on them, the state isn't going to take them away just so they can try and get an abortion.
Right now, children who live with their parents have the right to go before a judge to ask for an abortion if they can demonstrate a good reason why their parents should not be involved. The difference in this case is, this 13 year old, as a ward of the state, does not have the right to go before a judge. If she lived with her shitbag parents, she could go to a judge. Because the state took her away from them, she can't.
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02-05-2005 02:51
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