30-04-2005 04:33									#32
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Not too much room on the high moral ground for anyone in that conflict, I'm afraid.

	30-04-2005 04:37									#33
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Yeah...

When I was growing up I did want to get into the fight but was too young, thank God. By the time I joined (the day I turned 17) it was history.

	30-04-2005 07:36									#34
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It was a terrible time. Never have I seen America so divided. After the Kent State and Jackson State Massacres, there was open talk of rebellion.

Here's remembering Eddie Foster and Morgan Tate, two of my friends who went over to Vietnam but did not come back.

	30-04-2005 09:01									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Here's remembering Eddie Foster and Morgan Tate, two of my friends who went over to Vietnam but did not come back.

...

	30-04-2005 09:05									#37
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In 31 years we get to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the victory of the glorious Iraqis against the imperialist running dogs and finally overthrowing the last remnants of colonialism,

DTA

	30-04-2005 17:37									#38
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat How come that the conquest of another country is called a revolution if it is a communist regime that does it ?

Vietnam was one country. It just had two governments, one of its own chosing (North) and one imposed upon by outsiders (South).

	30-04-2005 17:45									#39
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It sure is great that North Vietnam eventually conquered South Vietnam. I mean, otherwise South Vietnamese might be suffering from the same absolute crushing poverty as South Koreans currently are.

No wait

	30-04-2005 17:47									#40
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Well since you think it's okay to impose foreign governments on other countries for their own good, how about we invade Finland?

	30-04-2005 17:52									#41
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Good work Che, you certainly rebutted my point there by talking about an unrelated subject

Incidentally, what makes foreign imposition of a government any worse than domestic imposition of a government by a small group, ie. nearly every glorious Communist revolution of the 20th century?

	30-04-2005 18:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Good work Che, you certainly rebutted my point there by talking about an unrelated subject

It's not unrelated. South Vietnam was a foreign installed puppet government with no support from its population. That wasn't true of the North. Despite your assertion, most Communist led revolutions have been popular, supported if not by the majority, as in Vietnam, then by a significant minority.

If you think it's okay to invade South Vietnam and prop up a dictatorship that was imposed from the outside only ten years earlier because it's in the best interests of the people living there, then you have to agree it would be better for Finland if the United States invaded it and set up a new government for you.

	30-04-2005 18:28									#43
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quote: Despite your assertion, most Communist led revolutions have been popular, supported if not by the majority, as in Vietnam, then by a significant minority

Ahahahahaha significant minority. That's quite like saying 'In the coming British election, Michael Howard is popular, as he will be supported by a significant minority".

But really, how many people who supported Vietcong were in it more for the land reform than dictatorship and re-education camps? That's quite the pattern of Communist revolutions, isn't it? People will be ready for change, and to get the change, they support various socialist organizations, and then Communists wriggle their way on the top and it's totalitarianism time.

Of course, all those Russians during the Russian revolution who supported SRs and all those Cubans during the Cuban revolution who supported non-Castro socialist and liberal movements were really just wanting Lenin and Fidel all along and were just being coy about it.

quote: If you think it's okay to invade South Vietnam and prop up a dictatorship that was imposed from the outside only ten years earlier because it's in the best interests of the people living there, then you have to agree it would be better for Finland if the United States invaded it and set up a new government for you.

Well, that quite obviously wouldn't be in the Finnish interests, now would it? Finland, after all, is a democratic, relatively free nation. The situation would be rather different if Finland was in danger of being taken over by a totalitarian ideology.

And, of course, as you remember, the situation you describe bears some resemblance to the Finnish Civil War during the 1910s. And, as you remember from our previous discussions, I believe that the White victory, supported by the Germans, was obviously for the best in the long run.

	30-04-2005 18:38									#44
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che and his communist fantasies.. yeah, North Vietnamese ruling was a blessing in disguise, wasn't it?

Hey, if we are about to be overrun by stinking communist hippie bastards, and we don't want to be, and we call you to come and help us to fight against commies, PLEASE DO INVADE!!!!!!!

	30-04-2005 21:12									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So you think we should point out America's flaws on July 4th?

Well, as a historian, I do not pick days on which I want to objectively look at my own country's history, and on other days masturbate off of self-congratulatory history.

I always, everyday, try my best to objectively look at the history of our own country.

	30-04-2005 21:21									#46
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What should I watch today? Apocalypse Now? Platoon? Viet-Konga Babes 6?

I think I'll watch Platoon.

	30-04-2005 23:34									#47
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara On the American Experience the other night, they played the Fall of Saigon. It was particularly interesting. I had always believed the Neddite lies that it was was the NVA that broke the peace accords and restarted the war. In fact, it was Thieu who launched an offensive in 1973, which broke the cease fire and resulted in the resumption of hostilities, leading to the fall of Saigon less than two years later.

Could be. But the situation had to break out into hostilities because there was no permanent peace and no withdrawal by commie forces from occuppied territories. In a sense, the Paris Peace accords were a fraud and an American surrender by Kissinger and company.

	30-04-2005 23:38									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Ho was more of a nationalist, he just wanted to get the French out. When the US turned him down he went to the other side instead.

Yeah. But the first war did not justify the second. The French had long been gone from Vietnam when Ho began his war of aggression to conquer the South (liberate Saigon, in Che's parlance).

	30-04-2005 23:41									#49
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BTW, Che, do you contend that Commies have the right to invade other countries to "drive out imperialism" and to impose Communism?

	30-04-2005 23:42									#50
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Vietnam was one country. It just had two governments, one of its own chosing (North) and one imposed upon by outsiders (South).

Why of course, Che.

The same could be said today of Korea, could it not?

And, what about Red China and the ROC?

	30-04-2005 23:55									#51
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quote: BTW, Che, do you contend that Commies have the right to invade other countries to "drive out imperialism" and to impose Communism?

I don't know if Che does, but I do.

On the other hand, this sort of thing isn't likely to work. Better to foment revolutionary fervour from within.

	30-04-2005 23:57									#52
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So, if South Korea invades and conquers North Korea will we see Che dancing around and starting threads with nonsensical titles like this?

	01-05-2005 00:00									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: BTW, Che, do you contend that Commies have the right to invade other countries to "drive out imperialism" and to impose Communism? I don't know if Che does, but I do. On the other hand, this sort of thing isn't likely to work. Better to foment revolutionary fervour from within.

We know the plan, Agathon.

What is interesting is that very few credit Reagan's resisting of these commie insurgencies worldwide with the collapse of Soviet Communism. Before Reagan was elected, the march of communism did seem "inevitable."

	01-05-2005 00:02									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ned We know the plan, Agathon. What is interesting is that very few credit Reagan's resisting of these commie insurgencies worldwide with the collapse of Soviet Communism. Before Reagan was elected, the march of communism did seem "inevitable."

Because Reagan's "resistance of these commie insurgencies" more often than not involved support of equally despisable and unpopular regimes which ended up commiting far more crimes against humanity than the commie regimes they replaced.

	01-05-2005 00:09									#55
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quote: What is interesting is that very few credit Reagan's resisting of these commie insurgencies worldwide with the collapse of Soviet Communism.

What dreamworld do you live in? The collapse of the Soviet Union had bugger all to do with Reagan. It was living on borrowed time before he was elected.

The Soviet economy was poorly managed during the Brezhnev era and sustained by high oil prices. When those went it was in trouble and Gorbachev realized that reforms were necessary. Unfortunately for him he hadn't realized that dissident movements in countries like Poland were developed enough to use the aura of reform to overthrow their communist regimes. Gorbachev was simply not prepared to impose rule by force and the whole thing collapsed like a pack of cards.

You seem to forget that Reagan dumped his confrontational stance in his second term and decided that it was worth working with Gorbachev (whom he rightly saw as a reasonable and decent man trying his best). I think that Reagan had realized that it was imperative to avoid nuclear war at all costs and he did an excellent job of building up trust with Gorbachev so that when the collapse came, we weren't blown to pieces.

Despite his other crimes there's a gold star beside Reagan's name for that - and I think it is his most important achievement.

Can you imagine what would have happened had the Soviet Union started to break up without the preceding era of openness? I shudder to think.

	01-05-2005 00:16									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not unrelated. South Vietnam was a foreign installed puppet government with no support from its population. That wasn't true of the North. Despite your assertion, most Communist led revolutions have been popular, supported if not by the majority, as in Vietnam, then by a significant minority. If you think it's okay to invade South Vietnam and prop up a dictatorship that was imposed from the outside only ten years earlier because it's in the best interests of the people living there, then you have to agree it would be better for Finland if the United States invaded it and set up a new government for you.

Che, even if everything you say about the legitimacy of the Republic of Vietnam is true, what right did this give North Vietnam, with the material support of the USSR, to wage aggressive war to conquer it?

	01-05-2005 00:18									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Because Reagan's "resistance of these commie insurgencies" more often than not involved support of equally despisable and unpopular regimes which ended up commiting far more crimes against humanity than the commie regimes they replaced.

Yeah, in a way, this may be true. After all, we were once allies with Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan.

But, this does not take away from the point that Reagan was very effective at putting the whole Soviet communist system under pressure.

	01-05-2005 00:21									#58
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quote: But, this does not take away from the point that Reagan was very effective at putting the whole Soviet communist system under pressure.

He did nothing essentially different from what Truman did.

	01-05-2005 00:22									#59
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Agathon, the pressure forced Gorbachev to seek changes, including arms reduction. Reagan responded to an extent. But still, he kept the pressure on his entire administration.

	01-05-2005 00:32									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: But, this does not take away from the point that Reagan was very effective at putting the whole Soviet communist system under pressure. He did nothing essentially different from what Truman did.

True. But what he did was a restoration of Truman's policy. It had lapsed during the Nixon administration.