06-05-2005 00:45									#151
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"it depends on your point of view. if you were an east german with a belief in the socialist model you'd say that west berlin is occupied/unfree. that's what i'm saying."

Interesting. Do you think many East Germans held this view?

BeBro

	06-05-2005 01:30									#152
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So now they claim they never occupied... so, the recent trend of making the history what it used to be in propaganda, if that's not worrying to you, then nothing is. I say keep your eyes open.

'but techn..' SHTU UP! they were occupied, PERIOD.

	08-05-2005 03:34									#153
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Today, Bush apologized for the Yalta agreements (comparing it to the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreements and the Munich "appeasement" pact) between the US and the USSR that split Europe in two:

quote: As we mark a victory of six days ago -- six decades ago, we are mindful of a paradox. For much of Germany, defeat led to freedom. For much of Eastern and Central Europe, victory brought the iron rule of another empire. V-E Day marked the end of fascism, but it did not end oppression. The agreement at Yalta followed in the unjust tradition of Munich and the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Once again, when powerful governments negotiated, the freedom of small nations was somehow expendable. Yet this attempt to sacrifice freedom for the sake of stability left a continent divided and unstable. The captivity of millions in Central and Eastern Europe will be remembered as one of the greatest wrongs of history.

	08-05-2005 04:15									#154
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paiktis, actually MtG was in West Berlin, I was in Bamburg and Hof, which was at the border in with East Germany.

JohnT, excellent quote, thanks for that. GWB!

	08-05-2005 04:22									#155
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Excellent words. He could have gotten around it more easily, but he took the right road, which is to face the facts that were difficult to everyone, and just say like it was. Yeah.. good words Dubya also showing support for our Baltic friends Good words, good words. Maybe those are the best words I've ever read to describe the situation, so for the one who wrote the words and for dubya pronouncing them correctly And here's one for me

	08-05-2005 04:26									#156
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Pekka

	08-05-2005 04:39									#157
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Nah, he is just repeating what the danish PM has expressed.

After all, it is comon knowledge that Bush isn't able of neither think a peronal view, neither express such one.

	08-05-2005 04:58									#158
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How low can Bush go?

	08-05-2005 05:22									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris How low can Bush go?

The whole way down to the level of what a democratic president would go ?

	08-05-2005 05:41									#160
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Nah, he is just repeating what the danish PM has expressed. After all, it is comon knowledge that Bush isn't able of neither think a peronal view, neither express such one.

The Danes weren't a party to Yalta. That's the difference in the power of the words.

Yalta was a big American mistake, which led to the oppression of Central and Eastern Europe. It's important to ackowledge that as a mistake.

	08-05-2005 06:18									#161
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The Danes weren't a party to Yalta. That's the difference in the power of the words. Yalta was a big American mistake, which led to the oppression of Central and Eastern Europe. It's important to ackowledge that as a mistake.

I am quite aware of the fact that Denmark wasn't a part of the Yalta agreement - actualy it would have been a joke if we had been a part of it.

You may think that Yalta wa a big mistake, and it'seasy to think that wa after the end of WWII, but Yalta was before.

The Yalta agreement was a result of current power, and the only way to hange that would have been a war between Soviet and the rest of the Alliance. Such a war could have been won, but after 4-6 years of war I don't think that a couple more of war was in the current leaders mind.

	08-05-2005 08:05									#162
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That doesn't change the fact though, that half a continent was left to suffer against their will under Communism - for close to half a century.

Freedom of all people isn't something you should just pursue as your goal when it feels convenient.

And I applaud President Bush for having the guts to say it like it is.

BTW, in many cases at Yalta - and in other dealings with the Russians, Churchill was the one who most clearly recognized the Soviet intentions for Eastern Europe when the war would end. Roosevelt weakened the Western negotiating position early on by revealing that in his opinion, 2 years after V-E would be the upper limit for how long the United States could keep an army standing in Europe. This statement must have pleased Stalin immensely, whereas Churchill was shocked and remarked "I do hope that would depend on the circumstances."

	08-05-2005 22:23									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Excellent words. He could have gotten around it more easily, but he took the right road, which is to face the facts that were difficult to everyone, and just say like it was. Yeah.. good words Dubya also showing support for our Baltic friends Good words, good words. Maybe those are the best words I've ever read to describe the situation, so for the one who wrote the words and for dubya pronouncing them correctly And here's one for me

Pekka, thanks, in a way. I just wish you could honestly thank Bush someday and not include in your thanks some backhanded gibe.

I remember the opponents of Reagan saying the very same kind of things about him as you just did about Bush. They called him a cowboy. They say he didn't write the speeches he gave and that he was some sort of puppet to dark forces nobody knew about but it was certainly calling all the shots and writing speeches.

But turns out that we have handwritten copies of the speeches that Reagan gave and he wrote the speeches himself. I am not going to suggest here that Bush writes his own speeches. But, certainty he tells the speechwriters what he wants to say and he has approval on the final text. So even if the exact words are not Bush's, those words express what he intends to say.

	08-05-2005 22:28									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But turns out that we have handwritten copies of the speeches that Reagan gave and he wrote the speeches himself.

No you don't. The Reagan Whitehouse openly used speachwriters.

	08-05-2005 22:28									#165
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Nah, he is just repeating what the danish PM has expressed. After all, it is comon knowledge that Bush isn't able of neither think a peronal view, neither express such one.

What is true is that Europeans are so full of it that they cannot accept what they see if what they see is clear is glaringly inconsistent with the propaganda they've been fed by the media and general, common-think of liberalism. Bush is the leader he appears to be and is far more intelligent and perceptive than any in on the left will concede because those on the left are apparently more concerned about their propaganda than about honesty.

	08-05-2005 22:29									#166
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No you don't. The Reagan Whitehouse openly used speachwriters.

Yes. But still Reagan wrote a lot of the material himself.

	08-05-2005 22:30									#167
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He made notes and suggestions, maybe. Certainly not after 1984.

	08-05-2005 22:30									#168
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I'm sure he wrote a spech once some where. Most of his speeches were written by speech writers though.

	08-05-2005 22:39									#169
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It wasn't a snap of any kind. Everyone uses speechwriters. A fact. Nothing to be ashamed about it. It's a universally accepted thing. Everyone does it. No one claims otherwise. The speech was good and Dubya delivered it. That's it.

I give credit where it's due. So I gave both speechwriters and Bush. I have given him credit before on some things, and bashed him on other things. And I continue to do that. No free meals.

	08-05-2005 22:39									#170
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The fact that they used speech writers in the White House doesn't change the validity of asserting that President Reagan was an excellent speech writer himself. Just as an example, he delivered more than 1,000 short radio commentaries during the 70's on a variety of topics, and he wrote more than 2/3 of those himself.

And those commentaries were brilliant examples of his ability to write (and deliver) clear and poignant speeches that instantly got a hold of the audience. I know, because I've listened to a number of them - and no it's not just me sticking up for Reagan. Others share the same view.

	08-05-2005 22:41									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Interesting. Do you think many East Germans held this view?

I have no way of knowing...
Then again many who were not "believers" of that system had a lot to cope with when that system collapsed. They just didn't understand for example how on earth it is possible for them to sleep on the street. Or not being looked after.
Then again they didn't have the freedom to buy a house for example. Or leave or own (generally).

	08-05-2005 22:44									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Winston he delivered more than 1,000 short radio commentaries during the 70's

He didn't have Alzheimers' in the 70s, and he did have many of the symptoms of it before his second term. It's unlikely that he did much of anything he wasn't told to do after 1983.

	08-05-2005 22:50									#173
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Viewed through your particular optics, certainly. But I've never bought those leftist claims that he was disabled during his Presidency. Have you ever watched his Titanic speech at the 1992 Republican convention? If not, you should, and then come back here and tell me you still believe his mental capabilities were severely diminished by disease 3 years prior. I believe it's still in the C-span archives.

	08-05-2005 22:56									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Viewed through your particular optics, certainly. But I've never bought those leftist claims that he was disabled during his Presidency.

Then you have to admit he was malingering when he said he couldn't remember all those meetings. Either he lied to Congress or he was suffering from Alzheimer's. He barely did anything in his second term except for public events. Since he was a good actor, it was quite easy for him to continue acting, even when he was no longer remembering what was going on around him. You might want to consider reading Weinberger's memiors.

	08-05-2005 23:09									#175
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Sure, if you can't remember certain things you're suffering from Alzheimers or lying. No other explanations exist.

And I do believe he did a great many things of importance in his 2nd term also. Working to keep European allies behind the 1979 double decision and establishing relations and applying pressure to the new Soviet leadership, those weren't unimportant things or merely public appearances. But he did slow down a bit compared to the first term, I'll give you that. But then I'd say it was only natural for him, and I certainly wouldn't take it as an undisputable indication of his health deteriorating at that point.

One thing I'm looking forward to reading is President Reagan's personal diaries from the White House years, which weren't meant for publication originally, but which will be out sometime next year. I hope they won't be too expensive.

	08-05-2005 23:16									#176
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When one reads history about the conferences that divided Europe, we see messages from historians that Roosevelt was a weak and dying man and didn't have the ability anymore to stand up to Stalin, or that Roosevelt was legitimately concerned with the Soviet Union entering into a separate peace with Nazi Germany if the Western allies took a hard line on the shape of post World War II Europe. But those explanations fail to take into account that we also asked the Soviet Union to intervene in the East and attack the Japanese in China even though at the time our top military leadership thought that Japan was on its final legs and was going to surrender sooner rather than later and wanted to keep Soviet Union out of the theater. At the same time, there were a lot of people in the US administration who actually believed that communism was a good thing and saw no problem in the Soviet Union occupying a significant portion of Europe and of China and perhaps even Japan itself. Moreover, there were Soviet agents in the administration that intended to influence US policy in exacty this direction.

But the thought that we should oppose occuppation of Europe and China by the Soviets would raise significant questions as to whether the whole war was wrong in the first place. Perhaps we were fighting on the wrong side? Perhaps we should have been fighting with Germany against the Soviet Union rather than with the Soviet Union against Germany? What was the point of the war an at all?

It is said that we were fighting fascism. But that is not the reason why the war started, as the war started over Poland and the Treaty of Versailles. But to say the war was about the liberation of Poland and the right of self-determination of peoples would not justify the occupation of Eastern Europe by the Soviet Union after the conflict ended. Thus the planners at Yalta and other conferences had to change the subject and divert attention and say that the war was about fascism and not about liberation of Poland and the right of self-determination of peoples.

But let's assume that the war ended as a fight against fascism. What is wrong with fascism? In practice it is an anti-democratic form of government that rules with barbarity rather than with any respect for human dignity and life. But, so is communism, at least the form of communism that we found in Stalinist Soviet Union. But to justify the war against Germany as a war against fascism, we would have to downplay that our ally, the Soviet Union, was equally as anti-democratic and barbaric. And we now know that we did just that: we called the Soviet Union some kind of worker's paradise and the murderous Stalin, "Uncle Joe." We ignored any evidence of massive Soviet war crimes and the rape of Berlin. That was too inconvenient and an embarrassment for the administration, who after all, were politicians.

So the way the war ended was a violation of its first principles. The war ended badly for the Western allies as it betrayed the very purpose of the war: the liberation of Eastern Europe and the self-determination of peoples. That war was not about fascism as fascism is no more inherently evil than any totalitarian form of government and we made allies with the very worst totalitarian government in the history of mankind.

Truman had been kept out that of the loop of all policymaking regarding World War II, so that when he first took over as president when Roosevelt died he was given a fate accompli regarding the state of Europe and, for that matter, China and Japan. To the extent that we have his notes, Truman was clearly uncomfortable with our use of atomic weapons against Japan as well. But he was, at that stage, still in that he clutches of Roosevelt's administration and could do nothing to stop them from carrying out their prior plans. So I don't blame Truman for allowing the Soviet Union to stay in Eastern Europe or two enter the war against Japan. That was all Roosevelt's doing.

It is good that President Bush has now apologized for Yalta and the decisions of President Roosevelt. But this should also raise serious questions as to why we fought World War II or why we allowed it to end the way we did with a betrayal of all the reasons that we were fighting it in the first place.

Last edited by Ned on 08-05-2005 at 23:43

	08-05-2005 23:39									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka It wasn't a snap of any kind. Everyone uses speechwriters. A fact. Nothing to be ashamed about it. It's a universally accepted thing. Everyone does it. No one claims otherwise. The speech was good and Dubya delivered it. That's it. I give credit where it's due. So I gave both speechwriters and Bush. I have given him credit before on some things, and bashed him on other things. And I continue to do that. No free meals.

Pekka, agreed. I have had my differences with Bush on policy. But, while I agree he can be inarticulate at times, I have no doubt that he is calling the shots and making the decisions about policy. I like what I see there -- on the international front -- a lot. Bush has been the strongest president since Reagan (and Kennedy for that matter, but Kennedy was more rhetoric that action), for liberty of the peoples of the world.

	08-05-2005 23:51									#178
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Does anybody have a link to Bush's actual speech? The headline reads as if he were talking about the Baltics. But the quoted text seems to suggest he was talking about the whole of Soviet-occuppied Europe (and for that matter, Far East -- two of which, China and Krazy Korea are still held captive by communism).

He called the Soviet Union "evil." Certainly. But this does raise a lot of questions about Roosevelt.

	08-05-2005 23:59									#179
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I agree that as Presidents go, Bush has an above average determination for advancing freedom and democracy in the world.

And for that he is to be commended. Also for mostly leaving out the window dressing part of it that we've seen all too often.

Ned, that's an interesting (and long!) post on the war and its objectives. I'd like to comment on some of your points, but it's getting too late tonight for it. Just so you didn't think the post had gone invisible to everybody.

	09-05-2005 00:03									#180
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I'd keep an eye on c-span.org for the speech in the days to come. It's bound to go up there sometime.