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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Well, the government will never do so as long as it can paint Europe as anti-Russian and if the EU tolerates its members oppressing a Russian minority... |
Well, even if the issue of the Russian minority becomes solved (and I think it'll happen, considering that the EU successfully pushed for the recognition of the rights of about one half of the minority), this won't stop the depiction of the EU as an anti-Russian construct.
As long as the Russian government wants to instill a sense of external threat to its population, anything will do, whether it is an actual concern (like the Russophone minority in the Baltics) or an excuse (like our regular weenie declarations about Chechnya, or the need for visas to go to Kaliningrad).
Besides, all of the Pro-Russian things about the EU (like this poll, that indicated that 50% of the Europeans would support a Russian adhesion to the EU on principle, vs. 45% for Turkey) will be cautiously ignored by the Russian media.
OTOH, if the Russian government decides a full blown rapprochement with the EU, all of these issues will magically become secondary in the government's communication. And lo, the EU will be seen as Russia's friends against the dangerous ambitions of the US, China, India, or whatever external threat is convenient at the time.
In any case, I don't see why Russia shouldn't question its past, no matter what the Baltics do. I don't know: have the Russians made peace with their past with the Ukrainians that starved by the million during Stalin's years? to the various Central Asiatic populations that were massively displaced or killed? To the Poles for the Katyn massacre and for purposefully having let the nazis crush the revolt in Warsaw?
You may think "yet another proof that you're anti-Russian and you don't even see it  " But it's not. In the countries I live in, these questions are asked to each and every country, including our own. That's because no country has a clean past, and the memory of past horrors can be very vivid among the victims or their offspring. Are we anti-Turkish when we ask them for recognition of the Armenian genocide? Are we anti-Croatian when we ask them to hunt down one of their war criminals, who is also a war hero? Are we anti-Japanese when we wish them to get their senses and finally come clear with the horrors they wrought during WW2? Are we anti-French when we profusely apologize for toprturing Algerians?
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Saras
You have absolutely NO clue about Baltic history, do you? |
I have little clue about Baltic history, though I think to understand that the treatment of Russophone minorities (and the language laws that come along) come from:
1. A feeling, that is largely justified, that the Russians raped your countries, massacred your people, and attempted to dissolve your identity by colonization and russification.
2. An attempt at re-creating an official national identity, that has no immediate historical legacy (considering that there hadn't been independent Baltic States for a jolly long time before 1991).
Unless I miss something extremely important, I think I can generally understand where your policies come from. But even if your feelings about Russia and national identity are justified, they don't make for good policy.
Especially for Latvia (which is the most radical of the three, and the most colonised by Russians), today's societies are largely divided, as a large chunk of the population belongs to an ethnic minority.
The EU way is not to exclude the minorities, no matter the bad feelings about them. That's why the EU gives lessons to Hungary with its Gypsy minority (and Hungary has made amazing progresses on the matter). That's why we'll bother Romania to no end with their Magyar minority. That's why the EU initiated the Charter for regional languages.
And that's why the EU is the main force behind the fact that Russophones are less excluded from the Baltic societies than a decade ago.
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Saras
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
1. A feeling, that is largely justified, that the Russians raped your countries, massacred your people, and attempted to dissolve your identity by colonization and russification. |
Not really. The ones that did that on a large scale (1940-1941 and 1944-1956) are largely dead, or senile.
quote:
2. An attempt at re-creating an official national identity, that has no immediate historical legacy (considering that there hadn't been independent Baltic States for a jolly long time before 1991). |
www.wikipedia.com. You NEED to read up.
quote:
Unless I miss something extremely important, I think I can generally understand where your policies come from. But even if your feelings about Russia and national identity are justified, they don't make for good policy. |
Look, for chrissakes, we have a Russian minister of ECONOMY, born in Archangelsk. A number of MP's, plenty of 2nd and 3rd tier officials, especially on the municipal level. There ARE NO "POLICIES". What are your sources for this bullshit?
quote:
Especially for Latvia (which is the most radical of the three, and the most colonised by Russians), today's societies are largely divided, as a large chunk of the population belongs to an ethnic minority.
The EU way is not to exclude the minorities, no matter the bad feelings about them. That's why the EU gives lessons to Hungary with its Gypsy minority (and Hungary has made amazing progresses on the matter). That's why we'll bother Romania to no end with their Magyar minority. That's why the EU initiated the Charter for regional languages. |
Again, the Roma (Gypsies is a non-pc word  ) did not invade Hungary, deport a significant part of its population and replace the with Roma. Feel the difference?
quote:
And that's why the EU is the main force behind the fact that Russophones are less excluded from the Baltic societies than a decade ago. |
For clarity of future discussion - the "Baltics" are three separate and different countries, with an extremely different pre-XIX century history. By lumping them together one risks attributing traits of just one to all three. Such as the whole Russian minority issue.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Saras
There ARE NO "POLICIES". What are your sources for this bullshit? |
Things like that: http://www.aceproject.org/main/english/lf/lfy_lv.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3677383.stm
Yes, they deal with Latvia, which is the worst country by far. Last time I inquired about the issue, I saw that Estonia was less extreme, while Lithuania had a much more peaceful approach to it russophone minority.
quote:
Again, the Roma (Gypsies is a non-pc word ) did not invade Hungary, deport a significant part of its population and replace the with Roma. Feel the difference? |
Of course.
But in the EU, you don't base policies on past grudges. That's how the EU got built in the first place, when the French and German governments decided to forgive the past, despite a large hatred for Germany in the French population (and there are still real traces to this day).
Maybe that's why so many EU countries are so zealous about official apologies, and overall weeniness. Because the very reason why the EU is successful at its primary mission (keeping the peace between European countries) is because we refuse to base our policies on grudges, but on the way we want to see the world tomorrow.
quote:
For clarity of future discussion - the "Baltics" are three separate and different countries, with an extremely different pre-XIX century history. By lumping them together one risks attributing traits of just one to all three. Such as the whole Russian minority issue. |
True. I didn't intend to lump Lithuania among with the other two on the issue, because things are much more satisfying in Lithuania. And again, the most extreme case is Latvia.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
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baltic countries deserves more than an apology. They should get a billion euros every year, to pay back what has been done in their countries. You look at them now. They are quickly rising and yes, there are some hot spots already. Estonia has one of the most rising economies, it's a place to set up a business right now, the government is extremely business friendly, for foreigners too. Taxes? What taxes 
When the commie let the baltics go, they started doing better immidiately. The past echoes eternity, when the echo is not changed. Putin has taken few steps back, including history, and is going with the old recipe, which is not only worrying, but seems to be working.
I say keep your guns close to bed fellows, the rapists might be here again any day now.. and we must drive them to the sea this time so we can live peacefully and prosper. They are in our way, because they are eeevil!
Do your duty!
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Saras
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:18
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1997.
A protest is not proof of sich policies, there's plenty of protests in democratic countries about everything.
quote:
Yes, they deal with Latvia, which is the worst country by far. Last time I inquired about the issue, I saw that Estonia was less extreme, while Lithuania had a much more peaceful approach to it russophone minority. |
What approach? There IS no approach. We do not care if they're russians, lithuanians, basque or french.
quote:
But in the EU, you don't base policies on past grudges. That's how the EU got built in the first place, when the French and German governments decided to forgive the past, despite a large hatred for Germany in the French population (and there are still real traces to this day).
Maybe that's why so many EU countries are so zealous about official apologies, and overall weeniness. Because the very reason why the EU is successful at its primary mission (keeping the peace between European countries) is because we refuse to base our policies on grudges, but on the way we want to see the world tomorrow. |
You completely miss the point. The reason for this whole fuss is Russia running out of sticks to use on Baltic countries in its foreign policy. Since carrots are not really very Russian - style, they're desperate to have this nonissue discussed in EU and elsewhere. And used against us. And you guys play along.
quote:
True. I didn't intend to lump Lithuania among with the other two on the issue, because things are much more satisfying in Lithuania. And again, the most extreme case is Latvia. |
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
<...>the Baltic's treatment of their Russian minorities is one of the EU's worst disappointments. <...>
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Saras
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
baltic countries deserves more than an apology. They should get a billion euros every year, to pay back what has been done in their countries. You look at them now. They are quickly rising and yes, there are some hot spots already. Estonia has one of the most rising economies, it's a place to set up a business right now, the government is extremely business friendly, for foreigners too. Taxes? What taxes
When the commie let the baltics go, they started doing better immidiately. The past echoes eternity, when the echo is not changed. Putin has taken few steps back, including history, and is going with the old recipe, which is not only worrying, but seems to be working.
I say keep your guns close to bed fellows, the rapists might be here again any day now.. and we must drive them to the sea this time so we can live peacefully and prosper. They are in our way, because they are eeevil!
Do your duty! |
Where the hell is our nokias, metsaserlas, fortums and ruukkis? Where is our EUR 30'000+/capita GDP? 
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
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But as you know best, the attitude will never change, or at least it will take a long time to change. Some of them people still think they actually did you a favour, and you should be happy about it and not all hostile. Basically thinking they taught you to walk so you can now fly.
Which is an interesting interpretation of history, not to mention borderline offending to many. And then they call you to change your attitudes. It's pretty ironic .
The bottom line is, we don't need to do anything. If there needs to be mutual understanding and happy feelings, the baltics are not the ones who need to make the adjustment. They are pretty much doing their own thing now, and if someone is feeling lonely because you can't boss them around anymore, well that's just too bad. And that's the bottom line. If you want something, you need to make it happen instead of waiting it'll drop in front of your door. If not willing to do that, then there IS no genuine feeling where something that was done is considered a bit troubling even today.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
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it's not about human rights, what I'm talking about. I don't even know what this russians being second class citizens is all about.
I'm talking in general. The inability to admit the failures and wrongdoings in the past is only making it worse today in a way, because it's been so long, so how come it can't be recognized? Someone is clearly living in the past, still, and hoping that there never needs to be any admitting of failure, because the main feelings and main points of history relies solely on beating the fascists during the second world war. That's it. So what happened after that is seen as.. what was necessary.
That is, of course, superpower thinking. Was it necessary then? I don't know. Ask what baltic people think about it now. IN the play of superpowers, the little ones get always stomped, and no one ever asks what they think about it, because they are always 'the necessary' part. People kind of feel it's not fair, but it's necessary. Well guess what, now that the tables have turned a little bit more to equal, it's time to look back and make things better. But it sure as hell does not start from the little necessary collateral folks saying anything.
You see, this is a cornerstone for Putin. He would need to apologize, meaning he would admit there was something done that was wrong or at least troubling. Do you see him giving apologies to anyone? He pulled out our relations regaring the war as well, we just had a lecturer in the Uni of Helsinki, being angry about 'the recent' propaganda of Finland, us claiming we didn't start the war? He should listen more carefully, that's all we have said always, that's what the history books say, that's what the facts are, that's what both sides investigators agree on, that's what all the veterans agree on, in both sides, that's what the former president agreed on (Yeltsin) and apologized for etc etc, it's gone to the path of trivial already, and now he pulls it all back, and we were the ones guilty of everything, and we were fascists and we started the wars and all that. Hey you can think what you want about that era and the situation, but going that far with BS and lies is unbelievable.
You think he's going to apologize baltic countries? Hell no. And to even think, that it's the baltic countries who should go on and say they are sorry for something, to say they need to be little more humble to deserve the apology, basically making THEM to be at fault is a redicilous idea, outrageous and nothing but a damn shame.
And no, this isn't about what russian folks in baltic countries have to deal with because I don't really know about that situation anything at all.
All I'm saying is that someone wants to play omnipotent, where baltic countries would have to start being good servants again. The main play is pretty visible, where someone still considers some countries to be satellite countries, that can be used in other plays, as components and amplifiers of ones own politics. I would know, because I live in one of those countries. What can I say? Too bad. You see tears in my cheek.
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04-05-2005 02:50
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