05-05-2005 17:18									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant Tony Blair went to war with Iraq for the same reason as Kosovo, Sierra Leone and Afghanistan - he felt it was the right thing to do. Whether you agree with him or not, its certainly untrue to say that he went to war just because america wanted to. He argued with Clinton, trying to persuade him to step in with Kosovo - hardly a lapdog attitude. And i dont see why the war in iraq negates all the good that labour have done for the least well off.

The problem about all this is that I(and i guess quite a few other people) just dont believe all this "I did it because i beleive it was right" line Tony gives us.

We get more proof eveyday that the way things were conducted over this whole affair were very misleading at least and a threat to true democracy and our standing in the world at the worst.

I can't forgive a man who is responsible for those mistakes. In fact in some ways i believe Tony Blair is a traitor to our country and what it should stand for in the world.

And yes its good sadam has gone, but its not enough by itself for the global cost and frankly disturbing precedent this action has born imho.

But its just my personal opinion i'm expressing, and the reason i couldn't vote for Labour again this time.
If Tony had given up the reins to Brown(or someone else) then i would most likely have voted for Labour again this time(i've voted for them twice previously).

But he's gone 'power crazy' like maggie did, reason enough to not vote for him

But i do agree that Charles does indeed have that drunken brawl thing going - and to cap it all off he's a ginger scot, about as dangerous a mix as you can get(for brawling purposes)

	05-05-2005 17:26									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin What type of smuck thinks Tony Blair is a neo-con?

The same smuck who thinks that 'Neo-con' and 'New-lab' have a freaky pattern to them

And the same smuck who noticed a distinct change in his elected prime minister after he went 'visiting' with G.Bush.

I think at camp david, Tony was persuaded to see things Bushes(neo-con) way. Now what kind of persuasion was used time will most likely tell, but i doubt it was of the noble honest type

	05-05-2005 17:35									#33
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I really dont see this thing about Blair being pursuaded by Bush to go to war.

He's ALWAYS been an international interventionist - even when Clinton was in power. As i said before - HE was the one pushing the Americans for action in Kosovo.

He has never been the sort of leader that needed to be convinced into using the military to stop oppression. Thats why i cant understand the lap dog thing. Im CERTAIN that he was, probably for very different reasons to Bush, always in favour of taking out Saddam.

	05-05-2005 17:43									#34
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The main issue is that he did not use the moral reasons for action in Iraq, but went with the (later found to be exaggarated and spin doctored to hell) WMD reason. TBH if you're going to be doing it for the "ooh he's big bad dictator who oppresses his people" reason, then be consistent and at least slap embargos/sanctions on ones like Saudi, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Myanmar etc etc.

	05-05-2005 17:44									#35
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So Blair always had neo-con sympathies? So that makes everything fine then - excellent, i feel better all ready

	05-05-2005 17:45									#36
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We had slapped sanctions on him for years and they hadnt done any good - just hurt the wrong people

	05-05-2005 17:49									#37
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Probably the type of schmuck who believe in Progressive taxation based on income, state ownership of essential utilities and services, Universal free education and in silly ideas like having Police Officers rather than CSOs. And perhaps even a party that would have a second elected house to balance the Commons rather than an appointee chamber?

I want a real labour party ZE - one that represents the working class. These pseudo Tories that Tony leads spend far too much time pandering to the middle classes. Sod the middle classes - they are not the foundation of this country - gain a majority this time then hammer the ingrates with taxation.

Wishful thinking - it will take a brave party to abandon what is called the centre right these days.

	05-05-2005 17:55									#38
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Zulu, i'm aware of all those arguements. I'm also aware of the other options that could have been used to go the UN route and get a true international ruleing.

But Bush(and maybe Blair?) had already decided(it is becoming quite clear)when the war would happen, and needed the right window of opportunity for military action, which was the whole real reason for war(as that leaked memo from the pentagon proved - it was about oil).

Disgusting behaviour all round i think, and from two countries that should be using their positions in a much more positive way to effect real good change in the world.

And as lightblue mentioned, consistancy is really important in the fight for real justice in the world.
Taking peoples lives for the sake of you and your friends all ready huge bank balances, is not what i call decent behaviour.

Last edited by child of Thor on 05-05-2005 at 18:02

	05-05-2005 17:57									#39
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I couldn't give a monkey's about Iraq. The economy's looking good, so Labour will do for me. The one potential wrecker is pensions.

Prediction? By 2009, Gordon Brown will be PM, and Ed Balls Chancellor of the Exchequer. That's an impressive double act, and I think they'd probably win again.

	05-05-2005 18:04									#40
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I just voted - Socialist Labour.

So they're hardly going to make it into government but thats not the point...unitl we have proportional representation all we can vote for is a local mp, and I'm so glad I can actually vote for someone I semi-agree with this year.

Labour are clearly going to win the general election so I stopped caring about that long ago - lost cause. The winner of the seat in my constituency should be interesting though, its certainly not a forgone conclusion.

	05-05-2005 18:08									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Probably the type of schmuck who believe in Progressive taxation based on income

This is what tax credits do. Give tax back to those at the bottom.

quote: state ownership of essential utilities and services,

If you want to renationalise coal, steel, water and gas and things like that I'll have to disagree with you. The world doesnt work like that anymore and its just a waste of money. Far too many arguments to go into here.

quote: Universal free education

I assume you're talking mainly about tuition fees. The tuition fees policy invests much needed money for the growing number of university students (surely a progressive ideal) without burdening students with up-front fees and only makes them pay when they're earning (and therefore not poor anymore). Also poorer students get grants and dont have to pay anything back.

Is your talking about private money in education...so what? Blair visited a school that, in 1997 had only a 7% GCSE pass rate. Now its 25% thanks to private investment...surely a good thing?

quote: and in silly ideas like having Police Officers rather than CSOs.

Why only have one type of policeman? We have different types of doctors for different things.

quote: And perhaps even a party that would have a second elected house to balance the Commons rather than an appointee chamber?

Fair point but i think there's going to be moves on this (and a free vote) after the election

quote: I want a real labour party ZE - one that represents the working class. These pseudo Tories that Tony leads spend far too much time pandering to the middle classes. Sod the middle classes - they are not the foundation of this country - gain a majority this time then hammer the ingrates with taxation.

If the Labour party only won working class votes (even if they won every Working class vote) they would permenantly be in opposition. Plus, the middle class contribute a lot to the country and to needlessly malign them shows a lack of compassion for hard worksing people who are just trying to get by.

Yes there are a lot of horrible selfish middle class people who dont care about the working class. But there are plenty of working class people who go out and vote BNP. They're all worthy of compassion and help. The government should be there for EVERYONE not just single sections of society - otherwise we're no better than the tories.

quote: Wishful thinking - it will take a brave party to abandon what is called the centre right these days.

Labour is on the centre-left

	05-05-2005 18:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor So Blair always had neo-con sympathies? So that makes everything fine then - excellent, i feel better all ready

Only if you think Kosovo and Sierra Leone were evil neo-con plots

	05-05-2005 19:00									#43
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue Problem with a lot of students is that they're registered in their home seats, not Cambridge Central. Even then, the vote would probably be split Tory/Lib Dem anyway, it's not like say Manchester Univ where you could guarantee a 90% Labour vote.

Every undergrad at least gets registered to vote in Cambridge. They can apply for a postal vote as well, but if they don't use it, they can vote in Cambridge.

quote: I assume you're talking mainly about tuition fees. The tuition fees policy invests much needed money for the growing number of university students (surely a progressive ideal) without burdening students with up-front fees and only makes them pay when they're earning (and therefore not poor anymore).

No, a growing number of university students is a stupid ideal. It devalues degrees, it practically forces people to go to university to get any sort of decent job, and it means that all the practical trades have massive trouble getting skilled workers. Plus, tuition fees don't even come close to covering the university's expenses for the student, so they still can't afford to keep the increased numbers anyway.

	05-05-2005 19:20									#44
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Nice to see that some schmucks still haven't seen through the third way.

The UK needs PR.

	05-05-2005 20:20									#45
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This sums my feelings up.

Attachment: vote.jpg
This has been downloaded 85 time(s).

	05-05-2005 20:36									#46
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Possibly – although PR tends to lead to endless coalition which is not an attractive prospect

ZE and I simply won’t ever see eye to eye. Rather than enter an extended debate on every point I’ll stick to a few of them.

quote: If the Labour party only won working class votes (even if they won every Working class vote) they would permanently be in opposition. Plus, the middle class contribute a lot to the country and to needlessly malign them shows a lack of compassion for hard working people who are just trying to get by.

Well the first part is not true – if the entire ‘working class’ turned out (it never does btw) Labour would win by a landslide every time. If you notice what Blair has been saying it has largely been designed to get the traditionally apathetic Labour supporters to turn out.

But the I think the problem is we have different definitions of ‘middle class’ looking at what you subsequently say. Middle class doesn’t even start for me until you get to affluent Professional careers. It seem to start lower for you? Many are hard working and very well paid for it – but I don’t lack compassion for them, I simply want them to return proportionally more of what they earn to society than they do now.

quote: The government should be there for EVERYONE not just single sections of society - otherwise we're no better than the tories.

Negative on that for me – the Labour party is for the working man. It is the counter and the balance to the Tories. To be the everyman party just leaves us with the wishy washy mob we have now. Low taxes for all but we are left really – we just won’t talk about it too much.

quote: Labour is on the centre-left

Do you truly believe that? If it is true the axis (null point) has moved hugely to the right IMO.

I agree entirely with Immortal Wombat on University by the way – far too many school leavers now go and it has turned Universities into degree factories not centres of learning. Employers have stopped trusting degree classifications - how can this be good?

Private money in schools is okay – but the back end deals securing it need examination I think.

	05-05-2005 20:40									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Verres I just voted - Socialist Labour.

Comrade!

Can I interest you in membership in the Communist Party of Apolyton?

	05-05-2005 20:41									#48
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Guess what I found in my postbox yesterday.

I couldn't believe it: despite being a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, I was entitled to vote in the British general election.

After asking around some more, I was told that any citizen of the Commonwealth (and the RoI) living in the UK are entitled to vote in the general election. Some sort of weird colonial hangover - I guess you guys still can't get over the fact we've been an independent nation since 1922.

Talk about liberal voting rights! I'm now in the weird situation where I'll have voted in a British general election before I've voted in the Irish one.

	05-05-2005 20:42									#49
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Ireland's part of the Commonwealth?

	05-05-2005 20:44									#50
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Here's hoping that ass Bliar goes soon after the election. He's a ****ing liability for Britain.

	05-05-2005 20:46									#51
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Certainly not! We left in 1949, which is my reason for including in brackets. One wonders if they have yet to accept the reality of the situation.

	05-05-2005 20:49									#52
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Comrade! Can I interest you in membership in the Communist Party of Apolyton?

Communist Party of Apolyton always sounded a bit of a contradiction to me

Living in the uk I always used to keep my commie sympathies to myself, but decided recently the only way to be true to my cause was to come out regarding my political beliefs. Converting people is harder than I anticipated but I was never one to be easily disheartened.

	05-05-2005 20:56									#53
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When will we see the results?

quote: Voted at half eight this morning for Labour.

quote: Tony Blair went to war with Iraq for the same reason as Kosovo, Sierra Leone and Afghanistan - he felt it was the right thing to do.

HA HA HA HA HA

sucker

	05-05-2005 20:58									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Verres Communist Party of Apolyton always sounded a bit of a contradiction to me

	05-05-2005 21:37									#55
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just voted lib dem myself. i live in a safe labour seat, but with the student anti-war (blah etc.) votes going to the lib dems they might be able to push them close.

here's hoping that labour is (for once) telling the truth when they say that a vote for the lib dems is a vote for the tories.

	05-05-2005 21:39									#56
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Think the first seat might start declaring around midnight BST, the winner should be known by 4am or so, all the results in by late afternoon tomorrow I guess.

	05-05-2005 21:40									#57
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue The main issue is that he did not use the moral reasons for action in Iraq, but went with the (later found to be exaggarated and spin doctored to hell) WMD reason. TBH if you're going to be doing it for the "ooh he's big bad dictator who oppresses his people" reason, then be consistent and at least slap embargos/sanctions on ones like Saudi, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Myanmar etc etc.

There are already economic sanctions on Zimbabwe and Myanmar.

	05-05-2005 21:41									#58
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blair said on sun that he can make love 5 times a night. of course the english will vote for him

(that was a comment on the radio btw)

	05-05-2005 21:43									#59
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I know Laz. Still inconsistent though.

	05-05-2005 21:45									#60
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who are the basic contenters in the UK?
blair who's labour
that keneddy for liberals
and someone for conservatives?