12-05-2005 18:43									#121
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The really sad legacy of the Reagan regime is that it established, as a formula for electoral success, the idea that the President could just be an empty-headed pitchman for the ideas and policies of powerful interests who themselves were in no way accountable to the electorate. This had happened before -- Grant and Harding both come to mind -- but the abject failures of those presidencies always dragged us back to substance. The ongoing, outrageous celebration of Reagan's empty-suit presidency, however, means that this model of Ronald McPresident, Ideological Mascot is here to stay -- as the current administration is ably demonstrating.

	12-05-2005 20:30									#122
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What Rufus said.

	12-05-2005 20:31									#123
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@ molly bloom's quotes: The first and last ones are great, even you have to admit that!

The one about the nuclear waste I think has an obvious air of hyperbole to it, it isn't meant to be taken literally, just that the quantities of waste and pollution generated are miniscule compared to other non-renewable energy sources. And also that it isn't of much concern to him in whatever context the statement was made.

The ones about the Civil Rights act do seem a bit confusing, to say the least.

	12-05-2005 20:38									#124
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BTW, I happen to recall the (near) exact context and wording of the last one, it isn't about his qualifications for Governor as you implied:

The question came from a reporter following Reagan's 1966 election for the office,

-Mr. Reagan, what kind of a Governor will you be?

-I don't know, I've never played a Governor before.

	12-05-2005 20:47									#125
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quote: " I favor the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and it must be enforced at the point of a bayonet if necessary." San Francisco Chronicle, 20th October, 1965 or did he mean: " I would have voted AGAINST the Civil Rights Act of 1964." L. A. Times, 17th June 1966

I heard an interesting thing the other day: Reagan opened his general election campaign in '80 at Neshoba County, MS where three civil rights workers were killed during the Freedom Summer for registering blacks to vote. He didn't say anything about said (infamous) killings, but instead invoked "states' rights."

	12-05-2005 21:00									#126
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As for Stinger missiles - they were not state of the art at that time. There are many versions. A new one was being introduced at that time and they got the ones that were being replaced. We also knew that they were buyring many of them for use later. However, we also knew that they had a relatively short expriation date and that after that time, they would be unguided missiles at best.

	12-05-2005 23:25									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly The really sad legacy of the Reagan regime is that it established, as a formula for electoral success, the idea that the President could just be an empty-headed pitchman for the ideas and policies of powerful interests who themselves were in no way accountable to the electorate. This had happened before -- Grant and Harding both come to mind -- but the abject failures of those presidencies always dragged us back to substance. The ongoing, outrageous celebration of Reagan's empty-suit presidency, however, means that this model of Ronald McPresident, Ideological Mascot is here to stay -- as the current administration is ably demonstrating.

And the failure of the left is simply seeing Reagan's Presidency as an empty-headed pitchman at the behest of powerful interests. That sort of thinking (and the fallacy of it) got the Dems in trouble in '84 and '88 (when they ran against the legacy of Reagan). The public turned from that falsehood long, long ago.

	12-05-2005 23:28									#128
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quote: The weapons will last for 5 years when stored in good conditions, he had ample opportunity to use them.

yeah, do you know of any state of the art facilities in afghanistan where they could store 700 missiles in factory condition?

quote: No one gave them chemical or biological weapons, many people had a large helping hand, such as the 500 ton precursor ingredient deal Belgium worked out with Saddam, but that was Iraqi expertise that made the weapons.

sorry cant help you if you cant read the link and realize that we gave him anthrax, mustard gas, chemical and biological weapons, and supplied him with the steel necessary to make a delivery system

	12-05-2005 23:32									#129
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We didn't give Saddam any of the chemical or biological weapons. He got the stock from Europeans when he told them Iraqi universities were going to use them for medical and scientific purposes. Some missile parts we might have sold him but basics for making NBC weapons we didn't.

	12-05-2005 23:35									#130
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i beg to differ

http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/time.html

	13-05-2005 00:56									#131
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We could not have given him biological weapons since we destroyed our entire stock of such weapons in 1975. The article is misleading, and you are buying it for some reason.

And Dry/room temperature ain't hard to get to as far as storage is concerned.

	13-05-2005 01:10									#132
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You don't have to sell weapons to sell someone the stuff to make weapons. If I sell someone botulism, I'm not selling them a bomb, but they could use it to make a bomb.

	13-05-2005 01:59									#133
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quote: And Dry/room temperature ain't hard to get to as far as storage is concerned.

in afghanistan???????

	13-05-2005 03:37									#134
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You don't have to sell weapons to sell someone the stuff to make weapons. If I sell someone botulism, I'm not selling them a bomb, but they could use it to make a bomb.

I stated as much that they were sold petri dishes of research materials. But that takes serious effort to turn those dishes into weapons.

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia in afghanistan???????

for an extremely wealthy Arab sure.

	13-05-2005 03:57									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And the failure of the left is simply seeing Reagan's Presidency as an empty-headed pitchman at the behest of powerful interests. That sort of thinking (and the fallacy of it) got the Dems in trouble in '84 and '88 (when they ran against the legacy of Reagan). The public turned from that falsehood long, long ago.

No, the failure of the left is to imagine that all you have to do is offer substance and people will flock to you; this is the same reason that the left is continually surprised that no one listens to NPR or watches PBS.

Reagan was an empty suit, and he was the frontman for powerful interests whose complexities he couldn't be bothered to understand -- and probably couldn't understand, even if he could be bothered. That he had popular support doesn't reflect well on him but rather poorly on the people.

Now, if you want to say that that attitude about "the people" is what's wrong with leftists, including myself, I'd be inclined to agree.

	13-05-2005 04:03									#136
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quote: Reagan was an empty suit, and he was the frontman for powerful interests whose complexities he couldn't be bothered to understand -- and probably couldn't understand, even if he could be bothered.

But in fact he wasn't and he wasn't. He had his own ideas and pressed them on his administration. If it was up to the 'interests' surrounded him in the WH, we'd have a national ID card by now, but Reagan was opposed. There were plenty of examples where Reagan went against his cabinet because of his own beliefs.

Reagan's percieved lack of intelligence has also been reevaluated with his letters being revealed to the public, which historians say indicate he was far more intelligent than the press gave him credit for.

Perhaps as a result of this, they'll put to bed the old leftist lie that Reagan was just an empty suit for powerful interests, which the left loves to want to think, as untrue as it is.

	13-05-2005 04:05									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly No, the failure of the left is to imagine that all you have to do is offer substance and people will flock to you; ....

Wonder a bit if you have seen what really leftist parties present as substance - here the left present many thing, but to claim that is has any kind of substance really needs a lot of dreaming and fantasy.

	13-05-2005 04:20									#138
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quote: for an extremely wealthy Arab sure.

yeah? and have you heard of any reports of state of the art dry rooms for stinger missile storage out of afghanistan lately? or at all?

	13-05-2005 04:58									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Reagan was an empty suit, and he was the frontman for powerful interests whose complexities he couldn't be bothered to understand -- and probably couldn't understand, even if he could be bothered. But in fact he wasn't and he wasn't. He had his own ideas and pressed them on his administration. If it was up to the 'interests' surrounded him in the WH, we'd have a national ID card by now, but Reagan was opposed. There were plenty of examples where Reagan went against his cabinet because of his own beliefs. Reagan's percieved lack of intelligence has also been reevaluated with his letters being revealed to the public, which historians say indicate he was far more intelligent than the press gave him credit for. Perhaps as a result of this, they'll put to bed the old leftist lie that Reagan was just an empty suit for powerful interests, which the left loves to want to think, as untrue as it is.

Imran leave him to his fallacies. One dimensional charactures are all the left really has left. Shame they continue to think so little of the John Q. Public that they resort to putting out same ole cannards.

	13-05-2005 06:12									#140
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He did freeze my pay for 2 years, and kept Carter pay caps in place all 8 years. I never did vote for him.

	13-05-2005 20:10									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia yeah? and have you heard of any reports of state of the art dry rooms for stinger missile storage out of afghanistan lately? or at all?

with that new fangled water proof plastic and fans even?

Osama got such great training from us that he didn't know to remove the weapons from afghanistan were that a problem for him, or be able to keep them in an area that was in good condition for them?

	13-05-2005 20:31									#142
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Well, since were threadjacking this towards Afganistan... there are two things about subjects I really don't know much about and therefore would like to get some clarifications:

1) I thought "mujahediin" or however it is spelled simply meant and means "riding men" in Arabic and thus doesn't refer to any specific faction or ideology, but rather is a generic term for crazy jihadists?

2) I remember reading from somewhere that Unca Usama et alii actually sold most of the AA-missiles USA gave 'em to the highest bidder in black market and made lot's of $$$ that way after SU withdrew?

	13-05-2005 21:09									#143
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The US offered a buyback program, 100k per stinger, but didn't get very many back.

	13-05-2005 21:30									#144
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As I said, those stingers quickly became unguided missiles.

	13-05-2005 23:44									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia i beg to differ http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/time.html

Because "inmotion magazine" is such a great authority? Thanks but I'll go with CNN on this one.

	13-05-2005 23:49									#146
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quote: Originally posted by pchang As I said, those stingers quickly became unguided missiles.

I'm not disputing that but temperatures can easily be kept almost constent using one of the world's oldest techniques. You put it in a cave since they tend to have year round low temperatures. A cellor is almost as good if it is deep enough.

	14-05-2005 14:28									#147
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quote: 1) I thought "mujahediin" or however it is spelled simply meant and means "riding men" in Arabic and thus doesn't refer to any specific faction or ideology, but rather is a generic term for crazy jihadists?

Oerdin, can you help me out here with your 1337 language 5|<1|_|_z?

	20-05-2005 15:28									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui He had his own ideas and pressed them on his administration.

Yeah, 'Star Wars'. Pity he wasn't a scientist.

He also had an idea he'd been to Europe and filmed death camps too, Imran.


And according to one Reagan staffer, Ronbo's 'idea' about apartheid South Africa was that he didn't know much about it, but he felt that the whites had to be right.

But then he mistakenly identified African dictators for Founding Fathers, so you can see how some of his 'ideas' might be a trifle left-field.......