01-05-2005 14:20									#91
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How exactly was Reagan's talking tough responsible for declining Soviet life expectancy? Or Chernobyl?

	01-05-2005 14:46									#92
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat BS - I was certainly alive in 83-84 and people wasn't scared - quite opposite - people was optimistic.

The Doomsday Clock at 1984.

Just FYI.

	01-05-2005 16:41									#93
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Once the United States invaded Vietnam, the North Vietnamese had every right to defend the people of Vietnam from imperialist aggression. If the U.S. hadn't invaded, the Viet Cong would have disposed of the puppet government by the end of the decade. In 1962, they were almost ready to declare a provisional government, but U.S. "advisors" were able to help keep the Southern dictatorship going a little longer.

Ho used the same tactics that the commies used in Korea. He began the fight using guerillas. Later, if necessary, he would use conventional forces. This is what happened, but the US delayed the final conventional assault for more than a decade.

Now, as we all know, the reason for the 7 year window from Ho taking the North and the beginning of his aggression South was his need to install communism in the North and to build up his resources. There was a similar 6-7 year delay from Tet to the final offensive. Tet was such a devastating defeat that it took all that time to build up again.

What I will agree with is that the introduction of US forces into the South threatened success and forced Ho to use his conventional forces sooner than he had planned.

Now, most of this still does not answer the question as to why, in 1961, Ho had a right to wage aggressive war against the South for the purpose of conquest and annexation.

	01-05-2005 22:19									#94
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quote: How exactly was Reagan's talking tough responsible for declining Soviet life expectancy? Or Chernobyl?

It wasn't. This is the neoconservative theory. It's at odds with the facts since Reagan became much more conciliatory with the USSR in his second term. Wanting to deflect attention from Iran-Contra probably had something to do with it, as did the unpopularity of his previous militarism.

I don't think the right or the left really understand Reagan. That's one reason he managed to get elected. He certainly was nowhere near the extremist that Bush was.

And Bush sr was a competent President and not a vote whore. He made a few mistakes and I don't like his politics, but no-one can accuse him of being incompetent like the present bunch (whom I hear he detests).

	01-05-2005 22:36									#95
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Agathon, could the fact that the USSR "elected" Gorby in 84-5? have anything to do with the better atmosphere? Gorby's mission was appeasement of Reagan, among other things.

	01-05-2005 23:56									#96
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Ned, please do try to come back to reality.

	02-05-2005 00:15									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: BS - I was certainly alive in 83-84 and people wasn't scared - quite opposite - people was optimistic. OK. Let's change that to intelligent people who knew what was going on... Seriously, did you live in a hole? That was the time that there were umpteen million specials on the coming nuclear holocaust; the scare pic The Day After and a general worry that Reagan's militarism combined with the intractability of the post-Brezhnev Soviet leaders was going to end in a holocaust. For a couple of years it was all scaremongering all the time. These were the heydays of the anti-nuclear movement, and for good reason.

Actually I was alive during both eras, and the way people felt in 1983 was nothing compared to the panic during the Cuban Missle Crisis. I remember having daily air raid drills, and having to take papers telling the school what to do with me in the event of an attack to my parents for them to fill out. My 5th grade teacher had a nervous breakdown.

	02-05-2005 00:18									#98
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You guys may have had it worse, but that doesn't mean the first half the 80s weren't a lot scarier than the 70s in general. I didn't think we were going to live to see graduation.

	02-05-2005 00:26									#99
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You guys may have had it worse, but that doesn't mean the first half the 80s weren't a lot scarier than the 70s in general. I didn't think we were going to live to see graduation.

What were we going to go to war over? I don't think there was anything happening in the International arena that would have been likely to have triggered a nuclear war. There were numerous conflicts in minor nations, but by the 1980s it was pretty well established that neither state ws going to initiate a major conflict over a bush war going sour. Reagan's talk about MAD was nothing but a reriteration of a policy widely known for a long time. You were just too young to have heard it uttered in a different form by President Eisenhower.

	02-05-2005 00:29									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove What were we going to go to war over?

A President who said that we could win a nuclear war, joked about attacking the USSR, etc. Unlike your generation, we thought our side would start the war. Probably over something stupid.

	02-05-2005 01:35									#101
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quote: Unlike your generation, we thought our side would start the war.

An example of why your generation has been written off.

	02-05-2005 01:36									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos An example of why your generation has been written off.

	02-05-2005 01:39									#103
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ned, please do try to come back to reality.

No, in this case he's sort-of right. The Soviets were getting whipped on the rhetoric wars and they needed someone to not look so bad. Gorbachev was the obvious choice, even though his politics weren't all that appealing to the party leaders. Though I don't know if I'd say Gorbachev was picked to appease Reagan, he was picked to be able to match Reagan... but his personality and politics allowed the two to become great friends.

	02-05-2005 01:40									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos An example of why your generation has been written off.

What a witty and inciteful comment.

	02-05-2005 01:41									#105
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quote: as did the unpopularity of his previous militarism.

You did notice his winning margin in the 1984 election, right? Mondale won 1 (or 2) state, IIRC.

	02-05-2005 01:41									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, in this case he's sort-of right.

I was responding to Ned overall, not that specific post.

	02-05-2005 01:42									#107
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quote: You did notice his winning margin in the 1984 election, right? Mondale won 1 (or 2) state, IIRC.

A couple of years after that he wasn't such a popular man. These things take time.

Anyway, you weren't even born at the time.

	02-05-2005 01:43									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: as did the unpopularity of his previous militarism. You did notice his winning margin in the 1984 election, right? Mondale won 1 (or 2) state, IIRC.

A dead dog could have beaten Mondale. The man looked like he was made of plastic. I knew at the Democratic convention we Republicans were going to clobber him. Plus his talk of raising taxes, as correct as he might have been, was suicidal at a time when the population felt very economically insecure.

	02-05-2005 01:51									#109
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quote: Actually I was alive during both eras, and the way people felt in 1983 was nothing compared to the panic during the Cuban Missle Crisis. I remember having daily air raid drills, and having to take papers telling the school what to do with me in the event of an attack to my parents for them to fill out. My 5th grade teacher had a nervous breakdown.

I said this in an earlier post.

The early to mid eighties were a frightening time. Relations between the US and USSR were terrible and both sides were posturing. The anti-nuclear movement got its biggest shot in the arm since 1961 and there were huge rallies and everyone was talking about it.

Paranoia was in the air. You only have to look at the movies that were being made at the time. Nuclear holocaust, accidental launches, etc.

Gorbachev wanted to reform the Soviet system, and like (eventually) Reagan, he realized that an antagonistic stance was dangerous for everyone. Neither Reagan or Gorbachev foresaw the fall of the USSR. Almost nobody did.

The "Reagan ended the Cold War" crap is believed by a section of Americans because it suits them – it has no real foundation. A quick examination of the problems with the Soviet Union show that they went back for years.

Another case of Americans making so much noise about themselves that they can't hear the truth.

	02-05-2005 01:57									#110
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A dead dog could have beaten Mondale. The man looked like he was made of plastic. I knew at the Democratic convention we Republicans were going to clobber him. Plus his talk of raising taxes, as correct as he might have been, was suicidal at a time when the population felt very economically insecure.

He had a similar margin vs Carter. And his VP won with a similar margin against Dukakis. Yes, they were three weak Dem candidates, but the Reagan administration carried 40+ states for three straight elections. They outscored the Dems in the EC 1440 to 173.

Reagan has NEVER been unpopular.

	02-05-2005 01:59									#111
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What a witty and inciteful comment.

As opposed to your great wit and spelling

	02-05-2005 02:02									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar He had a similar margin vs Carter. And his VP won with a similar margin against Dukakis. Yes, they were three weak Dem candidates, but the Reagan administration carried 40+ states for three straight elections. They outscored the Dems in the EC 1440 to 173.

Carter was hamstrung by oil prices and the Iranians. Mondale and Dukakis were both bad candidates. Clinton won on a fluke, and then had a weak opponent. Gore was just awful, and Kerry tried to outdo him. The last time the Dems ran a popular candidate was before Bobby Kennedy was killed.

The big problem for the Dems is that never never try to stand on who they actually are, but always try to be something else, and thus let the GOP define them. If it hadn't been for Perot, we'd probably have whoever President Quayle's VP was as Prez now.

	02-05-2005 02:03									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker As opposed to your great wit and spelling

The misspelling was intentional.

	02-05-2005 02:04									#114
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Then it's doubly stupid.

	02-05-2005 02:10									#115
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Lame, maybe, but not stupid.

	02-05-2005 02:14									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar He had a similar margin vs Carter. And his VP won with a similar margin against Dukakis. Yes, they were three weak Dem candidates, but the Reagan administration carried 40+ states for three straight elections. They outscored the Dems in the EC 1440 to 173. Reagan has NEVER been unpopular.

Bingo... for all Agathon's crowing that Reagan was unpopular because of his militarism, it ain't true. If Reagan was unpopular it was during the '82-'83 recession, when the Fed was clamping down on the super high inflation from the 70s. After that Ronnie was loved and had high approval ratings throughout (with a slight dip because of Iran-Contra, but nothing that bad... there was a reason he was nicknamed the "Teflon President").

	02-05-2005 02:15									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Bingo... for all Agathon's crowing that Reagan was unpopular because of his militarism, it ain't true.

He probably meant outside the U.S.

	02-05-2005 02:16									#118
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He probably meant outside the U.S.

Perhaps, but when was the last time American Presidents cared about how they were viewed outside the US?

	02-05-2005 02:18									#119
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He probably meant outside the U.S.

Why the heck would that have anything to do with elections in the US?

	02-05-2005 02:18									#120
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quote: Perhaps, but when was the last time American Presidents cared about how they were viewed outside the US?

All the time. In fact all of you are constantly worried about it. You're like Paris Hilton.