11-05-2005 05:51									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia 250 pages from an insider who participated in these events.

Nancy or Margaret?

	11-05-2005 05:56									#32
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Actually, Lawrence, Carter, to his credit, began the support of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan.

	11-05-2005 05:56									#33
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Reagan is bashed for all sorts of things, but I still consider him one of my faves.

	11-05-2005 05:57									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia so he was democratically elected. as for the rumours that it was noriega who killed him, John Perkins, an inside man who worked for Chas T MAIN in the 70s and 80s, and who knew how things worked in those times between US international investors, the CIA, and the pentagon, alleges in his book that it was the CIA would had both presidents killed off. he would know more then anyone.

Ah yes "democratically elected". Like Castro and other dictatorial strongmen are, right? Royo was a figurehead President who was a follower of Torrijos. Torrijos, however, stayed head of the National Guard, which held the power in the country. Torrijos was also responsible for numerous human rights violations, so he wasn't some good guy as you are trying to portray him.

And I'd trust Noriega's associate over some guy who was not involved saying "look at me!"

	11-05-2005 05:58									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka OK OK.. so south american part of his presidency is at least troublesome. Next?

The Latin American part of his policy is why I went from being a Reagan supporting Republican to a communist.

	11-05-2005 06:01									#36
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FDR's Eastern Europe policy is why I hate cripples.

	11-05-2005 06:02									#37
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Did anyone mention that Reagan did not buy the eco-freaks agenda?

Did anyone mention that he ended price controls on oil, whereupon oil supplies, which had been scarce, suddenly gushed forth, lowering prices.

Did anyone mention getting inflation under control?

Did anyone mention the sustained boom launched by Reagan. The stock market took off from the 700's, where it had remained for two decades, and didn't stop until it reached 10,000.

Did anyone mention reason for the sustained boom were his tax cuts?

He also stood his ground against union extremism. When air controllers went on strike in violation of the law, he replaced them.

But his greatest crime was to put the Pershing missile into Europe, as requested by NATO to counter the USSR's deployment of theater weapons, but defied by massive protests by European commies who warned of nuclear war, but whose real intention was to weaken Europe an detach it from America.

	11-05-2005 06:03									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ah yes "democratically elected". Like Castro and other dictatorial strongmen are, right? Royo was a figurehead President who was a follower of Torrijos. Torrijos, however, stayed head of the National Guard, which held the power in the country. Torrijos was also responsible for numerous human rights violations, so he wasn't some good guy as you are trying to portray him.

Imran is correct, Torfijos was a strongman. Nor do I believe that Maurice Bishop was elected in Grenada, but regardless of whether or not he was, he was ousted and murdered by a coup from the pro-Soviet elements in the New Jewel movement, so what followed Bishop cannot be considered a democracy.

Nonetheless, Reagan's presidency was a nightmare for the people of Latin America. It was one long decade of torture and brutality and mass murder.

	11-05-2005 06:07									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Imran is correct, Torfijos was a strongman. Nor do I believe that Maurice Bishop was elected in Grenada, but regardless of whether or not he was, he was ousted and murdered by a coup from the pro-Soviet elements in the New Jewel movement, so what followed Bishop cannot be considered a democracy. Nonetheless, Reagan's presidency was a nightmare for the people of Latin America. It was one long decade of torture and brutality and mass murder.

To be clear... I don't think that the US was a saint to Latin America. Far from it.. though in the case of Panama, it wasn't overthrowing a democracy with a pro US dictator. This wasn't Chile.

	11-05-2005 06:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Did anyone mention that Reagan did not buy the eco-freaks agenda?

And we're worse today for it.

quote: Did anyone mention that he ended price controls on oil, whereupon oil supplies, which had been scarce, suddenly gushed forth, lowering prices.

Oil supplies and prices were countroled by OPEC and through them by the Saudis. Reagan had nothing to do with oil prices coming down.

quote: Did anyone mention getting inflation under control?

He did do that, at great cost to the American income.

quote: Did anyone mention the sustained boom launched by Reagan.

What boom, sustained or not?

quote: The stock market took off from the 700's, where it had remained for two decades, and didn't stop until it reached 10,000.

For all the good it's done the average American.

quote: Did anyone mention reason for the sustained boom were his tax cuts?

If they had they'd be lying. The economy didn't recover until Reagan and the Congressional Democrats raised taxes.

quote: He also stood his ground against union extremism. When air controllers went on strike in violation of the law, he replaced them.

The Fed's refused to follow the contract, leaving the air traffic controllers no alternative. If they can't strike, they're slaves. The end result was the collapse of unionism in the U.S. It still has not recovered, and neither has the average income. American families now need two wage earners in order to make more money than their father did.

	11-05-2005 06:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui To be clear... I don't think that the US was a saint to Latin America. Far from it.. though in the case of Panama, it wasn't overthrowing a democracy with a pro US dictator. This wasn't Chile.

True dat. They overthrew one tepidly pro-U.S. but rhetorically nationalistic dictator with a massively pro-U.S., corrupt, drug-money-laudering banker. But that was Bush senior, not Reagan, so why are we even discussing it?

	11-05-2005 08:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara tried to start a nuclear war

The event where we moved pershings into Europe to counter soviet medium range weapons?

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia -slap tariffs on Korea and Bangladesh over textiles, even though he was a free trader

dont forget about the electronics,semi-conductors,motorcycles, and automotive tariffs.

	11-05-2005 08:19									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka So far, I don't see anything evil in here. So what gives? -

For starters:

1) was callously neglectful in confronting the early AIDS crisis

2) supported cruel, inhumane dictatorships in Latin American countries





Those are the two most promiment ones that immediately come to mind.

	11-05-2005 08:20									#44
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Would you get off your AIDS soapbox?

	11-05-2005 08:24									#45
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun 1) was callously neglectful in confronting the early AIDS crisis Those are the two most promiment ones that immediately come to mind.

You are absolutely right, he should have instituted a quaruntine, that would have saved a lot of lives.

	11-05-2005 08:25									#46
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As long as there are still people who STILL don't get it, it bears repeating when someone asks what were some negative consequences of Reagan's presidency.

	11-05-2005 08:33									#47
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Reagan did alot of good thing, his hard-line foreign policy was very important for cracking the communists. Particularly his financing of the Afghani rebels against the Soviets helped to bankrupt the USSR.

There were alot of problems with him though, such as his outrageous deficits.

	11-05-2005 08:43									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Particularly his financing of the Afghani rebels against the Soviets helped to bankrupt the USSR.

And trained and created the movement with which we are at war today, radical Islam. The Soviets never blew our **** up.

	11-05-2005 08:46									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And trained and created the movement with which we are at war today, radical Islam. The Soviets never blew our **** up.

That was due to later mismanagement of the Afghani conflict. After getting the Soviets out we basically ignored the Afghanis and didn't do anything about Pakistan's support for the most militant Islamic warlords. With our neglect of Afghanistan, there was ripe ground for the Taliban to come in.

	11-05-2005 08:48									#50
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As far as allying ourselves with Dictatorships, the Soviets also allied itself with a number of dictatorships as well. If we had decided to be morally pure and refuse to ally with anyone who isn't a democracy, those dictatorship would have naturally looked to the Soviets for support, and it would have just increased the Soviet Sphere of influence and made the Soviets more powerful.

	11-05-2005 08:49									#51
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Would mismanagement include United States training Osama Bin Laden?

	11-05-2005 08:52									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi That was due to later mismanagement of the Afghani conflict.

Not just that. In countr after counter across the Islamic world, both the United States and countries like Israel, actively promoted Islamic "fascists" as a counter to radical nationalists and socialists. Hamas and Islamic Jihad were actually funded by the State of Israel in the 1970s ( I don't know when that sponsorship ended). We kept the Ayatollah on our payroll and helped him spread his message, so that when the Iranian revolution occured, he had a ready base in Iran and was able to hijack the revolution. We jumped outta the frying pan into the fire.

	11-05-2005 08:52									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Would mismanagement include United States training Osama Bin Laden?

We didn't train him specifically, but we did train many of his followers and co-thinkers.

	11-05-2005 08:53									#54
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"Hamas and Islamic Jihad were actually funded by the State of Israel in the 1970s ( I don't know when that sponsorship ended). We kept the Ayatollah on our payroll and helped him spread his message, so that when the Iranian revolution occured, he had a ready base in Iran and was able to hijack the revolution."

Source?

	11-05-2005 08:54									#55
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I thought I recalled learning that there ties between American intelligence agents and Osama Bin Laden.




I guess I was mistakened.

	11-05-2005 08:56									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "Hamas and Islamic Jihad were actually funded by the State of Israel in the 1970s ( I don't know when that sponsorship ended). We kept the Ayatollah on our payroll and helped him spread his message, so that when the Iranian revolution occured, he had a ready base in Iran and was able to hijack the revolution." Source?

Dude, even the Israelis don't deny this. They promoted them as a way of trying to break the PLO's politcal power in the OTs.

quote: The political/charitable arm of Hamas was officially registered and recognized within Israel at this time: indeed Israel supported and encouraged Hamas' early growth in an effort to undermine the secular Fatah movement of Yasser Arafat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

	11-05-2005 08:58									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I thought I recalled learning that there ties between American intelligence agents and Osama Bin Laden.

Bin Laden helped organize funds and supplies for the mujahadeen, whom we were also funding and supplying and training. It's an easy mistake to make. The CIA likely was friendly with him, since he was giving their proxies aid.

quote: By 1984 he had established an organization named Maktab al-Khadamat (MAK) (Office of Order in English), which funneled money, arms and Muslim fighters from around the world into the Afghan war. MAK was supported by the governments of Pakistan, the United States[3] (http://www.msnbc.com/news/190144.asp?cp1=1#BODY) and Saudi Arabia. The three countries channelled their supplies through Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_laden

	11-05-2005 09:00									#58
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The CIA likely was friendly with him, since he was giving their proxies aid.

ah ha

	11-05-2005 09:07									#59
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The Wikipedia article has it's neutrality disputed, and from the talk page:

quote: There appear to be irregularities, can somebody clear them up? In the intro it states that it was founded in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood, but later it states under history that it was funded in the 1970's and 1980's by Saudi Arabia and Syria.--Omar 11:37, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC) and this "Many experts agree that while Israel never supported Hamas directly"...UPI floated a story that "beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years"[1] (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID...02-051845-8272r)...but others contend this is one of those Fantasias for Wisner's Wurlitzer.[2] (http://emperor.vwh.net/letters/cia.htm) Maybe elaboration is needed there... Kwantus 17:59, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC)

If that is correct, Israel certainly made a mistake in funding Hamas.

	11-05-2005 09:16									#60
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Israel also put Arafat in charge of Palestine, btw.